Bit coins????

245

Comments

  • meursault
    meursault Posts: 1,433
    TheBigBean wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    https://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-blockchain-technology/

    I've tried to understand, but I still don't fully. I think it's a mindset - I don't get why you should trust "the internet" more than the Bank of England/the Fed. (However little you trust the US government.)

    It depends what you are looking for with trust. Many people consider QE and capital controls a breech of trust, so look for something else.

    Everyone that uses Bitcoin is aware that there could be a collapse in its value by loss of confidence. A lot of this relates to governments (e.g. when it was banned in China), but also cyber security and the current technical problems they have.

    Finally, I think my explanation in terms of gold is sufficient. You don't need to be able understand SHA-256 to use Bitcoin any more than you do when you make a bank transfer which also uses SHA-256.

    Can you explain mtgox and what happened there? I don't understand that.

    I'm not sure if this a serious question, but I will answer. Mtgox ran an exchange, so very much like a gold market. Buyers and sellers would swap their cash for bitcoins. For the convenience of the buyer and sellers Mtgox also allowed the buyers and sellers to deposit cash and bitcoins within their vaults. Much like a bank account / vault. The problem was that Mtgox wasn't as secure as it should have been so someone helped themselves to these deposits. The equivalent of digging a tunnel into a bank vault or slowly pilfering from the till.

    Was serious.

    Why did people need a vault to put bitcoins in?

    Digital vault or wallet. So you can exchange it for 'real' money.
    Superstition sets the whole world in flames; philosophy quenches them.

    Voltaire
  • kingstongraham
    kingstongraham Posts: 25,947
    meursault wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    https://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-blockchain-technology/

    I've tried to understand, but I still don't fully. I think it's a mindset - I don't get why you should trust "the internet" more than the Bank of England/the Fed. (However little you trust the US government.)

    It depends what you are looking for with trust. Many people consider QE and capital controls a breech of trust, so look for something else.

    Everyone that uses Bitcoin is aware that there could be a collapse in its value by loss of confidence. A lot of this relates to governments (e.g. when it was banned in China), but also cyber security and the current technical problems they have.

    Finally, I think my explanation in terms of gold is sufficient. You don't need to be able understand SHA-256 to use Bitcoin any more than you do when you make a bank transfer which also uses SHA-256.

    Can you explain mtgox and what happened there? I don't understand that.

    I'm not sure if this a serious question, but I will answer. Mtgox ran an exchange, so very much like a gold market. Buyers and sellers would swap their cash for bitcoins. For the convenience of the buyer and sellers Mtgox also allowed the buyers and sellers to deposit cash and bitcoins within their vaults. Much like a bank account / vault. The problem was that Mtgox wasn't as secure as it should have been so someone helped themselves to these deposits. The equivalent of digging a tunnel into a bank vault or slowly pilfering from the till.

    Was serious.

    Why did people need a vault to put bitcoins in?

    Digital vault or wallet. So you can exchange it for 'real' money.

    A bank, then?
  • TheBigBean
    TheBigBean Posts: 20,271
    TheBigBean wrote:
    TheBigBean wrote:
    https://blockgeeks.com/guides/what-is-blockchain-technology/

    I've tried to understand, but I still don't fully. I think it's a mindset - I don't get why you should trust "the internet" more than the Bank of England/the Fed. (However little you trust the US government.)

    It depends what you are looking for with trust. Many people consider QE and capital controls a breech of trust, so look for something else.

    Everyone that uses Bitcoin is aware that there could be a collapse in its value by loss of confidence. A lot of this relates to governments (e.g. when it was banned in China), but also cyber security and the current technical problems they have.

    Finally, I think my explanation in terms of gold is sufficient. You don't need to be able understand SHA-256 to use Bitcoin any more than you do when you make a bank transfer which also uses SHA-256.

    Can you explain mtgox and what happened there? I don't understand that.

    I'm not sure if this a serious question, but I will answer. Mtgox ran an exchange, so very much like a gold market. Buyers and sellers would swap their cash for bitcoins. For the convenience of the buyer and sellers Mtgox also allowed the buyers and sellers to deposit cash and bitcoins within their vaults. Much like a bank account / vault. The problem was that Mtgox wasn't as secure as it should have been so someone helped themselves to these deposits. The equivalent of digging a tunnel into a bank vault or slowly pilfering from the till.

    Was serious.

    Why did people need a vault to put bitcoins in?

    With cash you essentially have two storage options: under your bed or in a bank. The first is at risk due to fire and theft and the second due to overlending / bankruptcy. Most people choose the bank option.

    With Bitcoin you have those two options plus two more. The two additional options are in your brain and on your laptop. Ignoring the brain option, the laptop one introduces more risks such as laptop failure, virus etc.

    All bitcoin users were advised to use the under your bed option (cold storage) or laptop with encrypted backup option. The problem was that this required more effort and understandiing so the familiar bank option was often selected. This is what mtgox offered (in addition to its exchange) except without the regulation or security of a proper bank.

    Since then things have improved with greater security at the online storage places and a hardware storage option at home.

    So to answer your question, no one needed to store it with mtgox any more than savers needed to store cash with Northern Rock
  • Morning All.

    So with the recent mental price surge (and a slight dip last night) who's made enough £ for a new bike?

    I'm only into IOTA; the long run.
  • Anyone remember the story of the guy who binned a computer with bit coins stored on the HDD? He bought them when they were worth a few pennies each in the late 90's early 2000's or whenever it was in its infancy. The same coins today are worth about half a million. He was last seen searching his local dump for the computer.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/27/hard-drive-bitcoin-landfill-site

    Man would you be pi$$ed
  • twist83
    twist83 Posts: 761
    I exchanged 0.456 of a Bitcoin in January 2015. I paid around £93.78 or there about, or rather that was the goods value. I sold it in August this year when there was a spike for £3100.

    Only reason I had them as a friend paid me for some bits and it seemed interesting. Looking at the value now, the extra would have been lovely. However hindsight is a wonderful thing and I made a tidy sum by accident.
  • I shed my bitcoins in 2015, made 400% (on a smallish stake) but mad to think it could've been 8,000%.

    I think it's now in proper 'tulip' territory, nice for those who did/can get their cash out before it crumbles, but converting BTC to GBP is still a somewhat tortuous process, and when the sentiment changes & everyone goes into full sell-mode it'll be even worse. Add the new ICO bubble-companies that appear by the hour, FOMO gripping more people every day, it's troublin'.

    What I noticed last night, when the price nosedived from the peak, quite a few BTC exchanges went offline. That is surely a red flag.....when speculators find the exit door shut during a crash, it usually means the exchange is making away with the money. Glad I got out when I did!
  • twist83
    twist83 Posts: 761
    Second on getting BTC back into actual money. Nearly made me cry.
  • kiteloopy
    kiteloopy Posts: 94
    edited November 2017
    Anyone remember the story of the guy who binned a computer with bit coins stored on the HDD? He bought them when they were worth a few pennies each in the late 90's early 2000's or whenever it was in its infancy. The same coins today are worth about half a million. He was last seen searching his local dump for the computer.

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2013/nov/27/hard-drive-bitcoin-landfill-site

    Man would you be pi$$ed

    Today's value; $74,977,500

    Gulp. :shock: :?

    (I think bitcoin started in 07/08 after the crash).
  • Orkneylad wrote:
    I shed my bitcoins in 2015, made 400% (on a smallish stake) but mad to think it could've been 8,000%.

    I think it's now in proper 'tulip' territory, nice for those who did/can get their cash out before it crumbles, but converting BTC to GBP is still a somewhat tortuous process, and when the sentiment changes & everyone goes into full sell-mode it'll be even worse. Add the new ICO bubble-companies that appear by the hour, FOMO gripping more people every day, it's troublin'.

    What I noticed last night, when the price nosedived from the peak, quite a few BTC exchanges went offline. That is surely a red flag.....when speculators find the exit door shut during a crash, it usually means the exchange is making away with the money. Glad I got out when I did!

    I think you might be right. Something might happen soon which will shake value off all coins and in the process, lots of alt coins will disappear completely. Only a few coins that offer actual real-life usability will come out the other side; in my opinion Etherium and IOTA will be in there. Having said that, people are still predict that it will go up; no one has any idea.

    If the exchanges go offline when the first few try to cash out, wont the value remain?
  • kiteloopy wrote:

    I think you might be right. Something might happen soon which will shake value off all coins and in the process, lots of alt coins will disappear completely. Only a few coins that offer actual real-life usability will come out the other side; in my opinion Etherium and IOTA will be in there. Having said that, people are still predict that it will go up; no one has any idea.

    If the exchanges go offline when the first few try to cash out, wont the value remain?

    No the price always seems to update (lower) when the site becomes live again, nasty scenario.

    Trouble with BTC is it's not really fit for scale of mass usage, that's why all the forks as they try to create a 'perfect' working crypto. Etherium, ok better but AFAIK not finite, so any amount can be created in the future, destroying any perceived value in scarcity. And blockchain code is very very simple, this is why it's so easy to make a new alt-coin, pump it via ICO phase, and watch the dosh roll in, ultimately they will all reduce to zero at some point. Lots of rumours about this coin, that coin, which one will be taken up by central banking system etc, personally I think the 'future crypto of choice' is yet to be created, and when it is, it'll be created by the banking system itself. But as you say, no one really knows.

    The average BTC transaction fee is about $10.......Who gets the fee? It goes to the miner who mines the block that includes your transaction. So as far as I can make out, crypto just looks like a vehicle for legalized 'skimming' in a system that eats its own capital.....the logical conclusion of which, is that eventually all the BTC will belong again to the miners who mined it.

    Perhaps this is why most mining is happening in China; 'all your bitcoin are belong to us' scenario.
  • orraloon
    orraloon Posts: 12,508
    Currency: a medium of exchange. A store of value.

    First, yes the coins type things may be used for that.

    Second, hmm. Bubbles go pop. Remember the dotcom thing around the turn of the century?
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,552
    Never invest in anything you do not understand is wise advice

    Yup.

    Retail investment is mainly for muppets.
  • Alex99
    Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    I find it hard to understand where the value in the system is, other than the fact some people deemed the coins to be valuable. I know that applies a lot to hard currency as well, but you can equate the hard work mining a chunk of gold to its perceived value; the hard work of mining of a bitcoin seems to be part of the book-keeping process rather than outputting work, so the value seems much more artificial (not meant in a perjorative way).

    Yeah - there's no more value in a £50 note than a £5 note other than because it's been decided that there is. Whoever came up with the idea of Bitcoins for the electronic world was pretty clever.

    Very interesting init. Conventional cash has value because central authority says it has value. Cryptocurrency has value because a less well defined group of people agree that it has value. Both can fail, but we're more used to the idea of the central authority.

    The reaction of banks that it's a scam is hardly surprising. Publicly, they're in the denial phase. Privately, they probably see that they are at serious risk but can't do much about it. It's a bit reminiscent of the electronic music/internet revolution where the record labels business model was disrupted and all they could do was complain, make increasingly silly laws and watch it happen. This is probably going to be a lot slower than the music example, but still a very vivid example of how the internet is disrupting another institution.
  • woops:

    https://www.coindesk.com/coinbase-order ... 000-users/
    "Coinbase must now provide the tax agency with the name, address, taxpayer identification numbers and date of birth of customers associated with these accounts, a court filing states."

    HMRC will likely follow suit at some point, they'll be going after the exchange customers, not the Corps.....same as it ever was. Everyone trades/buys crypto over an exchange, all they'll have to do is follow the footsteps in the snow. I've always thought it somewhat naive to think this technology is a foolproof way to avoid government, the State always wins.
  • Alex99 wrote:
    I find it hard to understand where the value in the system is, other than the fact some people deemed the coins to be valuable. I know that applies a lot to hard currency as well, but you can equate the hard work mining a chunk of gold to its perceived value; the hard work of mining of a bitcoin seems to be part of the book-keeping process rather than outputting work, so the value seems much more artificial (not meant in a perjorative way).

    Yeah - there's no more value in a £50 note than a £5 note other than because it's been decided that there is. Whoever came up with the idea of Bitcoins for the electronic world was pretty clever.

    Very interesting init. Conventional cash has value because central authority says it has value. Cryptocurrency has value because a less well defined group of people agree that it has value. Both can fail, but we're more used to the idea of the central authority.

    The reaction of banks that it's a scam is hardly surprising. Publicly, they're in the denial phase. Privately, they probably see that they are at serious risk but can't do much about it. It's a bit reminiscent of the electronic music/internet revolution where the record labels business model was disrupted and all they could do was complain, make increasingly silly laws and watch it happen. This is probably going to be a lot slower than the music example, but still a very vivid example of how the internet is disrupting another institution.

    or it is a scam that won't exist in 12 months.

    For anybody wishing to make this sort of risky investment work out your target price and sell when you hit it. Don't be afraid to leave some profit for the next guy.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,552
    Just remember there's no such things as a free lunch, and getting a few million for an ICO for just offering a few lines of code is gonna bite people in the ass.

    And in bitcoin there's zero legal recourse to get your money back if things go wrong, so you better be sure you know what you're doing.
  • Alex99 wrote:
    I find it hard to understand where the value in the system is, other than the fact some people deemed the coins to be valuable. I know that applies a lot to hard currency as well, but you can equate the hard work mining a chunk of gold to its perceived value; the hard work of mining of a bitcoin seems to be part of the book-keeping process rather than outputting work, so the value seems much more artificial (not meant in a perjorative way).

    Yeah - there's no more value in a £50 note than a £5 note other than because it's been decided that there is. Whoever came up with the idea of Bitcoins for the electronic world was pretty clever.

    Very interesting init. Conventional cash has value because central authority says it has value. Cryptocurrency has value because a less well defined group of people agree that it has value. Both can fail, but we're more used to the idea of the central authority.

    The reaction of banks that it's a scam is hardly surprising. Publicly, they're in the denial phase. Privately, they probably see that they are at serious risk but can't do much about it. It's a bit reminiscent of the electronic music/internet revolution where the record labels business model was disrupted and all they could do was complain, make increasingly silly laws and watch it happen. This is probably going to be a lot slower than the music example, but still a very vivid example of how the internet is disrupting another institution.

    or it is a scam that won't exist in 12 months.

    For anybody wishing to make this sort of risky investment work out your target price and sell when you hit it. Don't be afraid to leave some profit for the next guy.

    It seems to be doing well for a scam that’ll be gone in 12 months. To answer a question asked further up the thread, why does anything have ‘value ‘ attached? Why are diamonds so sought after? There are more diamonds now than ever yet they cost more and more. They never lose their value . The vast majority of them are just aesthetically pleasing bits of shiny crystal. Bitcoins are valued because they are obviously useful. Maybe not in the circle of those who don’t understand but there is a dark hidden world where real traceable money is a lot harder to move about than virtual numbers held in cyberspace. It has it’s innocent uses but we all know the real reason it is so valuable. Drugs, guns, sex trafficking, god knows what else probably all use this to cover their underground networks. They will keep it valuable as long as they can continue getting away with it.
  • bianchimoon
    bianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    There's a thread on Moneysavingexpert.com forums in the pensions and annuities section, started by a guy who wants to cash in all his existing pensions to buy bitcoins
    Is there ANY way to withdraw my whole defined contribution pension plan (from a company I used to work for many years back) - it is worth about £24,000 in long term equities (split between UK, Global, and Emerging Market) - and put the whole lot into Bitcoin? I am age 51 and virtually certain that Bitcoin will by end of 2019 be worth over £100,000 per coin. With the central bank printing presses running overtime as at no time in history, and them buying up stocks to inflate prices to a massive bubble again unlike any ever seen before - it has to be INSANITY to have £24,000 invested in the stock market for the next few years whilst Bitcoin is on the cusp of becoming a global monetary store of value and currency. By contrast the pensions bubble is going to completely explode.

    I don't want to lose out on £400,000GBP that this will be worth in 2019 - so is there any way to save this money - how do I get the money out of the pension scheme, where I know its going to be worth virtually nothing by the time I retire if I don't take action ?

    Any advice from pension experts much appreciated - thank you.

    very interesting in the context of this thread
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho ... ?t=5748603
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • There's a thread on Moneysavingexpert.com forums in the pensions and annuities section, started by a guy who wants to cash in all his existing pensions to buy bitcoins
    Is there ANY way to withdraw my whole defined contribution pension plan (from a company I used to work for many years back) - it is worth about £24,000 in long term equities (split between UK, Global, and Emerging Market) - and put the whole lot into Bitcoin? I am age 51 and virtually certain that Bitcoin will by end of 2019 be worth over £100,000 per coin. With the central bank printing presses running overtime as at no time in history, and them buying up stocks to inflate prices to a massive bubble again unlike any ever seen before - it has to be INSANITY to have £24,000 invested in the stock market for the next few years whilst Bitcoin is on the cusp of becoming a global monetary store of value and currency. By contrast the pensions bubble is going to completely explode.

    I don't want to lose out on £400,000GBP that this will be worth in 2019 - so is there any way to save this money - how do I get the money out of the pension scheme, where I know its going to be worth virtually nothing by the time I retire if I don't take action ?

    Any advice from pension experts much appreciated - thank you.

    very interesting in the context of this thread
    http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/sho ... ?t=5748603

    You see he has done his research and calculated that Bitcoin will be worth £100k by the end of 2019. So long as he sells when it hits his target price then what could possibly go wrong? Most unsophisticated investors would not sell as they would fear missing out on future gains.

    The funniest part is that he thinks this is relevant - in long term equities (split between UK, Global, and Emerging Market
  • ben@31
    ben@31 Posts: 2,327
    I can't remember if it was Bitcoin or a online shop that used them called Silk Road, but I once watched a fascinating documentary where the inventor went to prison because the online service he created was used for money laundering, drugs and arms dealing. Interesting he never bought or sold these himself, but he was still prosecuted as an accessory who profited from it.

    The criminals loved Bitcoin and Silk Road as both were untraceable. A customer could order some dodgy stuff online and the seller just pops it in a jiffy bag and 9 out of 10 times it will get past the Post Office. They'd have no idea who the sender was.
    "The Prince of Wales is now the King of France" - Calton Kirby
  • ben@31 wrote:
    I can't remember if it was Bitcoin or a online shop that used them called Silk Road, but I once watched a fascinating documentary where the inventor went to prison because the online service he created was used for money laundering, drugs and arms dealing. Interesting he never bought or sold these himself, but he was still prosecuted as an accessory who profited from it.

    Banking on bitcoin is what I think your talking about. Its on netflix.
  • socrates
    socrates Posts: 453
    There was a conversation on the Jeremy Vine Show with Kamel Amhed who explained a lot about Bitcoins. 21 million only will be issued and there are already approxinately 16 million already taken. Your Bitcoin is actually a computer code which requires a powerful processor to gain access. If you were unlucky to lose the code your coins are gone forever. Some person in USA had bought a few hundred thousand dollars worth some time ago and lost his hard drive. The current value of his coins would be $100 million. He has no way to ever recover this money without his missing hard drive.
  • Alex99
    Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    Alex99 wrote:
    I find it hard to understand where the value in the system is, other than the fact some people deemed the coins to be valuable. I know that applies a lot to hard currency as well, but you can equate the hard work mining a chunk of gold to its perceived value; the hard work of mining of a bitcoin seems to be part of the book-keeping process rather than outputting work, so the value seems much more artificial (not meant in a perjorative way).

    Yeah - there's no more value in a £50 note than a £5 note other than because it's been decided that there is. Whoever came up with the idea of Bitcoins for the electronic world was pretty clever.

    Very interesting init. Conventional cash has value because central authority says it has value. Cryptocurrency has value because a less well defined group of people agree that it has value. Both can fail, but we're more used to the idea of the central authority.

    The reaction of banks that it's a scam is hardly surprising. Publicly, they're in the denial phase. Privately, they probably see that they are at serious risk but can't do much about it. It's a bit reminiscent of the electronic music/internet revolution where the record labels business model was disrupted and all they could do was complain, make increasingly silly laws and watch it happen. This is probably going to be a lot slower than the music example, but still a very vivid example of how the internet is disrupting another institution.

    or it is a scam that won't exist in 12 months.

    For anybody wishing to make this sort of risky investment work out your target price and sell when you hit it. Don't be afraid to leave some profit for the next guy.

    It seems to be doing well for a scam that’ll be gone in 12 months. To answer a question asked further up the thread, why does anything have ‘value ‘ attached? Why are diamonds so sought after? There are more diamonds now than ever yet they cost more and more. They never lose their value . The vast majority of them are just aesthetically pleasing bits of shiny crystal. Bitcoins are valued because they are obviously useful. Maybe not in the circle of those who don’t understand but there is a dark hidden world where real traceable money is a lot harder to move about than virtual numbers held in cyberspace. It has it’s innocent uses but we all know the real reason it is so valuable. Drugs, guns, sex trafficking, god knows what else probably all use this to cover their underground networks. They will keep it valuable as long as they can continue getting away with it.

    It's also seeing increasing adoption in developing nations because mobile technology has reached a lot of places before banks and land lines.
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,552
    http://uk.businessinsider.com/flash-cra ... ry-2017-12


    Aaaahahahaha, muppets.
    A "flash crash" on the world's biggest cryptocurrency exchange has left customers demanding answers and refunds, with many claiming to have lost thousands of dollars.

    The price of cryptocurrencies NEO, OMG, and ETP crashed as much as 90% in minutes on the Bitfinex exchange on Wednesday before quickly bouncing back to former levels.

    The price crash led Bitfinex, the world's largest cryptocurrency exchange by daily volume, to close the positions of many traders who had placed leveraged bets on these digital currencies. Leveraged trading involves borrowing money to increase exposure. It can lead to outsized gains compared to how much you deposit, but also outsized losses.
  • haydenm
    haydenm Posts: 2,997
    Never invest in anything you do not understand is wise advice

    It rather depends on what level of understanding you need though. Not knowing what bitcoins are might not be the best starting point though as you suggest...
  • tailwindhome
    tailwindhome Posts: 18,786
    christel quek

    @ladyxtel
    Bitcoin:
    $0000 - $1000: 1789 days
    * * *
    $5000- $6000: 8 days
    $6000- $7000: 13 days
    $7000- $8000: 14 days
    $8000- $9000: 9 days
    $9000-$10000: 2 days
    $10000-$11000: 1 day
    $11000-$12000: 6 days
    $12,000-$13,000: 17 hours
    $13,000-$14,000: 3 hours
    “New York has the haircuts, London has the trousers, but Belfast has the reason!
  • As much as I'm enjoying the ride, a sizeable correction has to come at some point... Hopefully soonish.
  • And 2.5 weeks later....£107,859,000........I've been watching RT since about 2012 and Max Keiser has always banged on about them, but I could never get my head around the idea (why any different from any other fiat currency etc).... Wish I'd put the £20k I've overpaid the mortgage into them now but hindsight is a great thing eh?!!
    It's still a threat to the banking system so I'm expecting a bubble leading to catastrophic collapse to try and finish this threatening young upstart off...
  • rick_chasey
    rick_chasey Posts: 71,552
    And 2.5 weeks later....£107,859,000........I've been watching RT since about 2012 and Max Keiser has always banged on about them, but I could never get my head around the idea (why any different from any other fiat currency etc).... Wish I'd put the £20k I've overpaid the mortgage into them now but hindsight is a great thing eh?!!
    It's still a threat to the banking system so I'm expecting a bubble leading to catastrophic collapse to try and finish this threatening young upstart off...

    Chances are you would have used Mt Gox and had it nicked had you bought it then.