Shimano Di2 Rear Derailleur Misalignment Issue

MrModenait

41 days ago I brought home a new bicycle (see the model here), which at the moment has travelled around 1600 kilometres (1000 miles). However, ever since I bought it I have been experiencing some issues with the rear derailleur on the bicycle, which is part of the Shimano Ultegra 6800 Di2 groupset. To make a long story short, there are not enough "micro-steps" to align the derailleur to the centre of the cassette.
I've already looked into how to solve this issue, and in this post I wish to outline the different steps I intend to take which might solve the issue. However, I need your guidance to determine in which order to execute these steps, which steps are futile, and which steps I have not thought about.
In any case, it would be wise to start with a detailed description of the problem, so that other cyclists who have had the same problem can offer their suggestions. For the sake of making things easier to understand, I'll use "1" to denote the lightest gear (largest sprocket, closest to the wheel) and "11" to denote the heaviest gear (smallest sprocket, furthest out). It's going to be a long description, but I want my readers to have the bigger picture in front of their eyes.

The Problem
As previously stated, I am having problems aligning the rear derailleur to the centre of the cassette. Because there are not enough micro-steps, I am faced with a choice between two equally annoying outcomes.
First, if I set the rear derailleur to micro-step "0" with the Adjustment Mode, I am able to index the gears well and eliminate noise, but the rear derailleur does not shift into the heaviest gear (#11). The limit screw is definitely not obstructing the derailleur (I can get the derailleur onto #11 in Adjustment Mode). Instead, the derailleur itself chooses not move beyond gear #10 despite my shifting commands, as if it believed it's already in the heaviest gear. This means that I can only utilise gears #1 to #10.
Secondly, if I use Adjustment Mode to move the derailleur setting outwards by a whole gear width, I am able to to use the whole cassette from #1 to #11. However, I need to use all of the micro-steps to get the derailleur to move a whole gear width, so that I reach micro-step 16. Even so, it is not enough, because Adjustment Mode cannot push the derailleur far enough to align the chain with the new gear. I'm estimating that I would need an imaginary micro-step 18-19 to get it indexed. With the second option I can use all my gears, but not without the clicking sound that comes with a misaligned derailleur.
It's worth noting that if the micro-steps continued past step 16, I wouldn't have this issue anymore. I hope you can understand why from my meticulous accounts. If the explanation sounds confusing, I can recommend reading this post, even though it features the inverse problem (where micro-step 16 gives perfect shifting but no #11 availability, and where micro-step 0 gives rubbish shifting but all gears).

Prior Resolution Attempts
Before I get showered with lots of comments about what I could do, allow me to list two measures I have already taken.
First, I have checked the straightness of the rear hanger. I am aware of its potential impact on shifting (I learnt it the hard way after I slipped in the garage in October 2016), and I also know that just because a bike is new, it doesn't mean that the rear hanger is fully straight. Nevertheless, I checked the rear hanger with a ruler, and it looks straight enough – see a picture of my inspection here.
I have also completed the usual steps for indexing a Shimano Di2 derailleur, that is to say, moving the derailleur until a clicking noise is heard, and then baking off 4 micro-steps. This does not solve the issue, which depending on my choice of configuration, is either losing sprocket #11 or not being able to move the derailleur far out enough in Adjustment Mode.
I took the bicycle to the store where I bought it once before, using my warranty; the salesman ended the clicking noise by adjusting the front and rear derailleur limits, but the root problem (the misaligned derailleur) was never solved. I accepted his explanation (that the derailleur had to be as far out as possible to receive the typical in-built over-shift correction at sprocket #11). Now I have moved country to study at University, so either I fix this by myself, or I take a trip to Sweden's expensive bicycle mechanics...

Proposed Solutions
Let me now list the measures I intend to take, so that you can offer comments on whether my procedure is right.

1. Moving the derailleur to sprocket #1, and then triggering Crash Protection Mode to reset the indexing. As the derailleur moves outwards, I hope it will recognise that the centre of the cassette is at #5, not at #4 (I infer that is what it is doing now, which could explain why it is not reaching #11 when using micro-step "0").
2. Moving the rear derailleur to micro-step "0" in Adjustment Mode (which disables sprocket #11), then moving the limit screw for the outer limit even further outwards. This assumes that the limit screws can 'convince' the computer that another sprocket (#11) indeed exists.
3. Removing the rear derailleur and inserting a 1-2mm washer between the hanger and the derailleur,
   as suggested in a different discussion on this forum.

So, is this the right order in which to tackle things? Is there something I have not thought of? Or would I be able to access currently-forbidden micro-steps if I use the Shimano E-tube software?

meanredspider

I couldn't face reading all of that but there are plenty of micro steps to adjust your RD so, if you can't do it, I suggest you have the hanger alignment checked or buy the tool and check it yourself.

cougie

You can afford di2 but not afford a mechanics time ?
Ideally you'd go back to the shop- this isn't possible now - could you maybe email them ? They fixed it before - so maybe they can just tell you what they did.

Maybe someone has had the same issue and can advise but usually it's pretty easy to set up and use.

MrModenait

Regarding Meanredspider's comment, I'll consider checking the alignment of the hanger, perhaps starting with a homemade tool rather than a bought one (they are quite expensive).
Cougie asks a good question, but I think we're reasoning in different ways. I chose to spend extra money on the Di2 at the expense of spending that extra money on visiting mechanics, because I believed Di2 would be easier to take care of by yourself (that's debatable, I won't settle this dispute here). While I can afford a mechanic, my cycling budget has been too a large extent consumed by the bicycle purchase. In addition to that, I would like to learn to take care of these things myself, hence my choice to do it myself.
Returning to the topic, and to the question of emailing the store, I was there myself to witness what the mechanic did in the store – he shifted the rear derailleur up and down several times, but spent more time getting the front derailleur aligned. It's true that he solved the noise, but I would like to solve the root problem (the misaligned hanger).
In any case I thank you all for the advice, I'll continue looking for solutions.

trailflow

I read the latest Di2 R9170 RD's on certain setting configurations in the etube software, if are running (in the settings) a front chainring combination with more than a 14 tooth difference (34/50). The RD will automatically be blocked and not shift into the 11t cog,

Read page 24 here
http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... start=1845

Im just wondering if they have added this feature to the older 6870 RD's via an update ? or have you ever updated the software ?

Does it not shift into the 11t cog only on the small chainring ? or is it on the big chain ring aswell ?

MrModenait

I've hooked up my system to the E-Tube Project to get a deeper understanding of the situation. As suggested by Trailflow, I checked the settings for the chainrings, but they were correct: 52-36 at the front, 11-28 at the back. Further revelations came on the page with the Rear Derailleur Adjustment. When I, using my PC, set the derailleur to sprocket #5, micro-step 0, my rear derailleur actually ends up around sprocket #4. There is clearly an inconsistency between the real world and the system's perception of it.
Moreover, when I tried to digitally shift to sprocket #11, I could see how what the system thinks is sprocket #11 is actually sprocket #10 in real life. And the interesting part... Whereas setting it to sprocket #2 gets me to the real-life sprocket #1, moving inside to sprocket #1 results in no change: the limit screws stop the derailleur from jamming the chain between the cassette and the spokes, and the software displays "Programming..." for an indefinite time.
Triggering Crash Protection Mode didn't change anything, so I need to decide what to do next. There's another digital fix I could use, or I could choose the mechanical methods suggested earlier. The digital fix was suggested by GTPilot on the Australian Cycling Forums. He suggested "tricking" the rear derailleur by powering the system down and then turning it on again, while using the limit screws to get the derailleur to back off. The physical, real-life methods involve checking the hanger alignment, or installing a 1-2mm washer between the hanger and the derailleur.
I'll keep you posted on what I do, but please keep the suggestions flowing!

pirnie

MrModenait wrote:

When I, using my PC, set the derailleur to sprocket #5, micro-step 0, my rear derailleur actually ends up around sprocket #4. There is clearly an inconsistency between the real world and the system's perception of it.

This screams hanger alignment to me. Shouldn't take long (or cost much) for a bike shop to check. Just get it done. Is all this stress and time really worth it when a decent shop should be able to help you very easily?

trailflow

MrModenait wrote:

the limit screws stop the derailleur from jamming the chain between the cassette and the spokes

When at either end of the cassette, do the limit screws ever touch the RD stops ? Because they should not if they are.

The low limit screw in particular is the most important, as needs to be as close as possible to the stop but not touching. If it is, that will introduce poor shifting or at worst the safety feature will kick in and it will automatically shift to the next cog to protect the servo.

The high limit screw should also be loosened 1 full turn (from the 11t cog) to allow over shift.

If both limits screws are wide open, and the RD still does not align with the 11t cog. But is still giving you all 11 gears.
Then the only thing i can think of is a problem with the servo or the software/firmwre/hardware has a bug or gone haywire.

Also have you checked the cassette lockring is fully tight ? Does it have any play when tightened ?

And check the the freehub for any play, and check the locknuts are tight.

kingstonian

I had a problem with my Di2, a mechanic at the LBS checked the rear hanger and 2 mins later all was sorted (it had slightly bent, he was able to bend it back into shape). After I insisted I pay him something for sorting it, he reluctantly took a fiver.

pilot_pete

I suggest you download the dealer manual from the Shimano website and set up again from scratch after making sure your derailleur hanger is straight using a proper tool. This works faultlessly for me.

PP

MrModenait

pirnie wrote:

Shouldn't take long (or cost much) for a bike shop to check. Just get it done. Is all this stress and time really worth it when a decent shop should be able to help you very easily?

You have all pointed out that I am displaying an odd distrust towards bicycle repair shops here in Sweden. The truth is that I too would have gone to a bicycle repair shop, had they not been so expensive. Let's digress from the actual discussion for a moment to describe the problem. It began two years ago...

In August 2015 I "screwed up" the rear derailleur setting while washing my bicycle, so I took my bicycle to the nearest bicycle repair shop and got it fixed – for free. However, on the 20th of August 2015 I dropped the screw holding the rear shifting cable, and when I installed a replacement I was unsuccessful at getting it right (I lacked experience and a smart way of suspending my bike). On the 25th of August I returned to the bicycle shop and asked to have it adjusted – to my surprise, I was charged 250 SEK ($30.31). Not having any other prices to compare against, I naively accepted this price. However, when in November 2015 I was able to get a broken rear shifter cable replaced – and adjusted perfectly – for €5 ($5.83, new cable included), I began to sense that I had made a mistake during the summer.

But this had been no scam. The price list on a different bicycle shop states that, at their store, adjusting the brakes costs 145 SEK ($17.58); indexing an 11-speed derailleur costs 190 SEK ($23.04); fixing a flat tire costs 195 SEK ($23.64, tire included) and truing a wheel costs 300 SEK ($36.37). You can (figuratively-speaking) feel your wallet burning as you read this list! This also explains why all my mates equip themselves with heaps of tools and complete bicycle maintenance all on their own.

And bending the hanger? The first bicycle store said it would cost between 200 and 250 SEK ($24.25 to $30.31). Hence I would've loved to get the hanger straightened by myself, but that now Trailflow mentioned the numerous factors that might be at play, I think I'll ask my father for cash... Please don't judge, I haven't even moved out to start university yet so I have no income at the moment.

cougie

Maybe get a part time job at the bike shop ? Learn some skills and get a bit of cash and experience ?

I'd love to know how you messed up the gears washing your bike?

MrModenait

cougie wrote:

Maybe get a part time job at the bike shop ? Learn some skills and get a bit of cash and experience ? I'd love to know how you messed up the gears washing your bike?

Nice idea about working at the bicycle shop – I'll think about that for next summer. (My university discourages working part-time during the course.) Regarding how I screwed up the gears, I can't remember exactly how it happened, but I think the cable anchor bolt was starting to loosen at that time, and when I accidentally pulled the cable housing sideways it came loose, and the shifter cable came loose too as a result. My fault.

pilot_pete

Once agin I would encourage you to download the Shimano dealer manual for your groupset/ components. It describes, with pictures, exactly how to set up and adjust their components. It is simple to follow, especially if you have any practical skills at all.

Beg, borrow or ask on this forum if any users have a derailleur alignment tool that they would either lend to you, or that you could bring your bike around to check the hanger alignment with. I have one, but I guess popping round is a bit far out of your way! It is a 5 minute job to check and adjust a hangar with the proper tool. I am yet to see how else you could adjust it with any degree of accuracy without the proper tool or a home made equivalent.

PP

MrModenait

Just to keep you updated on how this went, two weeks ago I visited a friend, and using the DAG-2 from Park Tools we were able to confirm that the derailleur was indeed bent. After bending it vertically I now only need to set the micro-step to +13 in order to get a silent transmission. As the derailleur was also bent horizontally (with an offset of about 4 cm at the edge of the wheel), I wrote to my store to ask for a new one free of charge, which I'll pick up when I visit there again. I'd like to thank everybody for their suggestions in any case, I learnt a lot about my gears from your posts!

meanredspider

Just to confirm - was it the hanger that was bent or the derailleur? I assuming the hanger from what you've written. Definitely a plan to replace it.

MrModenait

Yes, it was the hänger. För now the shifting is fine and I won't complain, even though +13 is still an extreme setting. If it starts to annoy me again I'll replace it myself.

pilot_pete

;-) great news...!

PP