Wheels Full Carbon or Carbon with Alloy braking surface (Mavic Cosmic Pro)

mikeyj28

Hi,

Apologies if this has at some stage been discussed in length. I have had a look at a few pages and not found anything so I shall ask away.

I am looking at getting some carbon wheels but while researching I have a few questions. I realise there are issues regarding braking efficiency. I do not have discs and am using standard rim brakes.

Is there a lot of truth in the poor performance with full carbon rims (taking into account using the correct pads)?
Also, is a non carbon rim a good alternative? Or something that is there to appeal to people who want more assurance with effective braking and still having carbon wheels?
I have seen the Mavic Cosmic Pro w45mm deep Wheels and am considering them. Am I wasting my money on these or are they a good wheel to have?

Reasons being: They have the non carbon braking surface, so can use standard pads and should be more effective in the wet, will hopefully be a bit stronger (than full carbon wheels) if I hit a pothole, the aestehtics and the price (sub £800) is also a major factor.

My budget won't go to £1600-2000 for some nice ZIPP wheels, hence, I have been drawn to these.
I am 6ft1 , come from a strong MTB XC racing background but am getting into the road scene a bit and weigh 69kg.
Any constructive advice would be greatly welcomed.

Thanks

Bobbinogs

What kind of riding do you actually do and what are you hoping that the wheels will do for you?

A lot of what you have picked up is just some generalisations so try and narrow down your important factors first, then find the right wheel...which may or may not be carbon. For example, if you are looking for a sunny day wheelset, does a slightly impaired braking performance in the wet matter? If it does, then certain brake tracks give excellent wet weather braking...but may be the wheels aren't right in the first place...

rowlers

For what its worth, I gambled on a set of chinese 38mm clinchers.. I am delighted with them. They brake as well as any alloy rim in the dry and I'm seriously impressed with them in the wet (was caught out in the lakes, sunny on the morn and p|ssing down in the afternoon!).

mikeyj28

Bobbinogs wrote:

What kind of riding do you actually do and what are you hoping that the wheels will do for you?

A lot of what you have picked up is just some generalisations so try and narrow down your important factors first, then find the right wheel...which may or may not be carbon. For example, if you are looking for a sunny day wheelset, does a slightly impaired braking performance in the wet matter? If it does, then certain brake tracks give excellent wet weather braking...but may be the wheels aren't right in the first place...

On the road bike I do a lot of training miles on my own, I have joined a club recently and go on a lot of runs with them and would like to enter the odd sportive and maybe race if the bug really gets to me. I am still not going to abandon the MTB.

Yes, I agree with narrowing down the important factors and what I want. Am I correct in saying that an alloy braking surface would provide a better overall braking surface? I won't throw my current Fulcrum 5 wheels as I plan on keeping them as a winter set.

mikeyj28

rowlers wrote:

For what its worth, I gambled on a set of chinese 38mm clinchers.. I am delighted with them. They brake as well as any alloy rim in the dry and I'm seriously impressed with them in the wet (was caught out in the lakes, sunny on the morn and p|ssing down in the afternoon!).

Do you find that they are a noticeable step up from your previous wheel set (providing they were inferior)?
Just how poor is the performance in the wet?

angry_bird

Are these going to be a "best" set of wheels for nicer days or be used in all weathers?

mikeyj28

Angry Bird wrote:

Are these going to be a "best" set of wheels for nicer days or be used in all weathers?

I would go along the lines of best set for nicer days. Although i would not change them if there was slight rain forecast at some point during a ride. Definitely not a winter or autumn wheel.

angry_bird

mikeyj28 wrote:

Angry Bird wrote:

Are these going to be a "best" set of wheels for nicer days or be used in all weathers?

I would go along the lines of best set for nicer days. Although i would not change them if there was slight rain forecast at some point during a ride. Definitely not a winter or autumn wheel.

If full carbon can be found within your budget and is lighter (which it probably will be) then I'd go for that. I'd not be worried about strength personally- I'm around your weight and give mine a proper battering and they're fine, and if you're mostly going to be riding in the dry with the odd bit of rain I wouldn't worry about their wet weather performance.

Also, it's a 2 minute job to swap brake pads out for ally/carbon which is what I do if I'm racing in the wet and want a bit more confidence (mostly in my tyres that is!)

StillGoing

Having had full carbon aero wheels and got caught in a rain deluge during a 100 mile ride, I say stick with an alloy braking track. I used rain specific braking pads and it was still poor. The wheels were great in the dry, nice and light for an aero wheel (handbuilt from Somerset) but get caught in the rain...

Having a bike with the rear brake under the BB meant changing brake blocks was a PITB too.

thegreatdivide

Just back from the Alps. Out of a group of 26 folk descending off the back of the Col des Aravis in the pissing rain, not a single carbon rimmed rider plummeted to their death due to poor braking. It’s 2017 not 2007. The alloy rim with carbon fairing is a dinosaur and no longer required – even for the larger rider.

ugo.santalucia

thegreatdivide wrote:

Out of a group of 26 folk

Are you so very sociable or was this a pensioners coach trip to the alps?

I can see it coming "Silver carbon travels"

Bobbinogs

ugo.santalucia wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Out of a group of 26 folk

Are you so very sociable or was this a pensioners coach trip to the alps?

I can see it coming "Silver carbon travels"

That will be us lot doing audaxes in years to come...

ugo.santalucia

Bobbinogs wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Out of a group of 26 folk

Are you so very sociable or was this a pensioners coach trip to the alps?

I can see it coming "Silver carbon travels"

That will be us lot doing audaxes in years to come...

MInd your language, you are talking to a "Randonneur 1000" awardee

ugo.santalucia

Back yto topic... I agree they are dinosaurs, but if having an alloy brake track gives the OP peace of mind and more confidence, I really don't see any negative in going that route

rowlers

mikeyj28 wrote:

rowlers wrote:

For what its worth, I gambled on a set of chinese 38mm clinchers.. I am delighted with them. They brake as well as any alloy rim in the dry and I'm seriously impressed with them in the wet (was caught out in the lakes, sunny on the morn and p|ssing down in the afternoon!).

Do you find that they are a noticeable step up from your previous wheel set (providing they were inferior)?
Just how poor is the performance in the wet?

Previous set were Archtype on Miche, and yes I can feel a difference. Only slightly lighter (200g or so?), but they roll a little "nicer" and of course they look cools as ****
The braking performance in the wet is seriously decent, I have no concerns at all..

indyp

A local bike shop have the Mavic Cosmic Pro Carbon SL available to demo and I think this is across the UK so worth looking for a nearby dealer. I did so a few weeks ago and I was very impressed with braking in the dry. They were sharp when needed and modulating was very good when descending. Unfortunately, I had them during dry weather so never got a chance to use them in heavy rain only light showers.

Comparing them to alloy surface - braking wasn't as good as it is on my Kysrium Elite, but not far off. I still prefer the 'feel' of brake blocks on alloy surface though, not sure why but a perfectly set brakes have solid crisp sound.

What I did notice though was how quickly the brake block wore! I was given the Swisstops yellow and the wear was clear to see, plus my brake calipers were covered in yellow dust. It could have been that I was the first to use both, but it was a bit of a surprise to see.

Also I didn't get on well with the very loud freehub! I like to have a chat on group rides and they were so loud I found it difficult to hear what was being said! Saying that, I'd imagine they really are made for racing not a group of chatting cyclists.

Nice wheels though

StillGoing

thegreatdivide wrote:

Just back from the Alps. Out of a group of 26 folk descending off the back of the Col des Aravis in the pissing rain, not a single carbon rimmed rider plummeted to their death due to poor braking. It’s 2017 not 2007. The alloy rim with carbon fairing is a dinosaur and no longer required – even for the larger rider.

Interesting as my carbon wheels were built 2015. I'm sure the braking track hasn't improved that much in two years?

mamba80

philthy3 wrote:

thegreatdivide wrote:

Just back from the Alps. Out of a group of 26 folk descending off the back of the Col des Aravis in the pissing rain, not a single carbon rimmed rider plummeted to their death due to poor braking. It’s 2017 not 2007. The alloy rim with carbon fairing is a dinosaur and no longer required – even for the larger rider.

Interesting as my carbon wheels were built 2015. I'm sure the braking track hasn't improved that much in two years?

I ve just come back from the Pyrenees, it rained quite a bit and i used carbon tubs on several 100 mile rides and braking was great wet or dry on long fast 10 or 12km descents, far better than any alloy wheel i ve used.

the wheels are Vittoria Qurano's and campag red pads, toed in 1mm.
when they were first introduced, Merlin were doing them for 600, i wish i d bought 2 pairs, great wheels.

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

the wheels are Vittoria Qurano's and campag red pads, toed in 1mm.
when they were first introduced, Merlin were doing them for 600, i wish i d bought 2 pairs, great wheels.

Interesting that Vittoria only rate them as 6/10 for braking. Seems crazy to me that a £1500 set of wheels is a wear part.

mamba80

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

the wheels are Vittoria Qurano's and campag red pads, toed in 1mm.
when they were first introduced, Merlin were doing them for 600, i wish i d bought 2 pairs, great wheels.

Interesting that Vittoria only rate them as 6/10 for braking. Seems crazy to me that a £1500 set of wheels is a wear part.

Dont buy them or any other hi end bike wheel.... or even a bike if your worried about wear and tear.... lol

cycleclinic

I use mine all year round. I pull the brake lever and i stop. Alloy brake tracks will wear at a quicker rate than the carbon brake track. It makes no sense i know but that the way it is. So given the braking is as good with the right pads as alloy rims there is no reason to have the hybrid option unless you are going to brake from the top to the bottom of an alp in which case use different wheels.

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

Dont buy them or any other hi end bike wheel.... or even a bike if your worried about wear and tear.... lol

No, I'll just buy a bike that's designed properly

ugo.santalucia

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Dont buy them or any other hi end bike wheel.... or even a bike if your worried about wear and tear.... lol

No, I'll just buy a bike that's designed properly

Yes, but this is not YET ANOTHER thread on the benefits of disc brakes, so just give it a cut...

meanredspider

ugo.santalucia wrote:

meanredspider wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Dont buy them or any other hi end bike wheel.... or even a bike if your worried about wear and tear.... lol

No, I'll just buy a bike that's designed properly

Yes, but this is not YET ANOTHER thread on the benefits of disc brakes, so just give it a cut...

Touchy! Never mentioned them - but if there was ever a thread....

stueys

Interesting, I've got a set of Enve 4.5's (gen 1), the braking is fine in the dry but fairly poor in the wet. Certainly you are adjusting your riding on steep descents. The braking performance on my c24's with swisstop pads is a significant step up from the enve's in both dry conditions and especially wet.

I've got a couple of friends who are riding the gen 2 brake track, they all say that breaking is fine in both wet and dry. So likely that the very latest wheels are improved, but still suspect that good old alu rims with swissstop pads are difficult to beat without going discs.

mamba80

Stueys wrote:

Interesting, I've got a set of Enve 4.5's (gen 1), the braking is fine in the dry but fairly poor in the wet. Certainly you are adjusting your riding on steep descents. The braking performance on my c24's with swisstop pads is a significant step up from the enve's in both dry conditions and especially wet.

I've got a couple of friends who are riding the gen 2 brake track, they all say that breaking is fine in both wet and dry. So likely that the very latest wheels are improved, but still suspect that good old alu rims with swissstop pads are difficult to beat without going discs.

i ve F zero's and C24's and tried a variety of pads and yep they can be good but imho they are no where near as good as Carbon rims.

As for wear, i ve done about 4k miles and there is no wear at all, Carbon pads tend to be very soft and wear long before the rim but would i use them as a day to day wheel? no, there again i dont use hi end alloy either.

but like all factory wheels, damage a rim in a crash or pot hole and it can be uneconomical to repair, this applies to rim or disc wheels.

MRS... the OP hasnt a disc frame and considering he has a limited budget, its hardly likely he can buy a new bike c/w hydraulic disc's & presumably DI2 as an added measure, so the evangelical zeal with which you try to convert us to these technologies is wasted...save it for those that ask but its not for this thread.

meanredspider

mamba80 wrote:

MRS... the OP hasnt a disc frame and considering he has a limited budget, its hardly likely he can buy a new bike c/w hydraulic disc's & presumably DI2 as an added measure, so the evangelical zeal with which you try to convert us to these technologies is wasted...save it for those that ask but its not for this thread.

I've never mentioned either technology.

mikeyj28

Thank you for all of the constructive comments and points of advice. There is no hidden agenda here at all from me. I posed a few questions on the forum, looking for advice from people who have carbon wheels or have better practical knowledge about them than myself.

Yes - I am not looking to buy a new frame to accommodate discs. When I buy a new frame/complete build, then I shall consider the requirement for discs or not.

maybe he is active on this forum or some of you have purchased from him. How good is Wheelsmith up in Scotland?
One last one from me - Any opinions on the Prime wheels that CRC are turning out?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/prim ... prod142961

mamba80

I ve bought wheels from Malcolm and he offers great service.

https://thecycleclinic.co.uk/collection ... 6-5mm-wide

stueys

mikeyj28 wrote:

maybe he is active on this forum or some of you have purchased from him. How good is Wheelsmith up in Scotland?
One last one from me - Any opinions on the Prime wheels that CRC are turning out?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/prim ... prod142961

Bought two sets from him, he's good.

mikeyj28

Stueys wrote:

mikeyj28 wrote:

maybe he is active on this forum or some of you have purchased from him. How good is Wheelsmith up in Scotland?
One last one from me - Any opinions on the Prime wheels that CRC are turning out?

http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/prim ... prod142961

Bought two sets from him, he's good.

Thanks Stueys and also to Mamba for the suggestion of Malcolm