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Le Tour no advert for electronic gears!

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  • fenixfenix Posts: 5,437
    Boardman had Terry Dolan make his TT frames at least. It was easy back in the days of steel. Now you can't really paint a carbon fibre bike to look like another make....
  • crispybug2crispybug2 Posts: 2,938
    mfin wrote:
    New kit, stripdowns and rebuilds will all add to the likelihood of given problems that a pro might experience in 4 yrs that you won't. There will be plenty of bikes on a stage which have just been messed about with, they're ridden hard, moved about, washed down etc everyday and used for more than 2000 miles in 3 weeks, all increasing the chances of failure.

    Plus, remember a lot of these pros have to ride Shimano, so we should sympathise because as at least we get the chance to look at it and decide "I don't want that shît on my bike", they can't.

    Anyone making an argument for 500ml bidon aesthetics who uses a saddlebag should be shot on sight by the way.

    Saddle bag users publicly humiliated beforehand

    I saw Alex Dowsett out on a ride with no support vehicle, guess what?

    Yep, using a saddle bag!
  • crispybug2 wrote:
    mfin wrote:
    New kit, stripdowns and rebuilds will all add to the likelihood of given problems that a pro might experience in 4 yrs that you won't. There will be plenty of bikes on a stage which have just been messed about with, they're ridden hard, moved about, washed down etc everyday and used for more than 2000 miles in 3 weeks, all increasing the chances of failure.

    Plus, remember a lot of these pros have to ride Shimano, so we should sympathise because as at least we get the chance to look at it and decide "I don't want that shît on my bike", they can't.

    Anyone making an argument for 500ml bidon aesthetics who uses a saddlebag should be shot on sight by the way.

    Saddle bag users publicly humiliated beforehand

    I saw Alex Dowsett out on a ride with no support vehicle, guess what?

    Yep, using a saddle bag!

    He did have a support vehicle but they were too embarrassed to be seen with him
  • FatTedFatTed Posts: 1,214
    Is there a rule against using 750 ml bottles?
  • If you look at most sports at the top end with equipment with highly engineered components. Cycling, motor sports, F1 and motorcycle racing. The failure rate seems high for such top end components. They all seem to share one thing. They get stripped down every time they come back to the mechanics. I don't strip my car, motorbike or bicycle down every time I use it. If it's working fine. Leave it alone. All the fancy data attached to these things will alert the mechanics to an issue. If it ain't broke, leave it alone.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    edited July 2017
    If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    +1 I've posted something very similar on disc brake threads. There's a group of people that love to strip and inspect and over-maintain their bikes.

    A neighbour of mine is a surgeon and we both race in the same classic car races. It took a while (and a few mishaps) to teach him not to unnecessarily mess about with his car. His job and his mentality (as you'd hope) means that he double and triple checked everything and took stuff apart to clean it. This, it turned out, was counterproductive. And it doesn't surprise me from what ive learned about industrial maintenance and system reliability.

    And there certainly seems to be a theme developing amongst those of us who have no trouble with our disc brakes: fit and forget, apart from the occasional pad change. I'm the same with my electronic gears - charge the battery occasionally and never touch (I've never needed to). A bike is for riding not tinkering with and polishing.

    ETA This was old when I started work but it survives because it's so true:

    Problem_Solving_Flowchart_by_weredraggor.jpg
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 50,681 Lives Here
    If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    +1 I've posted something very similar on disc brake threads. There's a group of people that love to strip and inspect and over-maintain their bikes.

    A neighbour of mine is a surgeon and we both race in the same classic car races. It took a while (and a few mishaps) to teach him not to unnecessarily mess about with his car. His job and his mentality (as you'd hope) means that he double and triple checked everything and took stuff apart to clean it. This, it turned out, was counterproductive. And it doesn't surprise me from what ive learned about industrial maintenance and system reliability.

    And there certainly seems to be a theme developing amongst those of us who have no trouble with our disc brakes: fit and forget, apart from the occasional pad change. I'm the same with my electronic gears - charge the battery occasionally and never touch (I've never needed to). A bike is for riding not tinkering with and polishing.


    Isn't this considered to be one of the reasons that reliability of cars in F1 improved noticeably after they introduced parc fermé?
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    +1 I've posted something very similar on disc brake threads. There's a group of people that love to strip and inspect and over-maintain their bikes.

    A neighbour of mine is a surgeon and we both race in the same classic car races. It took a while (and a few mishaps) to teach him not to unnecessarily mess about with his car. His job and his mentality (as you'd hope) means that he double and triple checked everything and took stuff apart to clean it. This, it turned out, was counterproductive. And it doesn't surprise me from what ive learned about industrial maintenance and system reliability.

    And there certainly seems to be a theme developing amongst those of us who have no trouble with our disc brakes: fit and forget, apart from the occasional pad change. I'm the same with my electronic gears - charge the battery occasionally and never touch (I've never needed to). A bike is for riding not tinkering with and polishing.


    Isn't this considered to be one of the reasons that reliability of cars in F1 improved noticeably after they introduced parc fermé?

    Could very well be. Anybody familiar with The Bathtub Curve will understand a little bit more about the theory that supports this. We found that if we could prevent a production line from stopping for small causes (minor jams or component run-outs) they ran infinitely better than just the sum of the small stops. Systems like steady state.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,086
    If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    +1 I've posted something very similar on disc brake threads. There's a group of people that love to strip and inspect and over-maintain their bikes.




    Its a bike, with components any of us can buy, aside from swapping wheels for new tubs, brake blocks and a wash, perhaps a new chain every other day.
    do you think anyone has time to strip each bike for every rider? they are far more likely to just give a rider like Froome another bike, if there is the slightest doubt.
    these are top notch teams and every detail has been looked at, inc mtce schedules introducing faults or not....

    any issue with reliability is likely to do with that this year it's a new version of Di2, i ve no time for electronic shifting but it is a very reliable system.
    i think you are all reading too much into a couple of incidents one of which was caused by a riding hoofing the RD. how about a thread on DI2 survives 2 crashes and still works.. Dan Martin.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    mamba80 wrote:
    If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    +1 I've posted something very similar on disc brake threads. There's a group of people that love to strip and inspect and over-maintain their bikes.




    Its a bike, with components any of us can buy, aside from swapping wheels for new tubs, brake blocks and a wash, perhaps a new chain every other day.
    do you think anyone has time to strip each bike for every rider? they are far more likely to just give a rider like Froome another bike, if there is the slightest doubt.
    these are top notch teams and every detail has been looked at, inc mtce schedules introducing faults or not....

    any issue with reliability is likely to do with that this year it's a new version of Di2, i ve no time for electronic shifting but it is a very reliable system.
    i think you are all reading too much into a couple of incidents one of which was caused by a riding hoofing the RD. how about a thread on DI2 survives 2 crashes and still works.. Dan Martin.

    I'm talking less about the teams (though I do wonder why they feel the need to pressure wash anything...) and more about the punters on here.

    But, as Rick points out, F1 teams make pro cycling mechanics look like total amateurs yet they've seen an unexpected benefit. Same is true in the industrial setting - I worked in a place that would make ca. £1,000,000 product a shift at 50% profit. Again, the resources available were massive, yet things were learned that no-one expected. I wonder how scientific these bike mechanics are: I'd love to see some of the reliability data they've generated.

    Totally agree on Di2
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • bianchimoonbianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    mamba80 wrote:
    If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    +1 I've posted something very similar on disc brake threads. There's a group of people that love to strip and inspect and over-maintain their bikes.




    Its a bike, with components any of us can buy, aside from swapping wheels for new tubs, brake blocks and a wash, perhaps a new chain every other day.
    do you think anyone has time to strip each bike for every rider? they are far more likely to just give a rider like Froome another bike, if there is the slightest doubt.
    these are top notch teams and every detail has been looked at, inc mtce schedules introducing faults or not....

    any issue with reliability is likely to do with that this year it's a new version of Di2, i ve no time for electronic shifting but it is a very reliable system.
    i think you are all reading too much into a couple of incidents one of which was caused by a riding hoofing the RD. how about a thread on DI2 survives 2 crashes and still works.. Dan Martin.
    well said, the op's point reminds me a little about the old film is better than digital photography, time's change, progress happens and in 10 years time when most people will have 'embraced' digi changing and all new bikes will be sold with it as costs drop even further with 105/veloce versions. There will always bee people burying their head in the sand about progress, but it won't stop advances in technology.
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,144


    well said, the op's point reminds me a little about the old film is better than digital photography, time's change, progress happens and in 10 years time when most people will have 'embraced' digi changing and all new bikes will be sold with it as costs drop even further with 105/veloce versions. There will always bee people burying their head in the sand about progress, but it won't stop advances in technology.


    Electronic shifting and disc brakes have been slower to catch on than most predicted and I'm not convinced either will become the default option even on bikes in the £1000 plus price bracket.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,791
    edited July 2017
    Edited
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,791
    If you look at most sports at the top end with equipment with highly engineered components. Cycling, motor sports, F1 and motorcycle racing. The failure rate seems high for such top end components. They all seem to share one thing. They get stripped down every time they come back to the mechanics. I don't strip my car, motorbike or bicycle down every time I use it. If it's working fine. Leave it alone. All the fancy data attached to these things will alert the mechanics to an issue. If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    I would disagree. The reliability in F1, WRC and motogp is astonishing given the extreme conditions these things operate under. An F1 car generates close to 1000 bhp from its 1.6 litre engine and revs to 15000 rpm. It will do 0 to 100 and back to zero in about 5 seconds and reach speeds in excess of 200 mph. I think each driver is allowed 4 engines per season but I'll stand corrected on that. They're built with exotic and experimental materials that are intended to push the envelope of speed and reliability to the very edge. It's inconceivable that F1 teams with decades of experience and billions of pounds of budget are just tinkering for the sake of it and that this leads to unreliability.
  • bianchimoonbianchimoon Posts: 3,942
    shortfall wrote:
    If you look at most sports at the top end with equipment with highly engineered components. Cycling, motor sports, F1 and motorcycle racing. The failure rate seems high for such top end components. They all seem to share one thing. They get stripped down every time they come back to the mechanics. I don't strip my car, motorbike or bicycle down every time I use it. If it's working fine. Leave it alone. All the fancy data attached to these things will alert the mechanics to an issue. If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    I would disagree. The reliability in F1, WRC and motogp is astonishing given the extreme conditions these things operate under. An F1 car generates close to 1000 bhp from its 1.6 litre engine and revs to 15000 rpm. It will do 0 to 100 and back to zero in about 5 seconds and reach speeds in excess of 200 mph. I think each driver is allowed 4 engines per season but I'll stand corrected on that. They're built with exotic and experimental materials that are intended to push the envelope of speed and reliability to the very edge. Your family car which benefits from the trickle down of Motorsport technology's by contrast will make maybe 100 bhp and is only expected to get your wife round the school run and to the shops once a week with maybe the odd trip to the seaside thrown in. Do you really think that an F1 team with decades of experience and billions of pounds of budget would just say "fark it, we won't bother looking at the engine until it breaks down"? Really?
    If you remember the earlier days of F1 Jones, Mansell, scheckter era, the amount of cars that wouldn't finish a race, or couldn't start on the grid with relatively simple engines/components compared to modern 'complicated' engines
    All lies and jest..still a man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest....
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,791
    shortfall wrote:
    If you look at most sports at the top end with equipment with highly engineered components. Cycling, motor sports, F1 and motorcycle racing. The failure rate seems high for such top end components. They all seem to share one thing. They get stripped down every time they come back to the mechanics. I don't strip my car, motorbike or bicycle down every time I use it. If it's working fine. Leave it alone. All the fancy data attached to these things will alert the mechanics to an issue. If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    I would disagree. The reliability in F1, WRC and motogp is astonishing given the extreme conditions these things operate under. An F1 car generates close to 1000 bhp from its 1.6 litre engine and revs to 15000 rpm. It will do 0 to 100 and back to zero in about 5 seconds and reach speeds in excess of 200 mph. I think each driver is allowed 4 engines per season but I'll stand corrected on that. They're built with exotic and experimental materials that are intended to push the envelope of speed and reliability to the very edge. Your family car which benefits from the trickle down of Motorsport technology's by contrast will make maybe 100 bhp and is only expected to get your wife round the school run and to the shops once a week with maybe the odd trip to the seaside thrown in. Do you really think that an F1 team with decades of experience and billions of pounds of budget would just say "fark it, we won't bother looking at the engine until it breaks down"? Really?
    If you remember the earlier days of F1 Jones, Mansell, scheckter era, the amount of cars that wouldn't finish a race, or couldn't start on the grid with relatively simple engines/components compared to modern 'complicated' engines

    I remember it well. I also remember the Senna era turbo cars that made over 1000 bhp in qualifying trim and then blew up. The point being that 20 years down the line they are much more reliable. I don't think the improved reliability is just down to mechanics not tinkering.
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,791
    I take the point about home mechanics fiddling and making things worse (I've been guilty of this myself) but this can be attributed to poor technical knowledge, the use of second rate tools and materials and working in a dirty environment. Professional mechanics be it in motorsport or bike racing have first rate materials, training and tools and are probably the best of the best in their field. The two scenarios can't be compared.
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    shortfall wrote:
    I take the point about home mechanics fiddling and making things worse (I've been guilty of this myself) but this can be attributed to poor technical knowledge, the use of second rate tools and materials and working in a dirty environment. Professional mechanics be it in motorsport or bike racing have first rate materials, training and tools and are probably the best of the best in their field. The two scenarios can't be compared.

    OK - take Lewis Hamilton's headrest as a trivial but highly relevant example. Designed and made by the best team, of the best materials, fitted by the best mechanics money can buy. Came loose and cost him a win and a bucketful of points. How many other examples do you think there are that aren't so visible? The main reasons why F1 teams pull everything apart are to inspect wear/damaged items, replace items that have reached their design life, and to pack it up so it'll fit in the hold of a plane or the back of a truck. But they do absolutely screw up in doing so. And quite often. The big difference is that the kit is more complex and under more stress. The principles, though, are entirely similar.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • shortfallshortfall Posts: 2,791
    shortfall wrote:
    I take the point about home mechanics fiddling and making things worse (I've been guilty of this myself) but this can be attributed to poor technical knowledge, the use of second rate tools and materials and working in a dirty environment. Professional mechanics be it in motorsport or bike racing have first rate materials, training and tools and are probably the best of the best in their field. The two scenarios can't be compared.

    OK - take Lewis Hamilton's headrest as a trivial but highly relevant example. Designed and made by the best team, of the best materials, fitted by the best mechanics money can buy. Came loose and cost him a win and a bucketful of points. How many other examples do you think there are that aren't so visible? The main reasons why F1 teams pull everything apart are to inspect wear/damaged items, replace items that have reached their design life, and to pack it up so it'll fit in the hold of a plane or the back of a truck. But they do absolutely screw up in doing so. And quite often. The big difference is that the kit is more complex and under more stress. The principles, though, are entirely similar.

    Point taken but there will always be human error, especially in the massive pressure cooker environment of F1 but I'm sure there are many similar examples of where the failure to perform routine maintenance has resulted in some component or other breaking. I would suggest that in the blue ribband classes of Motorsport that team principles will accept the relatively small number of human errors of the type you mention when set alongside the staggering reliability ensured by thorough maintenance and checking.
  • Ben6899Ben6899 Posts: 7,721
    Could very well be. Anybody familiar with The Bathtub Curve will understand a little bit more about the theory that supports this. We found that if we could prevent a production line from stopping for small causes (minor jams or component run-outs) they ran infinitely better than just the sum of the small stops. Systems like steady state.

    The Bathtub Curve is a bit of a classic.
    Ben

    Bikes: Donhou DSS4 Custom | Condor Italia RC | Gios Megalite | Dolan Preffisio | Giant Bowery '76
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  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    shortfall wrote:
    I would suggest that in the blue ribband classes of Motorsport that team principles will accept the relatively small number of human errors of the type you mention when set alongside the staggering reliability ensured by thorough maintenance and checking.

    I absolutely accept the point and I'm sure that there's very little chance in F1 that there's going to be failures due to lack of maintenance for all the reasons listed above. I recently visited Renault F1 and they took us through the way they track and continually test parts. I was also lucky enough to visit their pits a few years back at Valencia and the guy who looked after suspension components (an ex-RAF aircraft fitter like many F1 mechanics) showed me what he did to test parts.

    My point is, though, that maintenance can and will introduce failures even amongst the very best. I did a 3-day SKF bearing mounting and maintenance course many years ago - they told us that maintenance was by far the greatest cause of bearing failure.

    A bike is a simple machine and the components are pretty robust and, if fitted well, don't need much tinkering. I'd put myself at an extreme in terms of how little I touch my bikes yet I can't remember ever having anything fail on a ride - except the BB30 bearings on my brand new Boardman CX and the chain at the same time. It had done 12 miles from new.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • rolf_frolf_f Posts: 15,962
    mamba80 wrote:
    If it ain't broke, leave it alone.

    +1 I've posted something very similar on disc brake threads. There's a group of people that love to strip and inspect and over-maintain their bikes.




    Its a bike, with components any of us can buy, aside from swapping wheels for new tubs, brake blocks and a wash, perhaps a new chain every other day.
    do you think anyone has time to strip each bike for every rider? they are far more likely to just give a rider like Froome another bike, if there is the slightest doubt.
    these are top notch teams and every detail has been looked at, inc mtce schedules introducing faults or not....

    any issue with reliability is likely to do with that this year it's a new version of Di2, i ve no time for electronic shifting but it is a very reliable system.
    i think you are all reading too much into a couple of incidents one of which was caused by a riding hoofing the RD. how about a thread on DI2 survives 2 crashes and still works.. Dan Martin.
    well said, the op's point reminds me a little about the old film is better than digital photography, time's change, progress happens and in 10 years time when most people will have 'embraced' digi changing and all new bikes will be sold with it as costs drop even further with 105/veloce versions. There will always bee people burying their head in the sand about progress, but it won't stop advances in technology.

    But note that Uran would have been able to change gear satisfactorily had he been running down tube shifters. Just sayin' like! :wink:

    And you are wrong about all new bikes having digi changing in 10 years. Probably not even a majority. You can still buy bikes with DT shifters after all and even rod brakes! Mind you, I like the idea of wireless STI shifters that are rod brake compatible!
    Faster than a tent.......
  • burnthesheepburnthesheep Posts: 675
    Ben6899 wrote:
    fenix wrote:
    TP - don't forget that there are multiple crashes in the course of the days racing. We dont see them all. It's a lot tougher on kit than the average joe would be.

    Agreed but they can't all be down to crashes. And what about time trial failures as so have seen a few times ? This reminds me of the Stages issues people rant on about. Some have years of trouble free cycling and others seem to constantly get duff units like God is personally sh1tting on them. Ho hum

    God only shits on your cycling, if you use those massive 750ml/1L bidons.

    I'll address this one.

    As soon as you have a personal domestique following you around, I'll relent and say you're daft if you use anything bigger than 1/2 liter.

    Wussies stop on climbs for water. Real riders take what they need with them. I can see taking one 750 in a cage and then a 500 in the other cage and a 3rd bottle in the jersey pocket for a 2 to 3 hour mountain climb.
  • if you rode with 2 750ml bottles you are carrying more weight, therefore are much tougher, than the wimps with a mere 500ml on board.

    Plus, you know, dehydration isn't fun.
  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    In my experience a properly installed manual mech is very slick in operation, can't comment about electronic gizmos as I haven't used one.

    A/ Who said mechanical gears were not slick?
    B/ Please, please stick to mechanical gears and never ever ever get electronic.
    C/ Er, you did just comment (and make sad little remarks) even though you have never used them :roll:
    D/ What else don't you like that you have never used?
    E/ Don't forget to never ever ever ever get electronic gears.
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Could very well be. Anybody familiar with The Bathtub Curve will understand a little bit more about the theory that supports this. We found that if we could prevent a production line from stopping for small causes (minor jams or component run-outs) they ran infinitely better than just the sum of the small stops. Systems like steady state.

    The Bathtub Curve is a bit of a classic.

    So based on reviews of failure rate data, the bathtub curve is only valid about 7% of the time...
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • fat daddyfat daddy Posts: 2,632
    I don't get what the issue is ..... of course Electronic gears are going to fail more ... they have only been around for a few years and only used in anger in the last couple of years.

    as they fail, companies will improve where they are failing and reliability will improve .. hell I bet when the Italians released the 1st nuovo they all thought, "why" ????? the Cambio Corsa is far more reliable"
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    Jez mon wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Could very well be. Anybody familiar with The Bathtub Curve will understand a little bit more about the theory that supports this. We found that if we could prevent a production line from stopping for small causes (minor jams or component run-outs) they ran infinitely better than just the sum of the small stops. Systems like steady state.

    The Bathtub Curve is a bit of a classic.

    So based on reviews of failure rate data, the bathtub curve is only valid about 7% of the time...

    :? :? :? - it's a concept not a rock-solid predictive tool and describes the time-related nature of failure modes.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
  • Jez monJez mon Posts: 3,809
    Jez mon wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Could very well be. Anybody familiar with The Bathtub Curve will understand a little bit more about the theory that supports this. We found that if we could prevent a production line from stopping for small causes (minor jams or component run-outs) they ran infinitely better than just the sum of the small stops. Systems like steady state.

    The Bathtub Curve is a bit of a classic.

    So based on reviews of failure rate data, the bathtub curve is only valid about 7% of the time...

    :? :? :? - it's a concept not a rock-solid predictive tool and describes the time-related nature of failure modes.

    Agreed, but a lot of people seem to assume the bathtub curve is the universal failure pattern. Analysis from real life failure data suggests that most stuff doesn't follow that trend...
    You live and learn. At any rate, you live
  • meanredspidermeanredspider Posts: 12,550
    Jez mon wrote:
    Jez mon wrote:
    Ben6899 wrote:
    Could very well be. Anybody familiar with The Bathtub Curve will understand a little bit more about the theory that supports this. We found that if we could prevent a production line from stopping for small causes (minor jams or component run-outs) they ran infinitely better than just the sum of the small stops. Systems like steady state.

    The Bathtub Curve is a bit of a classic.

    So based on reviews of failure rate data, the bathtub curve is only valid about 7% of the time...

    :? :? :? - it's a concept not a rock-solid predictive tool and describes the time-related nature of failure modes.

    Agreed, but a lot of people seem to assume the bathtub curve is the universal failure pattern. Analysis from real life failure data suggests that most stuff doesn't follow that trend...

    No - but individual failure modes tend to follow either a diminishing failure rate with time (the LH end of the tub), increasing failure rate with time (RH end of the tub) or hardly any relationship to time (the bottom of the tub). I'd imagine that most failures on the Tour are either LH end ("burn in" failures - related to assembly) or bottom ("accidental" - punctures/crashes). By not messing with the bike, you tend to eliminate the risk of many of the "burn-in" failures. There's an increased risk of the RH end occurring but, on something as simple as a bike, most of those are observable through inspection.
    ROAD < Scott Foil HMX Di2, Volagi Liscio Di2, Jamis Renegade Elite Di2, Cube Reaction Race > ROUGH
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