The knack of Time Trialling

JesseD

Did my first TT on the weekend, well my first one in over 25 years at least! I did it on my road bike with no aero clobber (as I dont own any) and over the 10 mile course (actually 9.81miles according to Garmin) managed a 24:06, which I was happy with and disappointed with at the same time. I finished mid table and was 3rd fastest road bike and was 1:55 slower than the fastest riders (who were in full TT mode, bike, disc wheels, helmets etc).

What I struggled with was pacing the ride, I kind of had the idea in my head that I wanted to average between 350-400 watts for the ride, not go off too fast and finish strongly, however what actually happened was far from that.

The course mainly climbed for the first 13 mins with the starting 2 miles into a headwind the becomes a bit technical and undulating, I found that I went too hard from the start and was knackered after the first 2 miles, then basically hung on for the rest, rallying for the last mile or 2 which were gradually downhill.

Does anyone have any tips for pacing a TT, as this is pretty alien to me and i would obviously like to improve, I mainly do road racing and crits and am fine within a bunch but want to now try to crack TTing.

FWIW my stats for the ride are:

Time 24:06
Max HR 166bpm
AVG HR 161bpm
Avg Speed 24.3mph
Max Power 936w
Avg Power 340w

Thanks

imposter2.0

Do more of them.

timothyw

Basically as Imposter says, although perhaps worth pointing out that going hard on the hills is actually desirable, rather than on the descent/flat.

When you are going up a reasonably steep hill, gravity is the main source of resistance to your progress - the speed at which you can overcome it has a linear response the more power you apply.

When on the flat, or coming downhill, the faster you go the progressively greater the wind resistance becomes - you get more benefit against the clock by putting in an extra 50 watts over the bumps than you do by putting it down on the flat, where it is more important to keep your head down, arms tucked in and your pace sustainable.

But yeah, ride more and you'll have a better idea of how to pace, it's a good idea to know the course too as I get the impression you didn't know this one.

ugo.santalucia

Work on your position... you don't seem to get much in return for your watts... people with similar outputs and good positions can do 20-22 min

JesseD

Thanks for the comments so far guys.

Agree, really need to do more of them and that’s the goal, I love road racing and crits, but we also have a few different TT series over here and I would like to steadily improve over the coming months.

TimothyW – so if I get it right I am better off putting the efforts in on the uphills and downhill sections and maintaining and even pace on the flats?

I didn’t have a clue about the course prior to the ride, I know the roads pretty well as I live on a small island (Jersey) but didn’t have a clue where the finish was until I was on it (well a rough idea).

Ugo – I rode this on my road bike with a road helmet and bibs and shorts etc, so no aero gear, my position is pretty good on the road bike, it’s comfortable and I am pretty low on the front (13cm saddle to bar drop), the bars cannot go much lower as I only have the 10mm headset top cap and a 6mm Di2 junction box spacer under the stem. My back is pretty flat when in the drops which is where I spent most of the ride, I am heavy at 85kgs which may account for the higher watts compared to my time, but the weight is coming down slowly so which may help as well. Not sure what else I can do position wise?

I think going to a TT bike will help which (if I get into it) will be the next step, albeit on a budget, but that’s probably not going to be until next year.

Bobbinogs

What about seeing if someone will lend you some clip on bars to flatten out your position? Many people who are on the drops think they are flat whereas they are not in a decent aero position. I would try some clip ons, experiment a bit on finding a decent position and then do two simple routes riding to power on the same afternoon and see if things differ.

simon_e

Try to keep a lid on your effort level in first mile - you will pay dearly for going into the red for the remaining 9 miles, as you now know. Build to a consistent, manageable but hard effort until about mile 7 then start pushing it so you're absolutely tongue-out praying for mercy by 9.5 miles then hang on until the finish line.

If it's hilly or lumpy I'd go a little harder on the climbs (but definitely not go too deep), keep the power on over the top to get your speed up then ease back a bit on any descents. Try to time gear changes so you don't lose momentum unnecessarily as you reach the foot of a rise.

http://www.abcc.co.uk/124/ is a useful article showing the difference that can be made with improved pacing for a 10 mile TT.

mpatts

This level of questioning will never stop - its part of TTing!

The Chris Boardman school of pacing:

I can keep this up for 10 miles: You're going too easy
I think I can keep this up for 10 miles, just: About right

Riding at a consistant power certainly helps, but depends a bit on the course.

ugo.santalucia

JesseD wrote:

Ugo – I rode this on my road bike with a road helmet and bibs and shorts etc, so no aero gear, my position is pretty good on the road bike, it’s comfortable and I am pretty low on the front (13cm saddle to bar drop), the bars cannot go much lower as I only have the 10mm headset top cap and a 6mm Di2 junction box spacer under the stem. My back is pretty flat when in the drops which is where I spent most of the ride, I am heavy at 85kgs which may account for the higher watts compared to my time, but the weight is coming down slowly so which may help as well. Not sure what else I can do position wise?

I think going to a TT bike will help which (if I get into it) will be the next step, albeit on a budget, but that’s probably not going to be until next year.

From Michael Hutchinson's book "The Hour"... he claimed with standard equipment (bbasically a standard track bike) tweaking his position, he managed to average 30 mph with 380 watt... that was down from over 500 Watts in his very first trial.

340 Watts should get you further than 25 mph or so if you optimise your position... that is even before you consider big money on time trialling equipment

For reference, I don't think I can do more than 260 Watts for 10 miles and can average 23 mph and my position is very average

simon_masterson

Basically what you've said is the basic formula - don't kill yourself in the first few minutes, get up to threshold, empty the tank in the last couple of miles. Some courses make this hard, likewise weather conditions - eg. if you're doing an out and back, better to go hard into the wind and ease off on the way back (or vice versa). Doing 5 and 10 minute intervals is good for short TTs (IMO). Posting really fast times on spoco/hilly TTs is a fine art, and hard to do without knowing the course. My season isn't quite going the way I wanted it to (amazing how disruptive moving house can be), but whilst I've posted two 21s, I've not managed to break 24 minutes on my club's spoco course, which I've ridden many times.

timothyw

JesseD wrote:

TimothyW – so if I get it right I am better off putting the efforts in on the uphills and downhill sections and maintaining and even pace on the flats?

Not quite - put in the efforts uphill. Downhill your effort is even less important than on the flat (and aero tuck becomes more important) - this is why you see the pro's sprint out of corners then quickly get into a tuck when descending mountains - if they time it right, then they gain more speed by going into the tuck than they would by continuing to pedal, as they are that much more aero and gravity is continuing to accelerate them.

To put it into numbers, say you're aiming for 350w average over the course, you'll want to be hitting perhaps 420w uphill then more like 320w on the flat, then say 250w descending (or 0w if you can get more speed by going into a full tuck...)

What you need to learn is the sort of watts that you can sustain on the hills without cooking yourself for the flats - you want to balance the increased effort uphill against recovery at a sustainable pace on the flat/descent.

Conversely, on a windy day on the flat, there's no point beasting yourself into a headwind then taking it easy on the return leg with a tailwind, despite the temptation to do so - it's better to pick a sustainable wattage and stick to it - don't treat the headwind leg any different (in terms of your power output) to the tailwind leg.

okgo

I agree with the above in so much as even power is usually always quickest even with wind. However, its easier to negative split IMO, that means taking the first half easier than the second. Usually you will lose very little doing this and have a far lower chance of blowing up.

I do think the above isn't quite right in regards to the difference between flat and hills. Averaging 340w for a 10 would mean that hitting 420W would likely flood you with lactate and you'd never recover from it. When I'm doing a sporting TT I always try and avoid going into the upper levels of VO2 as its just damaging. Conversely there are very few hills in TT's that mean its not worth turning the pedals really. But its true that you can potentially back off here and recover a bit, but its a fine balance as mentioned.

Personally in my recent 10 mile time trials, lets say I plan to avg around 400w, then I will try and go out at 390w and back at 410w, that feels manageable and is easier to execute than going out at 400w right from the get go for me. Team Sky (and especially Wiggins) were very fond of the negative split.

JesseD

Thanks all for the comments, TTing is something I did a lot of as a juvenile/junior rider but wind on 25 years and there is no other way of saying it but I have a lot to learn!

Simon, that’s a really interesting article, and does certainly run along the same themes brought up in this thread.

I definitely did go off too fast and as the first mile or so in slightly uphill and into a headwind I went into the red pretty quickly then just tried to hold it. I did try to power up the climbs but could feel the legs getting heavy, but that’s probably also a result of going out too hard.

How do I determine what the the max power I can sustain for the full ride is and then have the energy to up the pace in the last mile or 2, I think 350w seems doable but have no idea if that’s realistic or not, is it too low or too high?

The average power I put out was 340w with going out too hard and fading (looking at the graph on Garmin Connect I do defiantly start to put out less power from about 16 mins into the ride), is this the power I should be aiming for or higher or lower?

Bobbings/Ugo – I will try some clip on bars and see how I get on, to get any lower or more aero then I am looking at getting a different bike as I have no real scope to lower the front end. But if I get into it (and I probably will) then it does seem a dedicated (budget) TT bike would be the way to go, along with skinsuit, overshoes, pointy hat etc.

Okgo - how do you feel doing a negative split, doesnt it mess with your head a bit as you feel you should be going faster during the first half???

From a training perspective, I am coached but it’s all for road and crit racing, gearing up for the local circuit race series starting in July and the Island Road champs and crit champs and August, so all of this is based off my training for the road events.

Have to admit, there is a lot more to TTing than simply getting on your bike and riding from A-B as quickly as you can (although that is also what it is!)

okgo

Not really, if you know you've got it all out then the speed is just a by product of your effort and position. Most of my TTing is at a fairly decent pace (30mph generally), so it never feels slow per se, but measuring that effort to make sure you finish empty is all you can do. Decide whether you did that or not, and whether you were pleased with that, if so, the time is what it is.

thomasmorris

It really depends how hilly the course is to how much to vary your effort.

Generally a slight negative split is a good starting point on any course you don't know. It's a great conservative tactic that accounts for having a bad day. The gains to be made by varying your effort are more marginal, and risk greater (totally blowing up).

However, I have definitely improved my times by going a little over on drags and recovering on fast sections. The problem is it's so course specific, and nuanced to the individuals ability to go over then recover from anaerobic efforts that giving applicable advice on a forum is almost impossible.

My local 9 mile course has a few dips in in. I tend to average 300, and go over to 330 on the drags and try to recover at 260 on the downs then hold a about average on the flats. The last 2-3 minutes I stop looking at the computer and just get it all out on feel.

If you just had a set amount of energy to burn, then best pacing would be to up the power every time you dipped below your target average speed and back off every time you went over, so you maintain a constant speed. However, physiologically going in to the red is damaging, and in the extreme it's going hard enough to maintain a constant speed is impossible.

The rewarding thing about returning to a course you know is getting this balance right.

JesseD

So trial and error then basically, get to know what power you can comfortably do a course in without blowing up and try to stick to it the best you can, this means an even power output should stop you going into the red too much if at all.

We wont be doing that course again this year but we have 2 25 mile TTs in July, then 4 x 5's and a 4up TT in August all leading up to the Duo Normande in September (which I am not doing as my sister selfishly decided to get married on the same weekend).

I suppose the pacing for a 25 is the same theory as a 10, stick to the power you know you can sustain just about for the distance and try to raise it for the last 2 miles?

How do you pace a 5 mile TT, all of ours are out and back flat exposed courses with usually a crosswind to contend with.

thomasmorris

Again, without knowing the course it's hard to say. Ride the first 5 / 25 at a power just below what you think can sustain then up it gradually in the second half.

Next time you ride it you'll know the drags and try and nudge above your sustainable power for these and back off a fraction on the faster bits. Play a round as the series goes on.

Can you ride the courses at another time?

We have a 6 mile out and back course. It starts downhill so finishes with a 2 minute drag. The middle of the course is a very gradual drag then down in to the turn (and obviously repeated on the way back). The way I treat it is I ignore the first downhill section and just ride it at a tempo (80% ftp). Then i start my race effort on the first gradual at 110% ftp, then try and hold about threshold in to the turn. Out of the turn it's about 3 minute of drag which I try to do at 110% of ftp again. It's then a 2 minute rest false flat downhill in to the foot of the finish drag, I aim about 90% ftp for this. Then, the climb to the finish is about 2 minute, I completely empty on this. The finish is actually 100-200 meter from the crest, so I aim my finishing sprint for going over the crest, then just hang of for those final meters.
https://www.strava.com/activities/940823327/analysis
The link above isn't the best example as I got stuck behind a car just after the start, but you can see the small power variations over the small drags.

The point I'm trying to get across is, it can be quicker to alter pace, but be conservative about it. And if you do identify area you want to push a little harder on, you must also find place to recover, otherwise that's just recipe for blowing up.

Buckie2k5

Now you have a base power output for 10 you can work of that data.

http://www.flammerouge.je/factsheets/doittstrat.htm

mfin

Nobody has asked whether you were properly warmed up too? It makes it way more likely to blow in the first couple of miles if you aren't.

simon_e

JesseD wrote:

I suppose the pacing for a 25 is the same theory as a 10, stick to the power you know you can sustain just about for the distance and try to raise it for the last 2 miles?

Start similarly to the 10 but don't ramp it up, but for the last 5 miles raise it a notch, then dig deeper if you can for the last mile. If you've paced it right you probably wouldn't be able to sustain the pace you would do in the second half of a 10 (if that makes sense).

JesseD wrote:

How do you pace a 5 mile TT, all of ours are out and back flat exposed courses with usually a crosswind to contend with.

Like the second half of a 10, or even a little faster. Though I'd hold back a bit for the first half mile or so to let your cardiovascular system catch up with your legs.

Some good ideas at http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/1 ... ial-31017/

JesseD

Brilliant thanks all, this gives me something to think about for next time, I find it amazing all the different approaches to getting this right for you and suppose there will be a degree of trial and error before I find what works for me. Definitely has got me wanting to keep TTing and to improve my times.

With regards to position, I popped in for a coffee at my LBS this morning and a mate of mine was in there and has offered me his old TT bike for a very good price as he is buying a new one. He is the same height as me and we ride similar sized road bikes so I am pretty confident this will fit me and get me into a better position!

This could be a cheap way to get into TTing properly.

MiddleRinger

Could be a bargain. Take it for a spin of you can. Hammering around on a TT bike is seriously fun!

You've got to find what works for you, usually by a lot of trial and error. Tinkering with your position to find the optimal balance of aero and power, then adapting to each change you make. Trying to get that pacing just right (a toughie). Plus riding the course over and over to learn each and every corner and climb is a huge advantage - worth more in time savings that a lot of kit! Know where to burn your matches.

simon_masterson

Two things worth doing:

First, does your club/another local club have an evening 10/25? Really great for getting into TTs.
Second, ride a really fast course - E2/10, V718, F11/10 etc and see what you can do.

If you're going to get into it properly, a good skinsuit and the right helmet are absolutely worth their weight in gold.

JesseD

Middle ringer – I have had a quick go on the bike and its not a million miles out to be honest but there is a lot of adjustment to play with. It’s a 2011 Argon 18 E-114 frameset with a Hed Jet Disc (older version), but won’t come with bars, saddle or a front wheel, which is fine as I can sort those pretty cheaply and use my 60mm DT Swiss front from my race bike, it will definitely give me a decent starting machine which I can upgrade over time. Position wise I will need to play about and see what works. I can imagine that I won’t be as low as is ideal initially but as I get more flexible then I will be able to play with my position a bit more, one question I do have is around saddle height and position, I can imagine it it is slightly different on a TT bike than a road bike?

Simon Masterton – Unfortunately none of the clubs on the island to a club 5/10/25, there are series throughout the year which are well attended but nothing every week throughout the season which is a shame. Our 5 mile TT series later this year is on a very quick, flat out and back course so I am going to look to do that as well. I am going to spend relatively little money on it this year (which is wise given I spent quite a lot on a new race bike and a trip to Spain with the boys later this year to ride the mountains, I think I would be divorced if I spent any more), but am going to buy a cheap skinsuit and aero helmet, but then if all goes as I imagine it will, I will spend a decent amount on gear next year.

roubaixmb

Simon Masterson wrote:

Second, ride a really fast course - E2/10, V718, F11/10 etc and see what you can do.

Sorry for thread hijack - what is reckoned to be the fastest 10 course easily accessible (ie I can ride there in under 90 mins) from SW London?

ben@31

ugo.santalucia wrote:

For reference, I don't think I can do more than 260 Watts for 10 miles and can average 23 mph and my position is very average

When I saw his 340 Watts for over 20 minutes. I was thinking the same. Thats still a pretty good performance in my book that blows my FTP out the water.

Grill

With 340w, my fat ass would do a 17. Damn these awful genetics of mine.

JesseD

I think my fat arse is the problem, the power is there but so it the belly!

To be fair the course is very rarely flat and it seemingly had a headwind which ever direction I was heading in, plus its very technical, however thats all excuses, I just need to go faster and try harder!