SRAM Red crank BB30 on Cannondale frame issues

ianjf2000

Hi all,

Hoping for some good advice here. I've recently had to replace my SRAM Red crank as it had a crack in the carbon on the arm with the chainrings. This caused the pedal housing to become loose and not fixable. So I purchased a new (although I know they are out of date now) SRAM Red pedal arms. I would add my groupset is a SRAM Red 10 speed.

The arms I have now are different. They are single arms with a spider, as oppose to my previous set which had the arm on the chainring side with an integrated carbon spider.

My bike is a Cannondale Super Six Evo with a press fit BB30. The non drive side arm is also different, with a screw adjusted (plastic) as oppose to using a wavy washer.

The issue I am having now is getting the new arms to fit. I have changed to Q Rings, which should not be an issue. The issue appears to be the depth of the hex bolt from the end of the spindle, when placed upside down. I have tried using spacers, and it pulls in the crank too close to the frame. I have tried using a 9.11mm SRAM spacer in between the arm and the BB, and it's getting close to the frame and although the arms spin, they are feeling tight and don't spin freely.

The spider with the SRAM Red arms came with an older configuration of the chain rings bolts. I have tried with a SRAM Force spider with the chain ring bolts moved, with one 'hidden' under the arm and again no luck.

Is it time to submit to defeat, sell it all and buy the exact same cranks? I've posted some picks up to try better explain my dilemma. Any help or advice appreciated. (Oh, and I did try the bike shop and they didn't know what to do).

[img][/img]http://www.pacificshack.co.nz/clients/cannondale/SRAM-Cannondale-image1.jpg

[img][/img]http://www.pacificshack.co.nz/clients/cannondale/SRAM-Cannondale-image2.jpg

[img][/img]http://www.pacificshack.co.nz/clients/cannondale/SRAM-Cannondale-image3.jpg

[img][/img]http://www.pacificshack.co.nz/clients/cannondale/SRAM-Cannondale-image4.jpg

[img][/img]http://www.pacificshack.co.nz/clients/cannondale/SRAM-Cannondale-image5.jpg

[img][/img]http://www.pacificshack.co.nz/clients/cannondale/SRAM-Cannondale-image6.jpg

Pippy aston

If you're on twitter look up Pete spencer@gozbike Top bike mechanic and it's his day job.

sungod

you had the original bb30 crankset - with spider integrated with crank

you got a new bb30 crankset - with spider fixed to crank by the three bolts visible around the recess of the axle

post an image of the old and new non-driveside crank/axle next to each other to compare axle lengths and also to see their spacers (put the old spacers on the old axle just like they used to be)

the rotating spacer on the new crank can always be slid off if it's too deep - image 2 looks like you removed part of it and left the other bit on the crank, don't do that - but that should not be necessary, it's made to fit a correct bb

anyway...

that last image does not show a bb30 bb, presumably it's pf30, BUT the bearing shield looks like it sticks out too far, if the other side is the same then that'd be the cause of your problems

take some side shots of both sides and post them

for bb30 i'd expect the outer face of the bearing shields to be flush with the ends of the shell, afaik for pf30 they'd be flush with the cups

ianjf2000

Thanks for your replies. I have posted some more detailed pics below:

Non DS Arms (I think both are the same BB30 PF30 AL 7050


Array of washers / spacers


Spiders (SRAM Force hidden bolt and traditonal 5 type)


Drive side crank (new)


Old damaged SRAM Exogram DS arm


Old damaged SRAM Exogram DS arm close up


DS BB


NON DS BB


Plastic removed from BB?


DS BB with plastic removed


Non DS BB with plastic removed



So the main issues are:
1/ Do I need the plastic tensioner on the non ds arm? My original one did not have it. It had a plastic spacer, wavy washer and spacer. (Note my new non ds arm came with it, but it has broken.
2/ Can I confirm the plastic I removed from the BB are the bearing shields and these should stay in?
3/ I currently get around 4-5 of thread when tightened up, this causes the crank to not spin well. This is also not with it fully tightened as i dont want to break it.

Thanks,

sungod

looks like chris king does the pf30 a non-standard way with those plastic inserts

normally the axle fits direct into the bearing - metal to metal - instead it appears they use bearings with an inner diameter >30mm with the inserts sitting between bearing and axle

the inserts are ok, as on their own they look like they'll result in normal spacing

you did not show position of old spacers on old axle, if there was a 3mm spacers each side, that is not how sram bb30/pf30 fits unless you have the wide axle version

with bb30/pf30, on drive side should be only the fat spacer, c. 9mm, except ***some*** sram models don't need this (perhaps your old one did not), it's easy to tell, you get 9mm play if you need it and don't fit it!

with those cranks, on non-drive side you should have the threaded 'integrated adjuster'; alternatively is to use spacer+shims to get the spacing instead of the adjuster, again there're ***some*** that use just thin washer/shims, but i don't think that's what you have here

how did you break the adjuster? they are pretty tough, if you simply are finding the thread slips as you tighten it that is to be expected if there're too many spacers, with correct set-up the lock screw just needs loosening a bit then you turn the adjuster until there's no side-side play in the cranks and lock it again

the adjusters can be obtained as spares

this instruction sheet shows the various permutations, use the one that matches what you have...

https://sram-cdn-pull-zone-gsdesign.net ... ts_eeu.pdf

ianjf2000

Thanks for your response back so quickly.

I did manage to get it to sort of it, (cough) with using a wavy washer a 3mm spacer on the Non DS arm, and a 3mm spacer plus 9mm spacer on the drive side. I didn't fully tighten it up as it started to squeeze in the spacers to tightly. Which means the main issue I was having it not getting enough thread of the spindle on to the drive side arm. The 9mm spacer covered too much of it, and i'd end up with all spacers pressed together and forcing pressure on the bearing covers. I'm sure it wouldn't have lasted long.

So no matter what I tried, if I used spacers, it pressed them together too much. If I didn't use spacers, the chain rings hit the frame / chain stay.

So finally i've decided to sell the cranks. I just don't think they are compatible with my Chris King BB. I should really look for the exact same set of cranks I had last time and that way I would know they would fit.

jgsi

Puzzled by this one. Who put the Chris King PF30 kit in?

ianjf2000

The local bike shop - which went out of business at the start of the year!

Actually I am resurrecting this thread, as there must be a solution to this dilemma. I think my non drive side spindle is too short which is why the rings are too close to the frame. If anyone has any solutions out there please let me know. I've not sold the cranks yet and still looking for a way to get this working.

svetty

If you are using a wavy washer - which is a common enough with PF30 - then this should set the pre-load (assuming it isn't fully compressed). Surely all you need to do is experiment by trial and error with various spacers/washers until the bolt is tightened to the correct torque figure and the wavy washer semi compressed?

http://www.cannondalespares.com/Wheels- ... il/3-42204

This is how Cannondale spindle set-ups work. You add the correct number of 1mm plastic shims so that the pre-load is correct. You can fine-tune the chain-line by varying which side you add the spacers to ensure that the chain-line is as near 43.5mm from the mid-line as you can get it.

ianjf2000

I think the spindle I have which is attached to the Non DS arm, is too short for this type of set up, as it is screwed in to the drive side arm.









Where as my old SRAM Red set up had the integrated style of driveside arm. By which I mean the spider was integrated in to the arm, which becomes closer to the BB. With this type, there is an offset, which I think the only way to get it to work is a longer spindle, which means a new non ds arm.

Unless I am reading this wrong?

svetty

So if you use no spacers on the NDS and the minimum needed (including wavy washer ) on the DS to give clearance between rings and chainstay then the spindle isn't long enough to fit the spider and crank?

ianjf2000

The spindle is long enough, but it pulls the chain rings too close to the frame.

sungod

to me, the problem you have is the shop bodged it to work in the first place

as a result you've bought the same standard crankset, but one that won't work with the bodge

what is the length on the spindle, in mm, from ds tip to the inner face of the nds crank

svetty

ianjf2000 wrote:

The spindle is long enough, but it pulls the chain rings too close to the frame.

Implies you need some spacers between DS crank/spider and the bearing shield - the minimum needed to ensure chain-line is acceptable and rings clear the frame. Link I previously posted applies.

A CK PF BB30 should be fine in a standard PF30 frameset....

ianjf2000

Thanks, but still doesn't work

I've got:
Non DS: Wavy washer + Plastic washer + 2mm spacer (Same as previous set up)
DS: 9mm spacer

I can't fully tighten the cranks. The inner chain ring rubs the chain stay, and too close to frame. Also the DS does not fully tighten to spindle, and has slight movement when pressure applied to the arms. Hence I am thinking the spindle is too short.

svetty

Sounds like the crank arm geometry is the issue - meaning that the arms don't clear the chain-stays when the spindle is correctly located within the BB shell. Some crank arms bend more than others......

sungod

sungod wrote:

what is the length on the spindle, in mm, from ds tip to the inner face of the nds crank

what is the length on the spindle, in mm, from ds tip to the inner face of the nds crank

also, what is the bb shell width, in mm - NOT including the ck bb

ianjf2000

Hi all, thanks for all your help so far, I do appreciate it.

Some more pics which I hope helps:

















So:
1/ Both the replacement and old Non DS arms are the same (except for 172.5mm and 175mm). The spindle is attached amd measures 87mm from arm to the tip.
2/ Width of BB exc. the Chris King BB is 67mm. Including the BB is 69mm.
3/ The inner offset on both cranks is different between the types of models. I think the replacement cranks are older (2012) models which have seperate arms. My original ones which broke I think were newer than this and had the integrated spider. Having the integrated spider changes the position of the nut / bolt to tighten on to the spider, meaning it requires more thread to attach too.
4/ Using a spacer (in a previous photo) which is 9mm does create some width, but not enough thread for the drive side arm to attach too. This creates play when tightened. It also brings the chainrings still too close to the frame and does not allow the cranks to spin freely. The spacer becomes too tight against the plastic shields and causes the plastic shields to spin, which I don't think they are designed to do.
5/ The plastic shields are required in the BB. Removing them creates too much movement inside the spindle.

I think the issue is the type of crank I have just isn't compatible with this BB due to the bolt offset.

sungod

afaik the current red is designed for no spacers, just optional shims and a wavy washer, if it will not fit your frame when installed that way then it is incompatible with the frame, adding spacers is no good as the spindle isn't long enough

you may be able to just get another sram bb30 crank and swap the spindle...

pics below show nds of three sram bb30/pf30 cranksets, nothing special about them, one is from a 2010-ish red/srm power meter, others later

with the adjuster at minimum there's around 95 mm of spindle, which is way more than yours, if i were to remove the adjuster and fat spacer between it and the mounting there'd be well over 100m

which i think would be fine on your frame

ianjf2000

OK thanks for posting these. So your spindles are longer than mine? I am puzzled.

Do you think (and work with me here!) I may have been given the wrong non drive side arm by mistake? I am struggling to see how this crankset could fit any BB30. I am starting to think the non DS arm was designed to work with an integrated spider as it would have enough clearance, and not seperate arm which I have. I've looked around to see other sets like the set up I have, and all the spindles I see are black - and look longer?

Look at it this way, if mine were to fit with a 9mm spacer, if would need to take off 9mm from the width of the BB area, which would make it very narrow.

This is another listing from the same seller I purchased from:
http://www.trademe.co.nz/sports/cycling ... 785248.htm

Has there been a mix up here?

sungod

could be, if they're selling parts 'loose' perhaps they mixed up the ds with the wrong nds

but it's also possible they sent the correct parts and it's simply incompatible with the frame, plus there does seem to be a bit of extra width due to the ck bb