Does Ultegra 6800 (105-5800, Tiagra 4700) front derailleur work?
Are there anybody who have a perfect working Ultegra 6800 front derailleur? (I am afraid 105-5800 and Tiagra 4700 are the same.)
Here is my story:
I bought my B'Twin Ultra 720 AF at Decathlon superstore. The FD was not set up 100% perfect, and the (very helpful) mechanic guy was not able to fix that, neither. Shifting from small to large chainwheel needed enormous force and was not (always) possible in one step, the arm "hardened" up, I had to release and repeat. Also, in reverse direction sometimes it stopped at low position and did not move to low trim, only after shifted back to high, then again down to low trim with one big consecutive move.
I made precise setting according to the official Shimano manual literally, then made research on web for others experience, but nothing helped much, although the web is full with descriptions of other's problems. I have not the "cable converter judgement tool" but finally turned the "converter" ON and now it's better (but still far not perfect). By the Shimano docs the converter is for setting the distance of the movement of the front deraileur, but practically I found it was necessary to ensure a bit better leverage to the vertically pulled vertical arm. (Irony, but true.)
Now all 4 positions work in downward direction. Upward is still tricky: There is a "click" from low trim to low, but nothing happens on the front derailleur cage. For that I must perform a 2nd bigger move on the shifter without click, and that puts the cage in position. Fair amount of force is necessary, I must be careful not to shift to the high ring. There is no sign when the push is enough, similarly to my non-indexed shifter 35 years ago but needs much more force. Barely works, but not elegant.
I found out, if the derailleur hanger was 2mm inward to the frame, and the cage was adjusted into low trim position with the low limit adjusment screw, then the tilt of the (vertical) arm would be different, which would ensure better leverage and better operation. I tested this theory, set the low limit not to the right place but 2 mm higher, then derailleur did all movements very fine. Unfortunately not in the right place. Very few turn (max. 1/4) on the limit screw is really necessary (possible) and the arm is vertical with almost no leverage. Campagnolo style cable attachment (on the other side of the bolt, FD-CE011) might be better (what is drawn in Shimano manual as "wrong setting").
I am afraid that is a design problem of FD-9000, FD-6800, FD-5800, FD-4700 front derailleurs. If you check the new FD-9100 you can see the design has been changed, the arm is not vertical, no "converter" anymore, no possibility having a dead center of the arm position how the cable pulls that, and the necessary leverage is always ensured.
I bought a bike with Ultegra setup not because my performance requires that. I sat back on road bike just this year after 25 years break (and 1 year mountainbiking). Before the break I wanted Shimano 600 (the predecessor) and now I could afford. I supposed it works perfect. Maybe I should play lottery for Campag Super Record
I am really curious, if anybody have better result whith that type FD. One definite click on the arm one definite move of the cage. Both directions. Are there anybody? What is the experience?
Here is my story:
I bought my B'Twin Ultra 720 AF at Decathlon superstore. The FD was not set up 100% perfect, and the (very helpful) mechanic guy was not able to fix that, neither. Shifting from small to large chainwheel needed enormous force and was not (always) possible in one step, the arm "hardened" up, I had to release and repeat. Also, in reverse direction sometimes it stopped at low position and did not move to low trim, only after shifted back to high, then again down to low trim with one big consecutive move.
I made precise setting according to the official Shimano manual literally, then made research on web for others experience, but nothing helped much, although the web is full with descriptions of other's problems. I have not the "cable converter judgement tool" but finally turned the "converter" ON and now it's better (but still far not perfect). By the Shimano docs the converter is for setting the distance of the movement of the front deraileur, but practically I found it was necessary to ensure a bit better leverage to the vertically pulled vertical arm. (Irony, but true.)
Now all 4 positions work in downward direction. Upward is still tricky: There is a "click" from low trim to low, but nothing happens on the front derailleur cage. For that I must perform a 2nd bigger move on the shifter without click, and that puts the cage in position. Fair amount of force is necessary, I must be careful not to shift to the high ring. There is no sign when the push is enough, similarly to my non-indexed shifter 35 years ago but needs much more force. Barely works, but not elegant.
I found out, if the derailleur hanger was 2mm inward to the frame, and the cage was adjusted into low trim position with the low limit adjusment screw, then the tilt of the (vertical) arm would be different, which would ensure better leverage and better operation. I tested this theory, set the low limit not to the right place but 2 mm higher, then derailleur did all movements very fine. Unfortunately not in the right place. Very few turn (max. 1/4) on the limit screw is really necessary (possible) and the arm is vertical with almost no leverage. Campagnolo style cable attachment (on the other side of the bolt, FD-CE011) might be better (what is drawn in Shimano manual as "wrong setting").
I am afraid that is a design problem of FD-9000, FD-6800, FD-5800, FD-4700 front derailleurs. If you check the new FD-9100 you can see the design has been changed, the arm is not vertical, no "converter" anymore, no possibility having a dead center of the arm position how the cable pulls that, and the necessary leverage is always ensured.
I bought a bike with Ultegra setup not because my performance requires that. I sat back on road bike just this year after 25 years break (and 1 year mountainbiking). Before the break I wanted Shimano 600 (the predecessor) and now I could afford. I supposed it works perfect. Maybe I should play lottery for Campag Super Record
I am really curious, if anybody have better result whith that type FD. One definite click on the arm one definite move of the cage. Both directions. Are there anybody? What is the experience?
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Comments
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The Ultegra 6800 FD on my Synapse works perfectly - I ain't no mechanical genius and if I can get it right then anybody should be able to!Cannondale Synapse Carbon Ultegra
Kinesis Racelight 4S
Specialized Allez Elite (Frame/Forks for sale)
Specialized Crosstrail Comp Disk (For sale)0 -
Hard going.. my only thought... is the cable routed correctly for the converter position you are currently using?
I can change up with my DuraAce7900 from small to big with 1 finger, so front mechs can be nice.
Personally, if I was having so much grief with mechanical, electronic would be next step.0 -
I made a setup guide in this thread viewtopic.php?t=12976309
Give it a try. These FD's require much more cable tension than any previous FD's. The most important step is positioning the FD cage in line with the big chainring when clamping the cable, like in this video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-5jnNScKhRs
There are 2 ways to do it. Either use the low limit screw turned inwards to align the cage (then unwind the screw after clamping the cable), or jam something in the cage like a allen key (then clamp the cable), then remove the allen key.
This technique is needed to get the cable tension high enough. It's difficult to do it by hand strengh alone or using an inline adjuster. If it still wont shift that well have after this tutorial. Another thing to try is clamping the cable over the top of the bolt and ignoring the converter tab completely. This should give the cable a little bit more leverage.
This works better on my Cannondale Supersix i've expermenited extensively with it. That's my go to method now. It may work on your bike too. The 'official' cable tab converter way is a method but it's not the perfect method by my findings. Also make sure there isn't any unwanted friction anywhere in the cable, tight radius of the outer etc, try to find the best curve coming out of the STI's and along the handle bar. Also lube the bottom bracket cable guide. These long arm FD's are really sensitive to how freely the cable can move.0 -
Totally agree with the post above, in fact I'm only posting to confirm I do exactly the same even though I'm not sure it's the official shimano way.
The long arm design has been great on two of my bikes when I set it up as above. I bought a new bike and was excited to get that new shifting experience but was soon disappointed as the front started to go wrong. I re routed and used the cable tension trick of sticking a 6mm hex key in the mech and now it works perfectly.
All that being said, I now may have the problem that the long front derailleur arm limits me using wide tyres so I'll be all over the new front derailleur when they come out. Also I've installed sram 1 by on my tt bike and it's an absolute dream compared to this malarkey so perhaps this will be my future for all bikes.0 -
Thank you all, I am over all possible setting, yours trailflow was one method.
If there is not a necessary angle between the cable and the swing arm then initial cable tension does not help, if too much then just misfits high trim.
chrisw12, non-long arm design has already came out, that is Ultegra FD-R8000. http://bike.shimano.com/content/sac-bik ... r8000.html
Features: (quotation, subtract)
- Lighter front shifting operation
- New link construction matches the force curve of the hand more naturally to reduce effort at the end of shifting
- 100% perfect setting
- TL-FD68 and turning converter is not required in assembly
- Easy and precise setting0 -
If there is not a necessary angle between the cable and the swing arm then initial cable tension does not help,
Not sure what you mean by this. Have you got it shifting ?
The converter tool is not for 'setting the distance movement of the front deraileur' as you said previously. It's for determining which angle the cable comes from the bb to the FD cable clamp. If the cable is either side of the marker line on the converter tool then its either ON or OFF. or both settings should work if it falls in the middle on the line. The ON position is general position that works.
I wouldnt worry too much about the high trim. You should really only need to use it for the big/big combo. I have never found the high trim to offer nearly as much cage movement as the low trim does, or ever needed it as much as the low trim which gets alot more use overall.
As long as the shifting between the rings and the low trim is working then your 98% there.0 -
I mean it is a 'simple machine'.trailflow wrote:Not sure what you mean by this. Have you got it shifting ?
The arm is almost vertical, and the angle of the attached cable is acute, therefore the (virtual) strong arm - the distance between the cable pull and the pivot point of the (real) swing arm - is too short. Therefore high power is necessary to pull against the spring.
It is 'Law of the lever' by Arcimedes.
Not that sets, but that is to determine how to set 'the distance movement of the front derailleur'. It was a quotation from official Shimano dealer manual http://si.shimano.com/#/en/DM/FD0002 see page 9 at the very top. It is not in contradiction to what you have written, but explains what reason that is necessary for.trailflow wrote:The converter tool is not for 'setting the distance movement of the front deraileur' as you said previously.
Neither me. I am disappointed because the operation needs enormous power to shift from the small chainring to the large. I am afraid it will damage the internal mechanism of the control lever once. Also, because of the necessary huge initial force shift from low trim to low position needs extra attention, almost not possible without accidentaly shift to the high position.trailflow wrote:I wouldnt worry too much about the high trim.
It is not what I expected from Ultegra.
If there was a more obtuse angle between the cable line and the arm, then the (virtual) strong arm would be longer, therefore less power necessary and the operation smoother. That's it.0
