Why is Pantani revered and Armstrong hated ?

smithy21

I'll take the sociopath over the pirate schtick anytime.

webboo

Matthewfalle wrote:

mfin wrote:

Show a little respect people, Lance Armstrong is clearly the greatest cyclist in history.

Well, he saw Sheryl Crow's boobs, so I suppose - to a certain extent - he's got that over us.

Imagine if he had seen TDNFNATN's boobs.....

However he is so empathic he dumped her when she got cancer in them.

davebradswmb

For me it is all about the racing. Armstrong turned the TDF into a boring procession, Pantani lit up the race. I doubt there was anyone in the peloton in those days that wasn't doping, just Armstrong did it better with more single-mindedness.

Lanterne_Rogue

davebradswmb wrote:

For me it is all about the racing. Armstrong turned the TDF into a boring procession, Pantani lit up the race. I doubt there was anyone in the peloton in those days that wasn't doping, just Armstrong did it better with more single-mindedness.

I agree with this. Pantani danced along the line between success and failure. Armstrong never seemed to entertain any risk. If you're going to cheat, at least do something entertaining with it (Floyd Landis' testosterone-fuelled rampage is still one of my fondest memories, partly for the sheer idiocy of trying to get away with it).

FocusZing

As an American coming over and playing a European sport, I was in a different position. I was on the other side, not part of the ingrained culture and seen by some as the outsider. Pantani was right at home, he was on his turf and he was the main man. If I was the carpenter, then he was the artist. He had all the panache in the world, all the panache you could fit into a small climber, and I, if I'm honest, didn't have that.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/arm ... he-artist/

TheBigBean

In the years before Pantani, GTs were won by TTs. Pure climbers didn't get a look in. Then along came Pantani who could put mins into other riders in the mountains, and still lose minutes in the TTs. It was a contrast and it was exciting. He also managed the nearly dying routine plus comeback which always helps with popularity.

A modern day equivalent, in some ways, would be Dumoulin. All GTs are currently won by climbers, so winning in TTs is different.

Armstrong won easily, raced one race a year, had a really really strong team, was good at everything (TTs, mountains etc.) and was generally an unpleasant person.

rick_chasey

Yeah, the losing time in the TT and still winning bit is quite important.

Armstrong usually won both TTs and MTFs.

As does Froome, etc.

kleinstroker

Most of this happened before my resurgence in interest in cycling, I'm pretty glad I missed it all to be honest. I think if I had watched LA for years on end I might never have come back to cycling when I did. I had never heard of Pantani until a few years ago, so not sure what all the excitement was about.

rick_chasey

kleinstroker wrote:

Most of this happened before my resurgence in interest in cycling, I'm pretty glad I missed it all to be honest. I think if I had watched LA for years on end I might never have come back to cycling when I did. I had never heard of Pantani until a few years ago, so not sure what all the excitement was about.

Have you not seen this?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ocv78XS2Lw

svetty

No one has yet mentioned Indurain. Again a rider who is feted but who is suspect.........

salsiccia1

Svetty wrote:

No one has yet mentioned Indurain. Again a rider who is feted but who is suspect.........

Not in the same league, my friend. Not particularly feted, suspected but not proven or caught (yes I know).

TheBigBean

I think the pre-crash stuff was when he gained lots of fans. Take the 1994 TDF for example.

In stage 9 of the 1994 tour, this was the top 5. Almost half the field finished over 12 minutes behind Indurain.
1. Miguel Indurain: 1 hour 15 minutes 58 seconds
2. Tony Rominger @ 2 minutes
3. Armand de las Cuevas @ 4 minutes 22 seconds
4. Thierry Marie @ 4 minutes 45 seconds
5. Chris Boardman @ 5 minutes 27 seconds

I don't know how much Pantani lost in that TT, but by stage 11 he was 15 mins behind. By Paris he had moved up to 3rd on GC, won the young rider contest and finished only 7 mins behind. He did this by taking time on every single climb.

Also, note that that year he finished 2nd in the Giro ahead of Indurain. Again, by taking lots of time in the mountains. Will we ever see the same two riders on the podium of the tour and giro in the same year again?

RichN95.

TheBigBean wrote:

Also, note that that year he finished 2nd in the Giro ahead of Indurain. Again, by taking lots of time in the mountains. Will we ever see the same two riders on the podium of the tour and giro in the same year again?

Probably not due to the overwhelming commercial importance of the Tour these days and the rarity of riders doing both. However, we did see the same two riders on the podium of the Tour and the Vuelta last year.

TheBigBean

Alp d'huez in 1995. Managed to nearly go the wrong way at the end, but still clocked 38 mins.

Also noteworthy how many motorbikes and cars there are. Much talk of this being a recent problem, but it's fairly chaotic in this video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNB8fKFmiek

ugo.santalucia

RichN95 wrote:

TheBigBean wrote:

Also, note that that year he finished 2nd in the Giro ahead of Indurain. Again, by taking lots of time in the mountains. Will we ever see the same two riders on the podium of the tour and giro in the same year again?

Probably not due to the overwhelming commercial importance of the Tour these days and the rarity of riders doing both. However, we did see the same two riders on the podium of the Tour and the Vuelta last year.

The pecking order of GT hasn't changed much. The difference is that now it's near impossible to bring a top flight team to two events. Racing has become much more teamwork and it's difficult to prepare a whole team to be in top conditions in two races... in the past 1-2 decent domestiques would have been enough.
Team Sky at the Giro is pretty much inexistent

rick_chasey

Dates were different too.

1993 Giro: 23 May – 13 June
1993 Tour: 3 July to 25 July

That's what 3 week?

FocusZing

TheBigBean wrote:

In the years before Pantani, GTs were won by TTs. Pure climbers didn't get a look in. Then along came Pantani who could put mins into other riders in the mountains, and still lose minutes in the TTs. It was a contrast and it was exciting. He also managed the nearly dying routine plus comeback which always helps with popularity.

A modern day equivalent, in some ways, would be Dumoulin. All GTs are currently won by climbers, so winning in TTs is different.

Armstrong won easily, raced one race a year, had a really really strong team, was good at everything (TTs, mountains etc.) and was generally an unpleasant person.

That's why I think it's great there are the other jerseys. I know it's not the same as GC, but it adds another dimension and goal, a side interest for viewers.

rick_chasey

Err, what?

FocusZing

Is LA the sort of guy you would want on your team during an earlier period of GTs?

Matthewfalle

Is LA the sort of guy you would want to have a pint with?

I'd happily share a glass of vino rosso with Pantani.

meanredspider

Matthewfalle wrote:

I'd happily share a glass of vino rosso with Pantani.

He may not be great company any more....

FocusZing

Yeah.


Ha!

Vino'sGhost

meanredspider wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

I'd happily share a glass of vino rosso with Pantani.

He may not be great company any more....

Well at the least wont have got to him

DeVlaeminck

Matthewfalle wrote:

Is LA the sort of guy you would want to have a pint with?

I'd happily share a glass of vino rosso with Pantani.

Really? None of us knew him but in the Rendell biography and the one by his manager Pantani comes across as a immature personality who is indulged because of his talent and when the bubble bursts is unable to cope with reality and slipped into drug addiction. I get the attraction to him as a cyclist but one of my cycling heroes is Robert Millar but by all accounts he wouldn't have been great on a night out.

RichN95.

In general, people who are doing a lot of coke aren't the best drinking partners.

bobmcstuff

RichN95 wrote:

In general, people who are doing a lot of coke aren't the best drinking partners.

Never a truer word was spoken.

inseine

Matthewfalle wrote:

Is LA the sort of guy you would want to have a pint with?

I'd happily share a glass of vino rosso with Pantani.

For many reasons that's a weird comment

kingstongraham

Matthewfalle wrote:

Is LA the sort of guy you would want to have a pint with?

I'd happily share a glass of vino rosso with Pantani.

Two straws?

mamba80

Matthewfalle wrote:

Is LA the sort of guy you would want to have a pint with?

I'd happily share a glass of vino rosso with Pantani.

LA, anytime! i d understand him and he d have a lot to say and i bet he d pay his rounds too lol!

Pantani has been dead a while, we d get funny looks if he turned up for a drink.

Bo Duke

The pre-Tour references to LA have started early this season....

By Tour week I fully expect comments of 'fake test results', 'fake interview' etc...

I blame the Russians.