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Disinterested grandparents

macsmacs Posts: 209
edited May 2017 in The cake stop
A little geographic background: my parents live in London, my sister and her husband and children live about 10 minute walk from my parents. My wife's parents and bother and sister in law live about 5 mins walk from us in Nottingham. Wife's mother is disabled (m.s.) and dad is full time carer for her.

But all this aside our families on both sides are not very interested in their grandchildren. My parents would be a bit more involved but they live 135 miles away so it's understandable that they aren't always helping but even when they come to stay or we go to them, they don't volunteer to look after them or get up early so we can have a lie in. My parents are so different with my sister's sister's kids. Maybe because they see them more often or maybe because they think we're coping whilst my sister did have a mini meltdown after her first was born. For whatever reason, it's hard to see my parents playing with my nephew or cuddling my niece and ignoring my kids.

My wife's parents show very little interest in our kids, they only see their grandkids when we invite them round and they don't really try to talk or engage with them when they do see them. My wife's bother and sister in law are just the same. Again, that's hard to see when they only live down the road.

Does anyone else have similar experiences with grandparents? I know we're lucky, my kids have 4 grandparents and there are no fall outs to have to deal with. My wife and I are in good and relatively safe jobs and we live in decent comfort - I don't say that to be braggy, just so you know we're not struggling to pay for childcare etc i.e. that's not the issue here.

If I had to sum up my kid's grandparents quickly, it would be with this statistic; my eldest is 5 and a half and me or my wife have been the person to get up with him everyday of his life apart from 1 and that was only because our daughter was throwing up blood in the night and we both wanted to be at the hospital (i.e. not your average day).

Any advice from people in similar situations would be nice to hear.
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  • sniper68sniper68 Posts: 2,910
    My parents haven't seen my 16 year old daughter since she was 6 and have never clapped eyes on my soon to be 10 year old son.My brother has 5 kids ranging from 9 to 20 and they've never clapped eyes on 4 of those either.
    Some people are just odd.
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 9,141
    My parents used to commute from Sussex to London every week day to look after my sisters son for the first 6 years of his life. They can't really be bothered now with my son. It does irk me a bit, my son is a diamond and loves them to pieces but they're both in their 70's this year so I guess they are entitled to a rest. I will make sure I make more effort for any grandchildren I might have.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,262
    I have a grandson who will be three on the first of June. I spent most of yesterday with him as my daughters child minder is on holiday and I feel richer for the experience. I will look after him next Thursdays the child minder still being on holiday and the Thursday after it's his birthday. So I will be with him again, the missus probably would have him to stay every week if she could. That's us, however his other grandmother hasn't seen him since his last birthday. She lives 20 miles away, it would appear that she is only interested now and again but then again she got history in that she left 3 of her kids with their step dad when she left him.
    My daughter and son in law have decided if she's not bothered, they are not so they don't bother with his side of the family.
    So what I sort of saying if your not bothered with my kids then I'm not bothered about you.
    Families eh.
  • bendertherobotbendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    My parents fell out with me/us because we moved from being 400 yards away from them to being 800 yards away from them.

    And they voted Brexit.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
    https://twitter.com/roubaixcc
    Facebook? No. Just say no.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    macs wrote:
    A little geographic background: my parents live in London, my sister and her husband and children live about 10 minute walk from my parents. My wife's parents and bother and sister in law live about 5 mins walk from us in Nottingham. Wife's mother is disabled (m.s.) and dad is full time carer for her.

    But all this aside our families on both sides are not very interested in their grandchildren. My parents would be a bit more involved but they live 135 miles away so it's understandable that they aren't always helping but even when they come to stay or we go to them, they don't volunteer to look after them or get up early so we can have a lie in. My parents are so different with my sister's sister's kids. Maybe because they see them more often or maybe because they think we're coping whilst my sister did have a mini meltdown after her first was born. For whatever reason, it's hard to see my parents playing with my nephew or cuddling my niece and ignoring my kids.

    My wife's parents show very little interest in our kids, they only see their grandkids when we invite them round and they don't really try to talk or engage with them when they do see them. My wife's bother and sister in law are just the same. Again, that's hard to see when they only live down the road.

    Does anyone else have similar experiences with grandparents? I know we're lucky, my kids have 4 grandparents and there are no fall outs to have to deal with. My wife and I are in good and relatively safe jobs and we live in decent comfort - I don't say that to be braggy, just so you know we're not struggling to pay for childcare etc i.e. that's not the issue here.

    If I had to sum up my kid's grandparents quickly, it would be with this statistic; my eldest is 5 and a half and me or my wife have been the person to get up with him everyday of his life apart from 1 and that was only because our daughter was throwing up blood in the night and we both wanted to be at the hospital (i.e. not your average day).

    Any advice from people in similar situations would be nice to hear.

    Sorry bud but your wives parents have MS and is a carer... & your parents live 135miles away!! not exactly "down the road" and both sets of parents think your managing very well.... maybe they ve enough on their plate and dont want to appear over bearing???

    why dont you speak to them about how you both feel????

    the reality is that not all grandparents are kind and cuddly and dote on their grand kids, if they dont respond to you talking to them, then accept them for what they are, first Q i d be asking myself was "how were they as parents?"
  • macsmacs Posts: 209
    edited May 2017
    mamba80 wrote:
    macs wrote:
    A little geographic background: my parents live in London, my sister and her husband and children live about 10 minute walk from my parents. My wife's parents and bother and sister in law live about 5 mins walk from us in Nottingham. Wife's mother is disabled (m.s.) and dad is full time carer for her.

    But all this aside our families on both sides are not very interested in their grandchildren. My parents would be a bit more involved but they live 135 miles away so it's understandable that they aren't always helping but even when they come to stay or we go to them, they don't volunteer to look after them or get up early so we can have a lie in. My parents are so different with my sister's sister's kids. Maybe because they see them more often or maybe because they think we're coping whilst my sister did have a mini meltdown after her first was born. For whatever reason, it's hard to see my parents playing with my nephew or cuddling my niece and ignoring my kids.

    My wife's parents show very little interest in our kids, they only see their grandkids when we invite them round and they don't really try to talk or engage with them when they do see them. My wife's bother and sister in law are just the same. Again, that's hard to see when they only live down the road.

    Does anyone else have similar experiences with grandparents? I know we're lucky, my kids have 4 grandparents and there are no fall outs to have to deal with. My wife and I are in good and relatively safe jobs and we live in decent comfort - I don't say that to be braggy, just so you know we're not struggling to pay for childcare etc i.e. that's not the issue here.

    If I had to sum up my kid's grandparents quickly, it would be with this statistic; my eldest is 5 and a half and me or my wife have been the person to get up with him everyday of his life apart from 1 and that was only because our daughter was throwing up blood in the night and we both wanted to be at the hospital (i.e. not your average day).

    Any advice from people in similar situations would be nice to hear.

    Sorry bud but your wives parents have MS and is a carer...

    They still manage the energy / inclination to disappear on holiday for 10 weeks a year, often driving to the South of France!

    Besides, they can still talk so why not engage our kids a bit more when they do come round. Reading a book with them would make the kid's days. We've mentioned this but it never happens.
  • macsmacs Posts: 209
    seanoconn wrote:
    My parents used to commute from Sussex to London every week day to look after my sisters son for the first 6 years of his life. They can't really be bothered now with my son. It does irk me a bit, my son is a diamond and loves them to pieces but they're both in their 70's this year so I guess they are entitled to a rest. I will make sure I make more effort for any grandchildren I might have.

    Exactly 2 points that have crossed my mind. They are mid-late 60s so could be excused for that. And that I will try harder with my grandkids if I can.
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,262
    As I mentioned above I spend a fair bit of time with my grandson, at the moment we just have the one grandchild. As well as enjoying his company I would like to pass some of my interests Cycling, rock climbing amongst other things and I hope I can pass on some positive influences. Also given I'm nearly 62 I'm trying to do these things while I'm physically able and I'd like him to remember me in a good way.
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 9,141
    Webboo wrote:
    As I mentioned above I spend a fair bit of time with my grandson, at the moment we just have the one grandchild. As well as enjoying his company I would like to pass some of my interests Cycling, rock climbing amongst other things and I hope I can pass on some positive influences. Also given I'm nearly 62 I'm trying to do these things while I'm physically able and I'd like him to remember me in a good way.
    Sounds ideal Webboo, good man.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    macs wrote:
    mamba80 wrote:
    macs wrote:
    A little geographic background: my parents live in London, my sister and her husband and children live about 10 minute walk from my parents. My wife's parents and bother and sister in law live about 5 mins walk from us in Nottingham. Wife's mother is disabled (m.s.) and dad is full time carer for her.

    But all this aside our families on both sides are not very interested in their grandchildren. My parents would be a bit more involved but they live 135 miles away so it's understandable that they aren't always helping but even when they come to stay or we go to them, they don't volunteer to look after them or get up early so we can have a lie in. My parents are so different with my sister's sister's kids. Maybe because they see them more often or maybe because they think we're coping whilst my sister did have a mini meltdown after her first was born. For whatever reason, it's hard to see my parents playing with my nephew or cuddling my niece and ignoring my kids.

    My wife's parents show very little interest in our kids, they only see their grandkids when we invite them round and they don't really try to talk or engage with them when they do see them. My wife's bother and sister in law are just the same. Again, that's hard to see when they only live down the road.

    Does anyone else have similar experiences with grandparents? I know we're lucky, my kids have 4 grandparents and there are no fall outs to have to deal with. My wife and I are in good and relatively safe jobs and we live in decent comfort - I don't say that to be braggy, just so you know we're not struggling to pay for childcare etc i.e. that's not the issue here.

    If I had to sum up my kid's grandparents quickly, it would be with this statistic; my eldest is 5 and a half and me or my wife have been the person to get up with him everyday of his life apart from 1 and that was only because our daughter was throwing up blood in the night and we both wanted to be at the hospital (i.e. not your average day).

    Any advice from people in similar situations would be nice to hear.

    Sorry bud but your wives parents have MS and is a carer...

    They still manage the energy / inclination to disappear on holiday for 10 weeks a year, often driving to the South of France!

    Besides, they can still talk so why not engage our kids a bit more when they do come round. Reading a book with them would make the kid's days. We've mentioned this but it never happens.

    i do feel for you, i do, when i needed my mum and the in laws grandparents, they were there for me and my daughter, the in-laws rather too much but considering what happened to their daughter, hardly surprising really.

    you may have to accept that they are not nice people in the way you want and need, if you talk to them and they still dont engage, then realise you cant make people behave in the way you want,
    i would def talk very firmly to them about how you both feel, if they still are indifferent, then move on and dont waste any more time on them, people who cant enage with toddlers usually have a few issues themselves.
  • macsmacs Posts: 209
    seanoconn wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    As I mentioned above I spend a fair bit of time with my grandson, at the moment we just have the one grandchild. As well as enjoying his company I would like to pass some of my interests Cycling, rock climbing amongst other things and I hope I can pass on some positive influences. Also given I'm nearly 62 I'm trying to do these things while I'm physically able and I'd like him to remember me in a good way.
    Sounds ideal Webboo, good man.
    Ditto that. Can you be my dad please Webboo?
  • webboowebboo Posts: 4,262
    seanoconn wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    As I mentioned above I spend a fair bit of time with my grandson, at the moment we just have the one grandchild. As well as enjoying his company I would like to pass some of my interests Cycling, rock climbing amongst other things and I hope I can pass on some positive influences. Also given I'm nearly 62 I'm trying to do these things while I'm physically able and I'd like him to remember me in a good way.
    Sounds ideal Webboo, good man.
    I'm wondering whether he'd appreciate me leaving him my tweed suits in my will :D
  • seanoconnseanoconn Posts: 9,141
    Webboo wrote:
    seanoconn wrote:
    Webboo wrote:
    As I mentioned above I spend a fair bit of time with my grandson, at the moment we just have the one grandchild. As well as enjoying his company I would like to pass some of my interests Cycling, rock climbing amongst other things and I hope I can pass on some positive influences. Also given I'm nearly 62 I'm trying to do these things while I'm physically able and I'd like him to remember me in a good way.
    Sounds ideal Webboo, good man.
    I'm wondering whether he'd appreciate me leaving him my tweed suits in my will :D
    Throw in the cap and he'd be well chuffed.
    Pinno, מלך אידיוט וחרא מכונאי
  • crispybug2crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    My ex wife's mum hasn't seen my kids for ten years and my ex has since had twins with her boyfriend and they've never seen their Grandma at all

    I personally never liked my ex mum in law but I genuinely don't understand what the f*ck is going on in her head!
  • Garry HGarry H Posts: 6,639
    My parents fell out with me/us because we moved from being 400 yards away from them to being 800 yards away from them.

    And they voted Brexit.

    Wrong side of the village?

    My parents live 300 miles away and my inlaws live on the other side of the Irish Sea.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 9,935
    Ah people eh? Just cos they iz gettin older doeznt mean dey is gettin better, innit.

    Sez me with 2 grandkids, and good relationships all round (bar the censored druggie father who bailed as they were being born).

    Talk, and if no better, bollox to it, move on.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 7,798
    edited May 2017
    I think my mum has seen more of my kids growing up than I have. At 15 and 18 two of them both go round before school and my mum drives them the rest of the way whilst there is usually at least one of te three goes round on the way home from school and has their tea there ( we live 2.5 miles from the school and my mum lives half way). There are some downsides - you expect grandparwnts to spoil their grandkids a bit but when that happens every day as a parent you do have to tell them when it's going too far - it used to be about unlimited supplies of sweets and a sweet dessert every day after tea - now it's more about easy access to money though to be fair the two girls don't take advantage it's just my son and even he could be worse.

    The upsides of course - free child care, never having to fork out pocket money, and seeing more of your family because you are forever having to go round and get tem as they are due at football/cubs/scouts or whatever and aren't home yet.
    [Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]
  • tlw1tlw1 Posts: 20,613
    My parents have taken about a year to get over us moving from 600 yards away to 25 miles. But despite this they are good if we need help and the wife's mother is fantastic, often staying over when we need help

    Yet, if you talk to the wife's sister she is and this is a quote 'a shitty grandmother' and never helps her. What she doesn't realise is in exchange for the help we help her with stuff at her house and more importantly have her over to stay whenever she wants company

    Got to admit we are lucky
  • oxomanoxoman Posts: 10,461
    Sadly its a sign of the times. Families arent like they used to be due partly to increased distances caused by modern living. I lost my parents before i married and subsequently remarried so both lots of my kids never knew my parents. I know had they been around that the kids would have been spoilt rotten but not with material things. Both sets of inlaws showed interest at an early age but as soon as the kids showed any signs of independent thinking they didnt want to know as it was to much trouble to engage with them. My youngest has recently turned round to his granparents at a mature age of 11 and said that he wont bother coming to their house because their boring and never engage with him. He stated that they showed more interest in their stupid yappy dog and horses on the telly and didnt deserve grandkids and promptly left them speachless. Did it change anyrhing between them. No. Did it help, yes it took out 11yr old to tell them what we had neen telling them for years. No longer have to go around so more time with the boys. Remember you can choose your friends but sadly mot your family. Its their loss sadly.
    Too many bikes according to Mrs O.
  • bendertherobotbendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    Garry H wrote:
    My parents fell out with me/us because we moved from being 400 yards away from them to being 800 yards away from them.

    And they voted Brexit.

    Wrong side of the village?

    My parents live 300 miles away and my inlaws live on the other side of the Irish Sea.

    There were other complications I guess. Including having the Mrs' mother move in next door to us (2 new houses on a new street).

    But, to be fair, she had just lost her husband of 60 years.
    My blog: http://www.roubaixcycling.cc (kit reviews and other musings)
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  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    oxoman wrote:
    Sadly its a sign of the times. Families arent like they used to be due partly to increased distances caused by modern living. I lost my parents before i married and subsequently remarried so both lots of my kids never knew my parents. I know had they been around that the kids would have been spoilt rotten but not with material things. Both sets of inlaws showed interest at an early age but as soon as the kids showed any signs of independent thinking they didnt want to know as it was to much trouble to engage with them. My youngest has recently turned round to his granparents at a mature age of 11 and said that he wont bother coming to their house because their boring and never engage with him. He stated that they showed more interest in their stupid yappy dog and horses on the telly and didnt deserve grandkids and promptly left them speachless. Did it change anyrhing between them. No. Did it help, yes it took out 11yr old to tell them what we had neen telling them for years. No longer have to go around so more time with the boys. Remember you can choose your friends but sadly mot your family. Its their loss sadly.

    bl00dy right it s a sign of the times, at any age, i d no sooner have spoken to my nan and grandpop (who were equally disinterested) like that than jump over the moon, my feet, as my mum would have said "wouldnt have touched the ground"

    And if my daughter had spoken to any of her elderly relatives like that i d have been ashamed of her, its not an 11yo's job to verbally discipline their Grandparents.

    Grandparents have bought up kids once before, maybe some have had such a terrible time of it, they dont want anything more to do with?
    Just as not all grandparents are perfect, not all children are particularly nice either :?:
  • oxomanoxoman Posts: 10,461
    Sadly my 11yr old felt he had no choice but to tell them how he felt. He didn't rant and certainly didn't abuse them. Certainly wasn't ashamed of him for explaining very politely and in an adult manner how he felt. Apparently it's all my fault for marrying their beloved daughter and having 2 very much loved children with her and in doing so took their live in skivvy away. Sadly in our case the grandparents are so out of touch they're not even on the right planet.
    Too many bikes according to Mrs O.
  • macsmacs Posts: 209
    Its hard when our friends have parents look after their kids quite often. For example two of our best mates are away for 4 days for their anniversary. No way would our kids be looked after by their grandparents for that long.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 26,773
    macs wrote:

    They still manage the energy / inclination to disappear on holiday for 10 weeks a year, often driving to the South of France!

    Besides, they can still talk so why not engage our kids a bit more when they do come round. Reading a book with them would make the kid's days. We've mentioned this but it never happens.

    Good on them!

    Don't know what to say... I find it difficult to relate to my nephew, who is 10... his only interest are videogames and very different from the sort of arcades I used to play when I was in my teen, also not the kind of games we could play together. He doesn't care about football, cycling or anything we could be doing outdoor together. He has no interest in any school stuff, which I could help him with... doesn't like reading books...
    Frankly he is quite dull and I am not uber keen to spend time with him. We once had a bit of fun with water guns in the Italian summer heat, except he ended up crying when I showered him with a bucket... :roll:

    I am not saying your kids are dull, but maybe your parents find it difficult to relate to a generation of kids who are constantly wired to a screen... I certainly do
  • pblakeneypblakeney Posts: 19,116
    macs wrote:
    Its hard when our friends have parents look after their kids quite often. For example two of our best mates are away for 4 days for their anniversary. No way would our kids be looked after by their grandparents for that long.
    Beginning to sound like you are mostly miffed at missing out on free babysitting.
    The above may be fact, or fiction, I may be serious, I may be jesting.
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  • surrey_commutersurrey_commuter Posts: 15,852
    You should all pop over to pensionradar and hear what they have to say about their ungrateful offspring who continuously try and press gang them into being unpaid careers.

    My dad makes a real effort with my kids but you can see my mum is totally uninterested. That is her choice and I have no issue with it.
  • orraloonorraloon Posts: 9,935
    We have the 2 y.o. twin grandchildren tonight and tomorrow night, to allow my stepdaughter to compete in her first triathlon tomorrow.

    They are a joy, but they are bleepin' hard work. It is lovely to see them develop and grow, each time they have changed and moved on in many different ways. But it is full on during the day, they take all of our attention, bedtime (about 20 mins ago) comes as a relief.

    When it's your children you are younger and either more able to or just do cope better. As my stepdaughter is on her own, full respect to her for the good job she is doing bringing them up singlehanded.

    Is individual's choice to interact or not with their grandchildren. Maybe some individuals don't want the hard work, done that, someone else's turn. Downside of that is they miss out on so much. Daytime TV or twins TV? For us, twins every time.

    Now where's my beer?
  • twist83twist83 Posts: 761
    Going to play Devil's advocate here... Prepare for incoming.

    While I agree maybe it is a tough situation to be in. However they don't volunteer to look after them or let us have a lie in. You decided to have kids, why should they do this if they don't want to?

    Myself and my partner have no kids and no zero desire to ever have any. My sister has 4. My mum looked after my father for 4 years due to several strokes. Alongside this she continued to spend a lot of time running round after my sister and her kids.

    When he passed, she retired from work slightly after this. After a chat with her, she wanted to scale back the child duties. This didn't go down well with my sister and it caused friction. My mother has earned her rest and why should she spend it running round after the kids even more if she doesn't want to?

    Simple answer is she shouldn't. She is now being more 'selfish' and enjoying what she wants. For the record she still does see and help an awful lot. But it is the same context. Or there is an underlying issue you have mentioned or talked about?

    My point is, if you have kids then be prepared to look after them yourselves and not rely on others. See the help as a bonus.

    Much in the same way myself and my other half don't expect anyone to pay our mortgage, car payment or help/assist with the other things we can do consequently as a result of not having any children.

    As for the person who said anyone who cannot engage with toddlers has issues. What a load of garbage. I don't have issues, I just don't very much want or have a paternal instinct toward toddlers and children as a whole.

    Just trying to get people to see it from the other side. Upshot is either they have issues with you for some reason, as a lot of family's do. Or they simply just do not want to.
  • slowbikeslowbike Posts: 8,498
    I'm a father of one who has 4 grandparents who he sees every week.

    We do remind our parents that it's their choice to look after him (one day a week each - although I doubt they'd really mind if it was more) and if they feel they can't or don't want to then it's our problem.
    For my in-laws it's the only grandchild they see regularly - the others live away and visit rarely, in-laws are not that mobile. They love having our son around and I think it helps keep them more active.
    For my parents - he's the last of 6 - 3 they don't see much of due to distance - from our perspective it seemed to take a while for them to engage with him and we've "had a conversation" - I/we want them to be grandparents doing fun stuff - I don't want them to be surrogate parents as they seemed to become with 2 granddaughters - although he will need some discipline.

    I'd hate for our parents not to want to engage with our son - how could you explain that to him in a way that doesn't make him feel bad? Even if you've got a mobility challenged parent, they can still engage mentally - making up stories, reading books, drawing - anything really - kids thrive on stimulation.

    We've had 1 night without our son in the 2 years - it's hard work - we'd love the grandparents to take him even just for a night - we drop hints, but they need to offer as it's quite a commitment - even for just one night! (although, sods law says the night they have him, he'll go to bed nicely, sleep through and wake up late ...)
  • daniel_bdaniel_b Posts: 10,151
    We have a nearly 4 year old daughter, and my parents were then living in Spain, and are now in Mauritius - they are very much interested in her, and want to speak to her (we are flying over next month) but of course any babysitting options are zero.

    My gf's parents live 45 miles away, and her father is currently going through Chemo treatment, and her mother is not terrifically able, with two damaged shoulders, so again we don't expect much of them, if anything really, but they love to spend time with her whenever they can.

    Occasionally my gf will ask them to look after her for an afternoon, or collect her from pre-school, but it's perhaps 3-4 times a year at most - and now whilst her father is busy fighting cancer, probably not at all for the foreseeable future.

    Some people also end up being parents to young children for something like 40 years - I know a lady who has a 21 year old daughter, and then younger children who are 10 & 6 - so she will have had it non stop for circa 35 years IF they move out!

    I can well see how people might want a rest from it, having been there and done it to the nth degree, so I would never expect either set of parents to have a big interest in them - the fact that they do, is great because they want to, and it's rewarding for all parties, but it's a nice bonus.

    If we need someone to babysit, we either pay our regular childminder, who iss very good, or occasionally we might ask family or friends. I would rather pay someone personally, as I feel more comfortable doing it that way than relying on someone's generosity.
    I appreciate this jacks up the cost of an evening out (We went to a gig last Friday in London which cost £60 for the childminder) but for me, that is the choice you make when you decided to have children.

    As an aside on the fact some people have children of vastly different ages, I also have two friends who were part of those family setups, ie they were mid to late teens when mum popped another one out, and they love their siblings dearly, but ended up bringing them up to some degree, and both of those people (females) have decided not to have children.
    And when asked, I think as they experienced it first hand, and almost felt like they had done it, they have made a conscious choice - could just be a coincidence of course, but struck me as a curious one.
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