Advice regarding poor customer service at Madison/Shimano

martin_garcia

First off all apologies for making this my first post but I am after some advice.

I bought through and had fitted at my local bike shop on my high end frame the following Dura-ace Di2 9150 rear derailleur, Dura-ace 11-30 11sp cassette, and Dura-ace 11sp chain on the 30/03/2017.
After covering 900m on i had lost power and saw that front derailleur had been ripped from my chain. I then proceeded to return back to my local shop and was told this was due to a chain failure, as the links that failed were not the 'joining link' and they had only ever worked on that link.
They proceeded to open a warranty claim for replacement frame, chain, front derailleur with Madison. Madison asked for components be sent to them which was done promptly. Within 3 days the bicycle was returned to my the local shop saying this was a frame failure. I had to then take my frame to another shop (my normal bike shop where frame had been custom made and normally serviced have it inspected and a letter written stating that as the bike had been serviced less than a month ago and their opinion the damage was caused by the chain splitting, locking in the front derailleur.
This was letter and the bike was then returned to Madison and a warranty claim was opened (I believe). We were then informed that this claim has been denied by Shimano as they believe it was due to faulty instillation of the chain.
They would like to have the chain sent back them in Japan so they can have their engineers inspect the chain.

At this point I not sure what to do I have ordered a new frame which is due to come in next 2 weeks but I am caught between two parties trying to blame each other.

Madison/Shimano have not given myself or local shop any evidence why they feel it is instillation error and have moved the goal posts several times in last 6-7 weeks and have not said why the inspection can't be done by Shimano Europe.

I am shocked at the customer service Shimano/Madison have provided, and have been unable to find a direct contact for Shimano Europe.

As a long time user of shimano products i am very close to never using their components again after this.

If anyone has some advice regarding this situation, or if anyone has contact details for Shimano Europe it would be much appreciated.

I am happy to answer any questions and can provide pictures if anyone is interested

Also to add insult to injury my insurance company have said they may not cover me as i'm only covered for accidental damage. (haven't opened a formal claim yet but they are aware

any help/advice would be much appreciated
Many Thanks

Martin

timothyw

I'm having difficulty understanding exactly what happened - was it:

the chain broke, and when it did so it snagged in the front derailleur, pulling it off and damaging the frame in the process?

Do you have any pictures so we can get a better idea?

I can understand it's a frustrating situation but I think it might be a big ask for someone to buy you a new frame - you might be able to get them to pay for a repair.

I mean, for the front derailleur to pull off the braze on (or otherwise damage the frame) you'd have to give a fair belt I would have thought?

ZMC888

This often happens because companies often brainwash themselves that they manufacture infallible products. They never see it from the consumers point of view were parts are sent all around the world and you're left without a bike for weeks and weeks despite having spent thousands of your hard-earned cash.

I had a mountain bike fork that had to go back to Taiwan and was only 2 months old, it came back 6 months later, by which time I'd bought a new fork.

The best thing to do is try to lean on your bike shop and see if they can't sort out something acceptable and maybe give you a last years frame to borrow or keep. Then have another chat when Madison/Shimano have decided who's fault it is.

fenix

Wow. Never seen a chain break and take the front mech with it ?

Chains do break. Are we talking 900 meters or 900 miles though ?

Rodrego Hernandez

Has to go back to the shop you bought it from. They are the people who your contract is with. If madison won't honour and warranty then it is up to the shop to take it up with them. Not you.

slowbike

Rodrego Hernandez wrote:

Has to go back to the shop you bought it from. They are the people who your contract is with. If madison won't honour and warranty then it is up to the shop to take it up with them. Not you.

exactly this...

Although I fear there may be a case of frame from one shop, gear from another - I'm not sure if there's a limit of liability with the shop that fitted the gear to the frame (from the other) to the value of the (failed) gear fitted - ie chain & front mech...

Rodrego Hernandez

The shop is just referring you to madison as a way of getting rid of you and moving the blame onto someone he knows full well will just fob you off. If the problem was caused by poor installation of the component, go to the person that installed it.

CiB

Deciphering the op, it seems that after 900 metres [why not yards, so we don't think it could be 900 miles? It's no different really] the chain snagged and pulled the FD away destroying the frame. Or is there another way of understanding "front derailleur had been ripped from my chain"? Not wanting to be harsh OP but given the vague description of the incident and the aftermath, maybe your LBS and Madison are also struggling to see what's really what.

Let's assume the above, that your chain ripped the FD away after less than a mile, and Madison are refusing to accept a faulty chain as the cause. First off my experience of Madison is that they moved heaven & earth to sort out my Di2 issues, so they're not a bunch of fly-by-night charlatans by any stretch. The people who hand-built your frame report that they serviced the frame and that it was perfect, so it can't be their fault. Surprise surprise. Maybe finding out what a 'service' entails would be a good start.

Reality is it's impossible to say given the evidence. It'd be easy to say the chain failed, but just as easy to suppose the frame wasn't as good as its maker claims and that was the root cause. Bottom line is that both parties have a vested interest in blaming the other and the only real recourse is to go to the small claims court against whoever you might have more chance of beating. Fwiw my money would be on the frame builder but only at 60-40 and mainly because Madison were so good to me. When both sides refuse to budge, recourse to law might be the answer. Probably end up costing more in money & stress than the new frame though.

Look at it realistically. Can you honestly say yourself what the actual cause was?

Bobbinogs

Yepp, I think it is going to be very hard to prove what actually happened in the aftermath of this one. There would be a lot of damage but was that caused by the failing or was the damage the initial trigger to the whole event? I would guess that even a large amount of money thrown at this and a very comprehensive/objective technical survey would still be inconclusive. A small claims court might be the way forward but a new frame won't cost the earth so it may be better for the OP to move on from this. Shop around, get a decent frameset, rebuild the bike with what can be salvaged and then ride it.

vinnymarsden

My experience of Madison, via an insurance claim is rather poor...the insurers appointed a specialist to oversee the claim, and to be fair, they did not skimp on replacement values etc, once parts/frame had been specified those items were ordered and I waited eagerly for them to be sent for me to build it up ( I am competent enough to build a bike, and as per the OPs problems, if you entrust it to the LBS, you have to be 10000% sure they know what they are doing....if you build it yourself, there is no ambiguity, its on you!!)
The one week promise became almost 6 weeks of failed deliveries of small inconsequential parts by Madison as Shimano's "official" distributors..the entire £3000 thing was held up, potentially until the end of May for a set of £20 brake cables that Madison said they couldn't get till 28/5!!
Don't get me wrong...there were communication issues a plenty with the appointed so called "specialists" but suffice to say, when I contacted them, and was informed of the reason for the totally unacceptable delay I got them to send everything minus the cables. On receipt of the box of goodies, on opening the frame it had a hole in the downtube!!
The culmination of a near 6 week wait was rather frustrating let me say.
On contacting the suppliers..their attitude was shall we say... less than enthusiastic, the end result being me losing my rag, and within 2 days everything returned and my insures paid me cash in full, I bought and built up a far nicer bike, and there is the crux of the post... if you buy it as separate parts, there is NO WAY any LBS want to put it together for you, they have made no money on supplying the components, and they will shoe horn the job in between other "booked in" jobs.
I am not for one minute saying all LBs's have that mentality, but I think we all know, the mindset of most is still stuck in the 80s..they look at EVERY customer as a "showboater" who will look at/try on etc then buy off the web..hence the customer service in some instances is simply not there.
To the OP...if you get sorted...genuinely...build your own..its easy with the right tools, and patience.

LimitedGarry

7 weeks? Dude. Like what does the law say about RMA in the UK?
Here in Czech Republic, the seller and the service/supplier/manufacturer are obligated to finish the RMA process within 30 days. In other words, no matter what is wrong with the product, after 30 days you MUST receive the repaired product, a replacement product, or a full refund. If the product doesn't make it back in time due to shipment issues, you can simply demand a refund. If the manufacturer believes you've caused the issue but fails to return the product within 30 days, it's still a refund for you.
There's absolutely no reason why you should care about who or what caused the issue. More than about the crap service of said companies, I'm actually surprised about such behaviour being within the bounds of the law.

vinnymarsden

Garry,

I think regardless of the law, here in the UK we are conditioned to expect mediocre service, and when someone just raises their game a little bit we go overboard with the effervescent compliments..despite them actually only doing what you pay them for!! Its rather like my bank the HSBC making a really big thing about having call centres back here in the UK!!! Surely that isn't something we should see as a bonus, after all we are Uk customers, but we have come to think that is a real plus point...you go to places like the USA and customer service/care actually is taken VERY seriously...they do university degree courses in it....and it shows, the entire hospitality industry is full of positive stories when in the USA...you come home to the UK and everything appears too much effort for staff at shops etc etc.
This is sadly, VERY well represented in the bike shop industry..we have a LBS who almost sneer at people who ride bikes with SRAM g/sets..hence another reason I maintain all my own kit now.
I can see BREXIT only making this aspect of our lives harder if i'm honest...if only i win the 90million tonight!!!! I'm gone...

Just listening to Audioslave/Soundgarden....CC...gone too soon!!!

jdee84

VinnyMarsden wrote:

Just listening to Audioslave/Soundgarden....CC...gone too soon!!!

Much too soon! One of the best vocalists of all time!

LimitedGarry

Well, that's actually interesting to hear. Here in Czech Republic, people will often demand services they're not really entitled to. And to please them, most service providers and retailers just do whatever they ask for.
But we've got different issues, mostly (but not just) with food in stores. For the same prices as in Germany or sometimes even higher, we get inferior products.
People here don't have anything to compare it to, as not many people will actually buy the same products abroad.
Worst of all, it took years to bring this to the attention of EU and even more years to actually make them care.

Bottom line, I think there's something to be mad about no matter where you live.

martin_garcia

quick update:

My local bike shop is going to claim on their insurance so I believe I will be sorted and now Shimano have agreed the chain can be examined in Holland and not Japan.

As for the first posters reply, Yes I do expect to be compensated for a new frame the frame could not be repaired as the front mech was ripped from the carbon frame after 900 meters (not miles) and about 3 min of use When the shop who built the bike examined the frame they in their opinion it looks like chain split causing it to jam and then normal pedal stroke ripped out. My Garmin data stated (Max watts 550 NP 150) this is after.

My main issue in this whole drama has been the constant moving of the goal posts by Madison/Shimano.

1) first they blamed the frame - when bike was returned to local shop (after 3 days) it didn't even appear to have been taking out of the packaging
2) Bike resent with letter after having frame inspected: open warranty claim with Shimano (?why wasn't claim opened before)
3) claim rejected: Shimano believe it was instillation error- note the joining link still intact and mechanic at local shop has stated this is only link he removed.
4) Shimano then want chain (integral evidence) sent to Japan for examination
5) local shop asks for Shimano proof it's installation error (at this time they say willing to come to arrangement with Shimano while chain is being inspected so I can close the matter)
6) Shimano/Madison refuses above no proof was supplied
7) At this time my local shop states they will claim on their liability insurance- have written a letter , Shimano now says chain can be inspected in Holland (question raised by local shop)- Why hasn't chain been inspected before hand it has now been 7 weeks!!!

You can see why i'm a bit disappointed in service I've had from Shimano
At the moment 3 road bikes in household all using shimano ranging from ultegra to dura-ace (seriously thinking of switching to SRAM)
Not being able to speak directly to Shimano I believe has not helped this situation

slowbike

Glad your LBS is sorting this out for you. Of course, this is what would be expected as the next step would be small claims court against your LBS - especially with 900 METERS (!!) of riding.

As for the argument between the LBS, Madison and Shimano - quite frankly it's none of your concern - your contract was/is with the LBS - any additional warranty provided by the distributor or manufacturer is in addition to your statuory rights.

Btw - go for KMC chain ... although it's probably made with the same machine ....

Rodrego Hernandez

Slowbike wrote:

Glad your LBS is sorting this out for you. Of course, this is what would be expected as the next step would be small claims court against your LBS - especially with 900 METERS (!!) of riding.

As for the argument between the LBS, Madison and Shimano - quite frankly it's none of your concern - your contract was/is with the LBS - any additional warranty provided by the distributor or manufacturer is in addition to your statuory rights.

Btw - go for KMC chain ... although it's probably made with the same machine ....

Shimano have historically had chain problems so this should not come as a surprise. But, as you have been told, it is between you and the shop that fitted the chain. If it can be proven that damage was caused due to a defect in material or installation, you should get restitution by whoever is accountable.

LimitedGarry

Situations in which a brand new chain snaps are extremely rare.

Would be funny to see the guy in Holland - Opens up the package and goes to send an email comfirming to Shimano Japan the chain is indeed broken.
That said, being a brand new chain, I can see why Shimano would be interesting in a close inspection. Might give them an insight into what is wrong with it.

From the perspective of a customer, I say you should have had a refund or a new bike weeks ago.
From the perspective of the companies, I can see why Shimano (being a worldwide company) would not want to automatically respond positively to some shop claiming their chain broke an expensive carbon frame and they should now pay for it. Likely had their lawyers up in arms on this one, which is IMHO why they wanted it to be sent into Japan - probably treated the case as some idiot thinking Shimano is going buy him a new bike after he broke it, so they didn't bother applying common sense.

Grill

Slowbike wrote:

Btw - go for KMC chain ... although it's probably made with the same machine ....

Indeed, KMC make Shimano chains, but the Dura Ace chain is faster than anything KMC brand as their own.

Without seeing pictures and knowing exactly what happened, there really is no way of knowing where the fault lies. My gut tells my the shop didn't install/test correctly as such a quick failure is far more likely to be the result of improper installation than anything. The way it took the front mech really doesn't make sense.

I ran a shop for a long time and can say that they're the ones who should be your first and last point of contact. The onus is on them to sort it out and the excuses you were getting, as well as the way they folded so easily on compensation, paint a pretty obvious picture.

vinnymarsden

I agree 100% with Grill, if you entrust the LBS to do it,and within less than a km the thing blows up..its THEIR fault, just goes to validate my point...just because you let them do it...it doesn't mean they are any good.
Build your own, you take WAY WAY more care, based on the fact if anything goes wrong..it's your wallet that takes a beating, hence the old adage could never be more true... measure 3 times before you cut once!!
The most twitchy moment is cutting the fork!!!

dabber

VinnyMarsden wrote:

I agree 100% with Grill, if you entrust the LBS to do it,and within less than a km the thing blows up..its THEIR fault, just goes to validate my point...just because you let them do it...it doesn't mean they are any good.
Build your own, you take WAY WAY more care, based on the fact if anything goes wrong..it's your wallet that takes a beating, hence the old adage could never be more true... measure 3 times before you cut once!!
The most twitchy moment is cutting the fork!!!

Or the Integrated Seat Post ... that certainly made me nervous :shock:

martin_garcia

Last update I hope

Chain was sent to Holland and Shimano Europe have contacted my local bike shop to say they accept all liability and this appeared to have been a product failure.

I'm happy that this situation finally appears to have reached a conclusion. The only thing I have to say is that I am annoyed at the service my local shop and in turn myself received from Madison/Shimano and the length of time it took to have Shimano actually look at the chain. Once Shimano actually looked at the chain it has gone quickly but it took the local bike shops insurance company writing a letter to Shimano/Madison to get this done.

I have written to Shimano via social media to let them know this -this issue should not have taken 8 weeks to sort out

Martin

ZMC888

I've never liked Shimano or KMC chains I hate the funny rivet on shimano chains and I can never undo the KMC link by the road side by hand.

I much prefer SRAM chains. I heard they have better cross compliance and I just prefer the construction. Never had a problem running SRAM chains when the rest of the system is Shimano.

My opinion is not universally agreed with!

Bobbinogs

KMC chains all day for me. I cannot get the ML to undo at the roadside but have never needed to! I have a chain tool for chain repairs, although been fortunate only to ever need it for other people who were riding with Shimano chains.

OP, glad to hear this one has been resolved. Does show the level of liability that companies have assumed nowadays when effectively a £20 chain purchase has ended up with Shimano having to cover an expensive frame and component replacement. I guess in the old days they would have just sent a replacement chain and one would have had to have been grateful with that...but in the end we all pay for a greater corporate liability/image consciousness.

dazz_ni45

Had a recent warranty claim with Shimano/Madison the service from Madison and in particular their warranty manager was very poor and he was downright rude. I told him I would be taking up directly with Shimano directly and his response was "good luck" as it would just be referred back to Madison so there was little I could do.

Although my original claim was settled and eventually paid (I waived a personal injury claim if they agreed to compensate me for damage to the bike and clothing), the bike (or more accurately parts fitted to the bike) was returned to be by Madison damaged. When I contacted their warranty manager, his response was that he had inspected and packed the bike himself and it wasn't damaged then so therefore it wasn't their problem and that I was a liar. I was also accused of being petty considering Shimano had settled the original claim and I shouldn't be making an issue of it, but it was a further £140 I was out of pocket

chris_bass

i still cant get my head round how a broken chain ripped the front mech off and wrote off the entire frame?

First.Aspect

Chris Bass wrote:

i still cant get my head round how a broken chain ripped the front mech off and wrote off the entire frame?

If a link is slightly open and facing forward, the cage will act like a wedge, until it hits the pin whereupon, tits and bums.

You know my views on Madison. Several comments on here mirror my recent experience of delays, with the exception of anyone in the wheel building business sticking up for them and calling us a "herd". Their warrantee behaviour is troubling also. Aside from anything else, they should have immediately referred you to the shop, since they don't have any direct relationship with you.