Overtaking on the right to get to the front at lights

alan_sherman

I was amazed at the three close shaves I saw today on the New Kings Road where roadies overtake on the right to get to the front at traffic lights. The danger is that the lights change and the vehicle (an artic in two of these cases) pulls away when the lights go green whilst the overtaker is in the blind spot - or trying to cut in around the central island. Two of these were at the lights before the right turn to the embankment.

Are there any stats on these collisions? It is quite similar to the left hook danger.

Be careful out there, waiting for a couple of seconds is better than wasting time in hospital (or worse).

N0bodyOfTheGoat

There's one road I always overtake standing traffic at red lights on the right, even though there is a cycle lane down the left, simply because I turn right at that crossroads junction where the lights are. As I approach the junction, I do try and anticipate the lights going green and be ready to drop into the queuing traffic.

cookeeemonster

Don't think it's a danger as long as the overtaker has his/her eyes open and are willing to wait and slip back into the traffic when safe if the lights do change

asprilla

I don't think it's any more dangerous than the same situation on the left. At least drivers are more likely to check their right mirror.

rick_chasey

I do this a lot.

I naturally assume they haven't seen me, but it's very rare there isn't a bailout option on the right hand side.

tgotb

Often the safer option. On the left, the pavement traps you within a door width of the cars, so it's almost impossible to eliminate totally the risk of being doored. On the right, you can leave a lot more space, and just move into a gap between cars whenever there's oncoming traffic (which you can see clearly because it's in front of you).

My policy is never to overtake or ride alongside moving vehicles. If a vehicle is in front of you, it can't get you. If it's behind you, it should be able to see you. If it's overtaking, it will have been able to see you before it started the manoeuvre, so it knows you're there (but adjust your speed if required, to make sure it completes the overtaking manoeuvre quickly, before the driver forgets). If you overtake a stationary vehicle, it may not know you're there, but it can't get you because it's not moving. All these scenarios are fairly safe because the vehicles around you either know you're there, or can't get you if they don't.

If you allow yourself to get into a situation where you're overtaking a moving vehicle, all bets are off. It can now get you, but it may not know you're there. That applies whether you're overtaking it on the left or the right. If you're passing a row of stationary vehicles, keep a good look ahead so you know when things are going to start moving. At this point, it's always safer to move into a gap behind one vehicle, and ahead of another. The vehicle ahead can't get you, and the vehicle behind knows you are there.

alan_sherman

The issue is a stationary vehicle that is about to move, when you are between it and a curb / lamppost / fence.

Ben6899

alan sherman wrote:

The issue is a stationary vehicle that is about to move, when you are between it and a curb / lamppost / fence.

Wait. Are we on the left or on the right? Because on the New King's Road, if I'm overtaking on the right then either kerb is ~3.5m away. I.e I'm in the middle of the road.

hopkinb

alan sherman wrote:

The issue is a stationary vehicle that is about to move, when you are between it and a curb / lamppost / fence.

Not so much chance of that if you're on the right though, is there?

tgotb

alan sherman wrote:

The issue is a stationary vehicle that is about to move, when you are between it and a curb / lamppost / fence.

The answer to that is to avoid being alongside stationary vehicles that are about to move. It's pretty straightforward: Look ahead, and pull into a gap in good time before the vehicles start moving. If the traffic is moving you need to be part of it, not next to it.

Many times every day I stop in a gap between two vehicles only to see another cyclist pass me, and end up alongside the vehicle in front as it starts to move away. It doesn't even do them any good; I'll normally overtake them a couple of seconds after the vehicle they were trying to pass.

tgotb

Ben6899 wrote:

Wait. Are we on the left or on the right? Because on the New King's Road, if I'm overtaking on the right then either kerb is ~3.5m away. I.e I'm in the middle of the road.

There are a few places on the NKR where you could conceivable get yourself trapped between a vehicle on your left and a traffic island on your right; maybe that's what he has in mind?

Still easy to avoid though...

alan_sherman

That is exactly what I was talking about.
Here: https://goo.gl/maps/89pWmjHfakk

or here: https://goo.gl/maps/nH3SPtVRZV92

Commuters piling up the right when the lights change, Cars pull off and the gap disappears. Ouch.

The first is the most common because people want to get in the right lane to go down the embankment

Pufftmw

It is far safer to overtake on the right IMHO. Cars are more likely to see you in their mirrors, they are more likely to expect things on their right (think overtaking motorbikes), cars won't turn right across oncoming flowing traffic and you get a better view of the road.

Obviously you need to have speed in your favour but if you can't judge your over (or under) take to get in front of a vehicle before you are squeezed out, then you shouldn't have been making the move anyway.

mattsaw

alan sherman wrote:

That is exactly what I was talking about.
Here: https://goo.gl/maps/89pWmjHfakk

or here: https://goo.gl/maps/nH3SPtVRZV92

Commuters piling up the right when the lights change, Cars pull off and the gap disappears. Ouch.

The first is the most common because people want to get in the right lane to go down the embankment

I'm not really sure I see the issue?

You can fairly easily see the lights changing as you're filtering.

Once you see them start to change, your speed should give you more than enough time to merge in with the stationary traffic to your left before it starts to move off - if you haven't already made it into the ASL.

elbowloh

Many cycle training courses recommend you overtake standing traffic on the right, the TFL provided cycle training course that our company does also recommends this.

MrSweary

TGOTB wrote:

My policy is never to overtake or ride alongside moving vehicles. If a vehicle is in front of you, it can't get you. If it's behind you, it should be able to see you. If it's overtaking, it will have been able to see you before it started the manoeuvre, so it knows you're there (but adjust your speed if required, to make sure it completes the overtaking manoeuvre quickly, before the driver forgets). If you overtake a stationary vehicle, it may not know you're there, but it can't get you because it's not moving. All these scenarios are fairly safe because the vehicles around you either know you're there, or can't get you if they don't.

This really.

Anyway the first section of my ride out of Beckenham and along to Clockhouse and Penge is frequently in slow moving, stop start traffic - a crawling traffic jam. The road isn't super wide. The problem is that most cars are already nearly on the centre line which means if you blindly stick to filtering on the right you are in the path of oncoming traffic or at least that is where your escape route is. At this point it is actually generally safer to filter on the left, you have more space, you can bail to the pavement if anything goes really wrong and people opening doors are vanishingly rare. If something does go south you won't be thrown into the path of a moving car. Very specific example but goes to show that blindly sticking to a rule isn't always the best.

Certainly on that part of road I feel much less safe on the right. If people do suddenly pull right it is likely to be without indicating (because who indicates these days, right?!) and it is likely to be sudden precisely because they are trying to fit between a small gap in oncoming traffic (because who waits these days, right?!). Also, my experience of the jams going down CP Park Hill and through Penge / Clockhouse is that people have a habit of getting frustrated and doing sudden u-turns. Not great if you're on the right.

As for people looking in their mirrors - one of the reasons i run a Trace year round.

cruff

Overtaking on the right of slower moving/stationary traffic is surely the only sensible option in a large number of cases? As a driver as well as a cyclist, I'm not expecting people to undertake me, and am often shocked to look in my left mirror and see cyclists come tooling up inside me when the chances of some prat pulling into or out of a side road and SMIDSYing you are far higher than someone pulling across you to turn right or turning into a side road from the opposite carriageway without looking. Appreciate what you're saying in this instance regarding it being a slightly different setup, but being familiar with that junction myself (and the NKR in general) after commuting through there for months, it's pretty much a free for all in my experience anyway - RLJ, peds, lorries, buses, drivers turn it into a clusterf*ck at the best of times. I don't think it's so much an issue of not filtering on the right there, more 'keep your f***ing wits about you whenever you approach it'. Needs redesigning, IMHO - though not as bad as getting onto the LRR going South over Putney Bridge...

alan_sherman

It really comes down to common sense. My point wasn't about over taking in general, it was about getting to the front of a queue at traffic lights. If the lights have been red for a while then there is a fair chance they could change red to green and you could be in a dangerous position. It reminds me of the police motorcycle training thing I did, they suggested filtering to the space behind the first car. Their reason was to avoid the light change issue, but also by staying behind the front car you don't feel the need to ride the clutch and zoom off into the path of amber / red gamblers. Less stress, negligible impact on travel time.

vermin

MrSweary wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

My policy is never to overtake or ride alongside moving vehicles. If a vehicle is in front of you, it can't get you. If it's behind you, it should be able to see you. If it's overtaking, it will have been able to see you before it started the manoeuvre, so it knows you're there (but adjust your speed if required, to make sure it completes the overtaking manoeuvre quickly, before the driver forgets). If you overtake a stationary vehicle, it may not know you're there, but it can't get you because it's not moving. All these scenarios are fairly safe because the vehicles around you either know you're there, or can't get you if they don't.

This really.

Not quite, IME. I have endured weekly physio sessions on my neck since I was taken out whilst overtaking stationary traffic in April last year. Two lane road (one each way); one lane blocked by road works, with temporary traffic light controlling traffic. I was about 200m from the roadworks, cars stationary in my lane. Oncoming lane completely clear, nothing moving at all. I took the right to overtake stationary line of cars. Probably passed about 10-15 cars. Suddenly, without any warning or signal, the next car I was about to overtake lurched out of line, directly into my path (driver took a split-second decision to turn right, into a side road). I went straight over the bonnet/windscreen and bounced down the road on my head.

So, in short, drivers can always do unexpected things, even when they are stationary in long queues of traffic.

Nellyspania

vermin wrote:

MrSweary wrote:

TGOTB wrote:

My policy is never to overtake or ride alongside moving vehicles. If a vehicle is in front of you, it can't get you. If it's behind you, it should be able to see you. If it's overtaking, it will have been able to see you before it started the manoeuvre, so it knows you're there (but adjust your speed if required, to make sure it completes the overtaking manoeuvre quickly, before the driver forgets). If you overtake a stationary vehicle, it may not know you're there, but it can't get you because it's not moving. All these scenarios are fairly safe because the vehicles around you either know you're there, or can't get you if they don't.

This really.

Not quite, IME. I have endured weekly physio sessions on my neck since I was taken out whilst overtaking stationary traffic in April last year. Two lane road (one each way); one lane blocked by road works, with temporary traffic light controlling traffic. I was about 200m from the roadworks, cars stationary in my lane. Oncoming lane completely clear, nothing moving at all. I took the right to overtake stationary line of cars. Probably passed about 10-15 cars. Suddenly, without any warning or signal, the next car I was about to overtake lurched out of line, directly into my path (driver took a split-second decision to turn right, into a side road). I went straight over the bonnet/windscreen and bounced down the road on my head.

So, in short, drivers can always do unexpected things, even when they are stationary in long queues of traffic.

I remember once passing a long line of stationary cars when a ****head in a Focus saw me in his door mirror, reversed right up to the car in front and then pulled 2 feet over the white line to block me. I just rode slowly round somehow not reacting, which hopefully made him look a bit of a prat.

onionmk

I do this all the time. Although only when the vehicles on my right are either stood still or travelling really slowly. I always make sure I'm moving forward faster than they are so as not to get caught up in a blind spot. 9/10 times this means getting out of the saddle and putting power down. The moment I see the traffic ahead start to speed up I'll indicate and cut across a car to get back on the left hand side.

Often it's safer than sitting on the left especially if theres an obstacle ahead. Drivers tend to give more room to their right anyway as we're accustomed to seeing cars approach from that side.

weezyswiss

Stationary traffic I try and always overtake on the right. I'll only ever filter up the left if there is lots of space, and I get stuck on the inside.

Either way, I'll reduce speed. Inside is snails pace, outside if the queue is to lights it's a slow cruise / roll in, but if it is stationary jam then speed is higher with me well out into the opposite lane, filtering in when oncoming traffic.

roger_merriman

I favour the right vs left overtake, though I'm no fan of close filtering where a vehicle may move off!

Does depend on the road on some the traffic hugs the centre line so makes sense to go left, and so on