Nutrition for 70 miles

pblakeney

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Garry H wrote:

Porridge for breakfast. Then stop half way for a fish supper and a can of shandy . No need for the experience to be purgatory.

Have you considered a job in marketing, for Rapha or someone similar?

He'd fail.
Rapha ride videos always look like purgatory.

pblakeney

apreading wrote:

ChippyK wrote:

eat when you're hungry.

Bad advice. Eat BEFORE you are hungry.

That's working for me.
My weight is increasing an amazing rate.

DavidJB

Keith57 wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Keith57 wrote:

If your Fat Adapted you can ride on full power all day without snaking. If you're carb addicted then you'll need to snack on unhealthy sugary carbs all day, and possibly look forward to Type 2 diabetes later on in life

:roll:

No need to be rude, I guess that's the Internet for you. :shock:

I rode a 200km ride over Christmas, my first ride for the Festive 500, full speed, no sugary carbs at all. My first try (an experiment) at no fuel on the ride after a month or so of fat adaption. I was quite amazed. Like all carb addicted riders in the past, I was totally used to eating constantly. This was very different, full power and no bonking at all. Worth trying out and doing some research for all the weekend warriors out there!! I've now gone from around 11.5st to very low 10st and my power to weight ratio and speed up climbs has improved significantly a very happy bike rider. Save's a bit a cash on bars and gells too

Good for you. What works for you won't work for a beginner (assuming OP is relatively new). I can ride up to 4.5 hours with no food on the bike in a steady zone 2 session but it took me years to get there. Plus not eating on the bike will not lead to weight loss that requires you to eat well all the time. Your post might OP think he's crap for eating on the bike when it's simply not the case.

It also depends on your power output...more power = more energy = food needed faster. I wouldn't go racing without any food...I also wouldn't do 125 miles without food because unless you're a genetic mutant you'll run out of glycogen halfway round and it will affect your performance. Will you notice the drop off in performance just bimbling about (sorry "full speed")? Probably not if you're well trained, but science is science.

My heart rate increases 10 BPM for the same watts after 4 hours of not eating because my body is working harder to burn fat for fuel, and that means it's focused less on performing well.

Your comment is complete non-sense, you may have convinced yourself you can ride for long distances sans eating without an affect on your performance but it's simply not true. So crack on and enjoy but I'd advise OP to simply ignore your post.

The roll eyes comment was more about your stupid diabetes comment.

vrsmatt

Keith57 wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Keith57 wrote:

If your Fat Adapted you can ride on full power all day without snaking. If you're carb addicted then you'll need to snack on unhealthy sugary carbs all day, and possibly look forward to Type 2 diabetes later on in life

:roll:

No need to be rude, I guess that's the Internet for you. :shock:

I rode a 200km ride over Christmas, my first ride for the Festive 500, full speed, no sugary carbs at all. My first try (an experiment) at no fuel on the ride after a month or so of fat adaption. I was quite amazed. Like all carb addicted riders in the past, I was totally used to eating constantly. This was very different, full power and no bonking at all. Worth trying out and doing some research for all the weekend warriors out there!! I've now gone from around 11.5st to very low 10st and my power to weight ratio and speed up climbs has improved significantly a very happy bike rider. Save's a bit a cash on bars and gels too

Hilarious post

You say gels, sugary things will give you diabetes (LOL) and elsewhere advocate a high fat diet (HFLC) which CAN lead to diabetes. You don't know much about diabetes do you.....

No doubt you can train yourself to burn fat more efficiently and not rely AS MUCH on carbs but once you get down to a low body fat its pretty hard to ride from fat stores you don't have, you end up metabolising fat from around the organs which is dangerous.

Once I see the Sky train in the TDF going full gas all day after having a big fry up and not taking any musette's I may change my mind, but maybe not.

keef66

It is interesting to see the scientific debate around diet, obesity and type 2 diabetes changing. Overconsumption of carbohydrate is now just as much a villain in the obesity epidemic as fat.

A couple of UK hospitals have had success with groups of type 2 diabetics on a low carb / higher fat & protein diet. They've lost weight, kept it off, and reduced or eliminated their dependence on medication. I've read accounts by individuals who have done the same. One comment that stuck in my mind was 'why are diabetics encouraged to eat carbohydrate when it's the one thing they are not equipped to deal with?'

I'm certainly more aware of how much my diet is based on carbs, a lot of it with a high GI, and I'm trying to reduce it and introduce more fat and protein.

I'll still be stuffing my face with fig rolls and jelly babies on a long bike ride...

keef66

"you end up metabolising fat from around the organs which is dangerous"

What's dangerous about it? We're told that (excess) visceral fat is more dangerous than the more visible subcutaneous kind. The so called TOFI - thin on the outside, fat on the inside - people. They think they are fit but they are heading for fatty liver and cardiovascular disease.

I'd have thought that metabolising visceral fat is a good thing. Michael Mosely got rid of quite a lot of his when he did the fasting documentary that led to the 5:2 diet. I'm hoping I'm doing the same

The Rookie

I can't do that distance (at a pace I'd choose to go at - circa 4h riding) without a mid ride top up.

I'd have an energy gel handy as they are great if you bonk and need to get energy fast, but I try not to actually use it, top up in whatever way you see fit, I quite like a combined protein and energy bar as the protein helps keep muscles feeling fresh (to a certain extent), but as mentioned you will have food stops to use and abuse, for me a small snack at about 25 and 50 miles would do it easily.

I'll steer clear of the scientific willy waving debate as I'm not a nutritionist.

pblakeney

I like the idea that a recreational cyclist should base their nutrition on that of TdF riders.

keef66

The Rookie wrote:

I'll steer clear of the scientific willy waving debate as I'm not a nutritionist.

Oh yes you are!

"Dietitians and nutritionists are both concerned with the use of diet and nutrition to maintaining good health and prevent or treat health conditions. Registered Dietitians must meet certain educational and training qualifications but the term "nutrition" does not have any official legal status — one does not need any specific credentials before calling oneself a nutritionist"

The Rookie

Case proven on the WW....... :-)

griffsters

VRSMatt wrote:

Keith57 wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Keith57 wrote:

If your Fat Adapted you can ride on full power all day without snaking. If you're carb addicted then you'll need to snack on unhealthy sugary carbs all day, and possibly look forward to Type 2 diabetes later on in life

:roll:

No need to be rude, I guess that's the Internet for you. :shock:

I rode a 200km ride over Christmas, my first ride for the Festive 500, full speed, no sugary carbs at all. My first try (an experiment) at no fuel on the ride after a month or so of fat adaption. I was quite amazed. Like all carb addicted riders in the past, I was totally used to eating constantly. This was very different, full power and no bonking at all. Worth trying out and doing some research for all the weekend warriors out there!! I've now gone from around 11.5st to very low 10st and my power to weight ratio and speed up climbs has improved significantly a very happy bike rider. Save's a bit a cash on bars and gels too

Hilarious post

You say gels, sugary things will give you diabetes (LOL) and elsewhere advocate a high fat diet (HFLC) which CAN lead to diabetes. You don't know much about diabetes do you.....

No doubt you can train yourself to burn fat more efficiently and not rely AS MUCH on carbs but once you get down to a low body fat its pretty hard to ride from fat stores you don't have, you end up metabolising fat from around the organs which is dangerous.

Once I see the Sky train in the TDF going full gas all day after having a big fry up and not taking any musette's I may change my mind, but maybe not.

Sounds like you might know what you are talking about. Can you explain how a HFLC diet causes type 2 diabetes please? Is it to do with how fat increases blood sugar levels?

I agree we don't want to be using a really scarce resource such as fat for energy do we, that would be madness!

bristolpete

I did 96 miles yesterday. Very warm day by 9am. Lovely on the bike.

Breakfast was microwave egg fried rice x 1 bag and 4 biscuits, 2 x coffee at 6.30am. On the road at 7.

On the hour every hour I ate in this order

1 x banana

1 x banana

1/2 an SIS energy bar

1/2 an SIS energy bar

and over the next 2 hours every 30 mins a caffine based energy gel.

I also had carbs in water form in 2 x bottle and set my garmin to beep every 20 mins and got through 6 bottles of water ( 4 just water).

Smashed it. Felt great pulling into my front door even after hitting some unexpected hills in East Devon and feel fine today. Next time I would take another SIS energy bar or banana.

vrsmatt

Griffsters wrote:

VRSMatt wrote:

Keith57 wrote:

DavidJB wrote:

Keith57 wrote:

If your Fat Adapted you can ride on full power all day without snaking. If you're carb addicted then you'll need to snack on unhealthy sugary carbs all day, and possibly look forward to Type 2 diabetes later on in life

:roll:

No need to be rude, I guess that's the Internet for you. :shock:

I rode a 200km ride over Christmas, my first ride for the Festive 500, full speed, no sugary carbs at all. My first try (an experiment) at no fuel on the ride after a month or so of fat adaption. I was quite amazed. Like all carb addicted riders in the past, I was totally used to eating constantly. This was very different, full power and no bonking at all. Worth trying out and doing some research for all the weekend warriors out there!! I've now gone from around 11.5st to very low 10st and my power to weight ratio and speed up climbs has improved significantly a very happy bike rider. Save's a bit a cash on bars and gels too

Hilarious post

You say gels, sugary things will give you diabetes (LOL) and elsewhere advocate a high fat diet (HFLC) which CAN lead to diabetes. You don't know much about diabetes do you.....

No doubt you can train yourself to burn fat more efficiently and not rely AS MUCH on carbs but once you get down to a low body fat its pretty hard to ride from fat stores you don't have, you end up metabolising fat from around the organs which is dangerous.

Once I see the Sky train in the TDF going full gas all day after having a big fry up and not taking any musette's I may change my mind, but maybe not.

Sounds like you might know what you are talking about. Can you explain how a HFLC diet causes type 2 diabetes please? Is it to do with how fat increases blood sugar levels?

I agree we don't want to be using a really scarce resource such as fat for energy do we, that would be madness!

https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/f ... -diabetes/

griffsters

Ahh yes, good old internet quackery. The founder of that site is a vegan who has an agenda against eating animal products, he isn't going to highlight the plethora of contrary evidence to his vegan promotion. He doesn't want you to eat meat.

I'll give you an alternative one - https://www.dietdoctor.com/diabetes

Personally I think it makes sense to control your blood sugar according to your genetics, exercise levels, medical history and lifestyle. Everyone is different but that means monitoring and limiting carbs and sugar intake IMHO - more and more evidence points to this being the case.

vrsmatt

Griffsters wrote:

Ahh yes, good old internet quackery. The founder of that site is a vegan who has an agenda against eating animal products, he isn't going to highlight the plethora of contrary evidence to his vegan promotion. He doesn't want you to eat meat.

I'll give you an alternative one - https://www.dietdoctor.com/diabetes

Personally I think it makes sense to control your blood sugar according to your genetics, exercise levels, medical history and lifestyle. Everyone is different but that means monitoring and limiting carbs and sugar intake IMHO - more and more evidence points to this being the case.

Thats a commercial Diet site pushing LCHF :roll:

I'll leave this also

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/08August/Pa ... betes.aspx

keef66

VRSMatt wrote:

https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/f ... -diabetes/

For something called nutrition facts that seems to be almost entirely devoid of them. Opinion based internet bollocks at it's best.
The LCHF diet link seems more credible. Anyone with a blood sugar monitor and a desire to stab themselves repeatedly would be able to demonstrate that a meal based on massive amounts of simple carbs will cause a rapid spike in blood sugar while a predominantly protein / fat / complex carb meal won't.

I have an opinion I'd like to share.

Fat is not the cause of type 2 diabetes. Nor is carbohydrate. We've been eating both for thousands of years. The very recent type 2 diabetes epidemic is being caused by massive overconsumption.

The interesting (or terrifying) thing to ponder is why. What makes somebody overeat to the extent they seriously compromise their health. Diabetes isn't trivial; people are going blind and losing limbs FFS. The burden on health systems around the world is massive and increasing, yet type 2 diabetes is largely preventable.

I'm currently fascinated by the very complex relationship between what we eat and drink and the microbes that live in and on us.

If I was ever diagnosed type 2 I think I'd be looking at reducing carbs, especially those with a high GI, and upping protein and fats to compensate. And seeking out some choice, unpasteurised French cheeses.

vrsmatt

keef66 wrote:

And seeking out some choice, unpasteurised French cheeses.

I'd probably go and look at the research I posted later on, to see what high fat does. My mother has was diagnosed Type 2 last year and she is neither overweight, or eats much sugar/processed food etc, but does IMO have a fatty diet so I out her diagnosis down to fat. She has addressed this and her recent results are encouraging, in fact she eats more carbs and sugar now than previously.

I agree everyone is individual but i think my comments were aimed at the person who said that using gels and sugary foods on a ride would cause Type 2 then recommended a high fat solution instead, shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what diabetes is.

I'd go with you 100% on the cheese

pblakeney

All very interesting. Maybe.
But not in the least relevant to the OP.

griffsters

VRSMatt wrote:

Griffsters wrote:

Ahh yes, good old internet quackery. The founder of that site is a vegan who has an agenda against eating animal products, he isn't going to highlight the plethora of contrary evidence to his vegan promotion. He doesn't want you to eat meat.

I'll give you an alternative one - https://www.dietdoctor.com/diabetes

Personally I think it makes sense to control your blood sugar according to your genetics, exercise levels, medical history and lifestyle. Everyone is different but that means monitoring and limiting carbs and sugar intake IMHO - more and more evidence points to this being the case.

Thats a commercial Diet site pushing LCHF :roll:

I'll leave this also

http://www.nhs.uk/news/2011/08August/Pa ... betes.aspx

It does push LCHF - for good reason.

Its a topic where everyone fights their own corner quite vociferously. Interesting stuff for sure, and worth reading up on how we got to where we are with dietary advice by reading the story of the now discredited Ancel Keys study and the subsequent demonisation of fat. That will lead to further investigation and reading.

Now..back on topic.

griffsters

keef66 wrote:

VRSMatt wrote:

https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/f ... -diabetes/

The interesting (or terrifying) thing to ponder is why. What makes somebody overeat to the extent they seriously compromise their health. Diabetes isn't trivial; people are going blind and losing limbs FFS. The burden on health systems around the world is massive and increasing, yet type 2 diabetes is largely preventable.

If I was ever diagnosed type 2 I think I'd be looking at reducing carbs, especially those with a high GI, and upping protein and fats to compensate. And seeking out some choice, unpasteurised French cheeses.

Trying hard not to take this thread off topic, but ... One of the books i've read (about sugar IIRC) went through the process of how insulin blocks the hormone responsible for hunger management (in v.simple terms). Constant high levels of insulin in the bloodstream affects our inbuilt mechanism that stops us eating. Together with how the brain interprets sugar as pleasure its a very, very toxic mix.

mrfpb

keef66 wrote:

VRSMatt wrote:

https://nutritionfacts.org/2016/11/17/f ... -diabetes/

For something called nutrition facts that seems to be almost entirely devoid of them. Opinion based internet **** at it's best.
The LCHF diet link seems more credible. Anyone with a blood sugar monitor and a desire to stab themselves repeatedly would be able to demonstrate that a meal based on massive amounts of simple carbs will cause a rapid spike in blood sugar while a predominantly protein / fat / complex carb meal won't.

I have an opinion I'd like to share.

Fat is not the cause of type 2 diabetes. Nor is carbohydrate. We've been eating both for thousands of years. The very recent type 2 diabetes epidemic is being caused by massive overconsumption.

The interesting (or terrifying) thing to ponder is why. What makes somebody overeat to the extent they seriously compromise their health. Diabetes isn't trivial; people are going blind and losing limbs FFS. The burden on health systems around the world is massive and increasing, yet type 2 diabetes is largely preventable.

I'm currently fascinated by the very complex relationship between what we eat and drink and the microbes that live in and on us.

If I was ever diagnosed type 2 I think I'd be looking at reducing carbs, especially those with a high GI, and upping protein and fats to compensate. And seeking out some choice, unpasteurised French cheeses.

The human brain is wired to overeat in times of plenty, in order to sustain the body through scarce times. Before the second world war this wasn't an issue (except for the very well off). Since the end of rationing post WWII and the development of large scale, high yield farming, the West has for the first time been in a postion where even the lowest socio-ecoonmic groups have access to more calories than they need every day. Add to this a move from labour intensive jobs to sedentary jobs, the calories in/calories out equation has shifted considerably across the developed world.

keef66

mrfpb wrote:

The human brain is wired to overeat in times of plenty, in order to sustain the body through scarce times. Before the second world war this wasn't an issue (except for the very well off). Since the end of rationing post WWII and the development of large scale, high yield farming, the West has for the first time been in a postion where even the lowest socio-ecoonmic groups have access to more calories than they need every day. Add to this a move from labour intensive jobs to sedentary jobs, the calories in/calories out equation has shifted considerably across the developed world.

My brain is certainly hard wired to overeat when food is freely available, especially sweet things. It's definitely something to do with the reward centres in the brain. I should probably never try any Class A drugs, I find Haribo irresistible. And I'm always amazed too by how efficiently my body lays down the extra calories as fat. The only way I've found I can keep my weight in check is with intermittent fasting, and even then it's a lot harder to lose weight than gain it. Makes evolutionary sense to me. And commercial sense to my dentist.

Some of the most alarming obesity / type 2 statistics are coming from places which have only relatively recently had access to more calories than is good for them. The wealthier parts of the Middle East, and quite a few of the Pacific island nations for instance. This also suggests there may be a strong genetic component to the predisposition of some populations to obesity / type 2.

It is very much like watching a car crash. We know it's going to happen but we're powerless to stop it. Nobel Prize for anyone coming up with a solution...

mrfpb

keef66 wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

The human brain is wired to overeat in times of plenty, in order to sustain the body through scarce times. Before the second world war this wasn't an issue (except for the very well off). Since the end of rationing post WWII and the development of large scale, high yield farming, the West has for the first time been in a postion where even the lowest socio-ecoonmic groups have access to more calories than they need every day. Add to this a move from labour intensive jobs to sedentary jobs, the calories in/calories out equation has shifted considerably across the developed world.

My brain is certainly hard wired to overeat when food is freely available, especially sweet things. It's definitely something to do with the reward centres in the brain. I should probably never try any Class A drugs, I find Haribo irresistible. And I'm always amazed too by how efficiently my body lays down the extra calories as fat. The only way I've found I can keep my weight in check is with intermittent fasting, and even then it's a lot harder to lose weight than gain it. Makes evolutionary sense to me. And commercial sense to my dentist.

Some of the most alarming obesity / type 2 statistics are coming from places which have only relatively recently had access to more calories than is good for them. The wealthier parts of the Middle East, and quite a few of the Pacific island nations for instance. This also suggests there may be a strong genetic component to the predisposition of some populations to obesity / type 2.

It is very much like watching a car crash. We know it's going to happen but we're powerless to stop it. Nobel Prize for anyone coming up with a solution...

I'm also trying to follow an IF diet. I found in the early days that once I was reminded what hunger actually felt like, my appetite dropped. So I was no longer thinking I was hungry at times when I just was being triggered by the sight or smell of food to want it. I'm still finding it hard not to pig out on crisps and chocolate while watching TV after the kids go to bed.

keef66

Fast days are generally OK because I'm at work with things to occupy me, and when I do get to eat in the evening I then feel full enough not to snack.

Normal days are the dangerous ones, especially at work when there's cake and biscuits, or worse confectionery around. I've demonstrated it is perfectly possible to out-eat the 5:2 diet.

It's safer at home now the kids have flown the nest; far fewer comestible temptations hiding in the cupboards.

ben@31

- Pasta or rice the night before
- Porridge for breakfast
- 1 hour 30 minutes from the start of the ride take an energy bar
- Then 1 energy bar every hour

wongataa wrote:

I've done 74 miles on a bottle of water, a bottle of orange squash, and a Double Decker.

^^^ Depends on the intensity. A powermeter is handy for pacing yourself. Deliberately soft pedal at a low wattage and you can last all day.

ben@31

keef66 wrote:

mrfpb wrote:

The human brain is wired to overeat in times of plenty, in order to sustain the body through scarce times. Before the second world war this wasn't an issue (except for the very well off). Since the end of rationing post WWII and the development of large scale, high yield farming, the West has for the first time been in a postion where even the lowest socio-ecoonmic groups have access to more calories than they need every day. Add to this a move from labour intensive jobs to sedentary jobs, the calories in/calories out equation has shifted considerably across the developed world.

My brain is certainly hard wired to overeat when food is freely available, especially sweet things. It's definitely something to do with the reward centres in the brain. I should probably never try any Class A drugs, I find Haribo irresistible. And I'm always amazed too by how efficiently my body lays down the extra calories as fat. The only way I've found I can keep my weight in check is with intermittent fasting, and even then it's a lot harder to lose weight than gain it. Makes evolutionary sense to me. And commercial sense to my dentist.

Some of the most alarming obesity / type 2 statistics are coming from places which have only relatively recently had access to more calories than is good for them. The wealthier parts of the Middle East, and quite a few of the Pacific island nations for instance. This also suggests there may be a strong genetic component to the predisposition of some populations to obesity / type 2.

It is very much like watching a car crash. We know it's going to happen but we're powerless to stop it. Nobel Prize for anyone coming up with a solution...

The problem I have is when my work has a vending machine full of chocolate and fizzy pop. Especially in the middle of a quiet night shift and the chocolate its sat there in front of me shouting out "eat me, you know you want to".
Its too tempting when you're bored and have access to it.
The best thing that can happen is my work runs out of the chocolate coated slags and Vimto.

awavey

ben@31 wrote:

The problem I have is when my work has a vending machine full of chocolate and fizzy pop. Especially in the middle of a quiet night shift and the chocolate its sat there in front of me shouting out "eat me, you know you want to".
Its too tempting when you're bored and have access to it.
The best thing that can happen is my work runs out of the chocolate coated slags and Vimto.

our office has a cake table, which gets filled with donuts, chocolate, tins of biscuits, hot cross buns this week, stuff never lasts more than few days, and I never partake, Im really good at avoiding comfort snacking like that, or popping to a vending machine, and yet Im the only one who ever seems to gain any weight in the office just shows you everyones metabolism is different.

for me if I was doing a 70miler, pasta/chicken the night before, porridge in the morning and then bananas & jaffa cakes just to top up at the rest stops, plus plenty of water. Id have gels, but I use them only as last resort, I know by then they probably dont make a lot of difference but they seem to give me enough of a boost to make it home.

one of the sportives Id signed up to this year is offering bacon butties at the startline, and I was thinking Im not actually sure I want a bacon buttie before doing a sportive, finishing maybe, but not convinced it will help.

shimanobottombracket

Slowbike wrote:

wongataa wrote:

I've done 74 miles on a bottle of water, a bottle of orange squash, and a Double Decker.

Pah - anyone can do 74 miles on a bus!

Like hell they can. I would have died after the first 20 or so, not because the bus would have crashed or even because of a disease, but because I would have wanted to.

yiannism

I am 87kg 180 so similar built with you and i do 70 miles almost every Saturday what i do, is the day before to eat some carbs, and as a breakfast 2 nescafe 2 slice of bread some butter honey and a slice of cheese. I curry with me some dried fruits one bar of protein 2 energy gels one bottle of water and one bottle of electrolyte with carbs. They are more than enough for me, i only need some more water

milemuncher1

Jelly babies and beer.