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Crit expectations squarely kicked in the nuts...

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  • mac9091mac9091 Posts: 196
    It's a state of mind. It seem s that you don't have it.

    Ignorance no, many years of racing at a higher level than you are attempting to finish at is called experience. Sitting on a Wattbike ain't gonna help.

    I'll leave you to your number chasing.....

    LOL, i'll amuse you some more then.

    Care to clarify how sitting on a wattbike won't help me? or are you just referring to anyone using a Wattbike? Or just cut your loss there and admit thats a stupid comment?

    Care to remind us what level you started at when you begain? Or did you just jump in a pro level?

    censored am i talking to Fabian, Alex, Geraint, Mark or even big Sir Chris? Oh...No... Then your winning mentaility can't be any good as i've never heard of you.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    Imposter wrote:

    Ignorance no, many years of racing at a higher level than you are attempting to finish at is called experience. Sitting on a Wattbike ain't gonna help.

    You must be the fastest rider on the internet - proper hero....

    Ahhh - recognition at last. Thank you.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    mac9091 wrote:
    It's a state of mind. It seem s that you don't have it.

    Ignorance no, many years of racing at a higher level than you are attempting to finish at is called experience. Sitting on a Wattbike ain't gonna help.

    I'll leave you to your number chasing.....

    LOL, i'll amuse you some more then.

    Care to clarify how sitting on a wattbike won't help me? or are you just referring to anyone using a Wattbike? Or just cut your loss there and admit thats a stupid comment?

    Care to remind us what level you started at when you begain? Or did you just jump in a pro level?

    shoot am i talking to Fabian, Alex, Geraint, Mark or even big Sir Chris? Oh...No... Then your winning mentaility can't be any good as i've never heard of you.

    well I would say I'd race you but as you're really shitt it's not worth it. You'd either fall off or fall over trying to keep up.

    Yes I started at Cat 4 but as I'm not shitt like you I didn't have to post on a forum about random numbers that you read about on a forum. I just got on with it. A large element of that is having more natural talent than you, the rest is attitude.

    It's like absolutely everything in life: go in there to win it, not be mediocre second.

    Good luck in tt'ing round next weekend.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • mac9091mac9091 Posts: 196
    well I would say I'd race you but as you're really shitt it's not worth it. You'd either fall off or fall over trying to keep up.

    Yes I started at Cat 4 but as I'm not shitt like you I didn't have to post on a forum about random numbers that you read about on a forum. I just got on with it. A large element of that is having more natural talent than you, the rest is attitude.

    It's like absolutely everything in life: go in there to win it, not be mediocre second.

    Good luck in tt'ing round next weekend.

    Thats nice calling a beginner censored . (One t by the way, additional ttts don't make me any more censored ) However if you mean "Your not as good as me when i started" then no some are always going to be better than others.

    You arrogantly try to compare where you are now with where i am now, you might beat me however it isn't a fair match, you have "years of experience"

    These random numbers that i have aren't random they are results from tests: My weight, well i weigh myself and therefore know how heavy i am (not not in my case), my FTP of 213W and 3.62W/kg was from my last test carried out last month to give me a base to start from for the season. Therefore i can safely say that from these "random" numbers i am a better climber than a sprinter and at the end of the season i will be able to accurately compare how well i have improved.

    You state natural talent and attitude, i'd say that you may be naturally good but have a censored attitude (soely derived from your attitude towards the lack of help towards others) hence why i haven't heard of you in the pro arena. Perhaps if you trained harder, you wouldn't have spare time being a censored .

    Not everything in life is a competition and as for TT'ing next Tuesday (don't suppose your local to Exeter and can come along as well???) I have a time in which i can try to improve on, so even if/ when i get dropped i'll still have something to better.

    Your 1st comment was reasonable/helpful, why the change in attitude?
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    mac9091 wrote:
    Your 1st comment was reasonable/helpful, why the change in attitude?

    Because he's a troll(e) with passive/aggressive tendencies. He'll be back later to prove it...
  • mac9091mac9091 Posts: 196
    Normally though they don't bother being (appearing to be) helpful.
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,571
    Well, if you're going to call someone ignorant as per your post - especially me - don't expect me to hang around bearing gifts of joy.

    The only advice I can give is drop the numbers game and all that jazz, go out and ride and train. Watts and all jazz aren't worth worrying about until you're Cat 2 and have a bit of experience.

    And yes, everything in life is a competition.
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • paul2718paul2718 Posts: 471
    800W for 20s is more than I deployed at 80kg to easily move from 4th cat to 3rd. Your acceleration should be awesome, especially up hill.

    The numbers matter, but they can also be a mental barrier. As is the expectation of being dropped, but you've only raced twice, and it's the first end of the season. The beginning features very fast beginners, the end features desperadoes. The middle is nice and quiet. So stick it out.

    Paul
  • paul2718paul2718 Posts: 471
    Flâneur wrote:
    Mf is right, if you race and don't want to win, don't expect to ever come ranked.
    Mf is a censored .

    In 4th Cat racing the win is to get your 3rd Cat licence. This requires at least two finishes, in most environments, two 4th places is as good as two wins. Winning is great, but if you go 'all in' every time you can end up with nothing time after time. One win and nothing else means you start again next year.

    So learn to hold a wheel, ride near the front, use the corners to minimise your effort. If you have a good sprint you will win from time to time, otherwise you will score points. Either way, mission accomplished.

    Paul
  • stretchystretchy Posts: 149
    paul2718 wrote:
    Flâneur wrote:
    Mf is right, if you race and don't want to win, don't expect to ever come ranked.
    Mf is a censored .

    Yeah, best to ignore him. He gives shoot advice anyway.

  • So, you sat in your car taking pictures of women in Lycra in the rain?

    Keep an eye out on the big girls thread.
    I'm sorry you don't believe in miracles
  • bucklesbuckles Posts: 694
    paul2718 wrote:
    Flâneur wrote:
    Mf is right, if you race and don't want to win, don't expect to ever come ranked.
    Mf is a censored .

    In 4th Cat racing the win is to get your 3rd Cat licence. This requires at least two finishes, in most environments, two 4th places is as good as two wins. Winning is great, but if you go 'all in' every time you can end up with nothing time after time. One win and nothing else means you start again next year.

    So learn to hold a wheel, ride near the front, use the corners to minimise your effort. If you have a good sprint you will win from time to time, otherwise you will score points. Either way, mission accomplished.

    Paul
    No wonder 3rd and 4th cat racing is so negative and boring. Nobody willing to attack, or to follow attacks, in case they get tired and end up being spat out of the back. They'd rather play it safe and have more chance of getting a couple of points by coming 8th in the sprint, than to potentially risk everything for the chance of winning. Makes for absolutely shite racing and makes me wonder what the point of putting all the effort into training, travelling etc. if you're just going to spend your Sunday morning 'playing it safe' and hiding in the wheels instead of doing something exciting. Might as well go and play golf.
    25% off your first MyProtein order: sign up via https://www.myprotein.com/referrals.lis ... EE-R29Y&li or use my referral code LEE-R29Y
  • mac9091mac9091 Posts: 196
    buckles wrote:
    if you're just going to spend your Sunday morning 'playing it safe' and hiding in the wheels instead of doing something exciting. Might as well go and play golf.

    Oi play (well played) golf as well. :D

    Someone gave me he tip of attacking from the start and getting a lap on the bunch and then hanging at the back for the win. Told him that wasn't going to happen.
    Well, if you're going to call someone ignorant as per your post - especially me - don't expect me to hang around bearing gifts of joy.

    The only advice I can give is drop the numbers game and all that jazz, go out and ride and train. Watts and all jazz aren't worth worrying about until you're Cat 2 and have a bit of experience.

    And yes, everything in life is a competition.

    You are ignorant.

    Example 1: You state Watts don't matter, well yes they do. Whether you are aware of what figures you put out or not is a different matter. If it wasn't for Watts you wouldn't be able to win any races as you wouldn't be moving. Thats Physics.

    Example 2: "you're not me so you're not going to win it." Thats arrogance, it may be from experience and you may have won your 2nd race but was your competition as good as mine? or someone elses? For all we know there was 10 of you and the rest were built like me.

    and then you came out with this "Some call it arrogance but it's not being arrogant when you're the best." Well your not the best so you are arrogant by your own admission.

    With regards to "everything in life is a competition" I take it you don't have a driving license anymore due to being banned for numerous speeding offences, otherwise that old guy in the car in front of you won.
  • okgookgo Posts: 4,368
    Your post had very little in the way of 'direction' though, you've basically found out why tiny guys don't win flat crits. You'll be good on the right terrain, but the crit mentioned probably isn't it. Stick with it and find the terrain that suits you.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • buckles wrote:
    paul2718 wrote:
    Flâneur wrote:
    Mf is right, if you race and don't want to win, don't expect to ever come ranked.
    Mf is a censored .

    In 4th Cat racing the win is to get your 3rd Cat licence. This requires at least two finishes, in most environments, two 4th places is as good as two wins. Winning is great, but if you go 'all in' every time you can end up with nothing time after time. One win and nothing else means you start again next year.

    So learn to hold a wheel, ride near the front, use the corners to minimise your effort. If you have a good sprint you will win from time to time, otherwise you will score points. Either way, mission accomplished.

    Paul
    No wonder 3rd and 4th cat racing is so negative and boring. Nobody willing to attack, or to follow attacks, in case they get tired and end up being spat out of the back. They'd rather play it safe and have more chance of getting a couple of points by coming 8th in the sprint, than to potentially risk everything for the chance of winning. Makes for absolutely shite racing and makes me wonder what the point of putting all the effort into training, travelling etc. if you're just going to spend your Sunday morning 'playing it safe' and hiding in the wheels instead of doing something exciting. Might as well go and play golf.

    Lol nobody willing to follow attacks? the problem is, everyone follows every attack! It's the equivalent to kiddies football, everyone chases the ball around the pitch, there's no structure or tactics. You intentionally let a wheel go and the guys behind start panicking. The point is, it's all part of the learning curve.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,140
    kingpinsam wrote:

    Lol nobody willing to follow attacks? the problem is, everyone follows every attack! It's the equivalent to kiddies football, everyone chases the ball around the pitch, there's no structure or tactics. You intentionally let a wheel go and the guys behind start panicking. The point is, it's all part of the learning curve.


    That's true, too many to close down attacks, close down rather than try and get across to or initiate an attack.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • DavidJBDavidJB Posts: 2,019
    kingpinsam wrote:
    buckles wrote:
    paul2718 wrote:
    Flâneur wrote:
    Mf is right, if you race and don't want to win, don't expect to ever come ranked.
    Mf is a censored .

    In 4th Cat racing the win is to get your 3rd Cat licence. This requires at least two finishes, in most environments, two 4th places is as good as two wins. Winning is great, but if you go 'all in' every time you can end up with nothing time after time. One win and nothing else means you start again next year.

    So learn to hold a wheel, ride near the front, use the corners to minimise your effort. If you have a good sprint you will win from time to time, otherwise you will score points. Either way, mission accomplished.

    Paul
    No wonder 3rd and 4th cat racing is so negative and boring. Nobody willing to attack, or to follow attacks, in case they get tired and end up being spat out of the back. They'd rather play it safe and have more chance of getting a couple of points by coming 8th in the sprint, than to potentially risk everything for the chance of winning. Makes for absolutely shite racing and makes me wonder what the point of putting all the effort into training, travelling etc. if you're just going to spend your Sunday morning 'playing it safe' and hiding in the wheels instead of doing something exciting. Might as well go and play golf.

    Lol nobody willing to follow attacks? the problem is, everyone follows every attack! It's the equivalent to kiddies football, everyone chases the ball around the pitch, there's no structure or tactics. You intentionally let a wheel go and the guys behind start panicking. The point is, it's all part of the learning curve.

    +1 they love it...like a dog after a tennis ball :lol:
  • paul2718paul2718 Posts: 471
    buckles wrote:
    No wonder 3rd and 4th cat racing is so negative and boring. Nobody willing to attack, or to follow attacks, in case they get tired and end up being spat out of the back. They'd rather play it safe and have more chance of getting a couple of points by coming 8th in the sprint, than to potentially risk everything for the chance of winning. Makes for absolutely shite racing and makes me wonder what the point of putting all the effort into training, travelling etc. if you're just going to spend your Sunday morning 'playing it safe' and hiding in the wheels instead of doing something exciting. Might as well go and play golf.
    Cat 4 racing isn't for spectators. The point is to do as little of it as possible and move on to more exciting options.

    Paul
  • Too much time spent looking at your power meter, using low power as an excuse.

    Some top end intervals and speed work will help you but as I think has been mentioned, you just need to ride more. Not many people will win their first races.

    Crits are simple. They are pretty much flat out from the start. Get used to making those efforts and you'll improve.

    The comment that you are too light for crits is bu11sh1t. You'll be fine once you get used to riding them.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001

    The comment that you are too light for crits is bu11sh1t. You'll be fine once you get used to riding them.


    Agree with this. My lad rides U14 and looking at the last race he did with chip timing, the U14s were lapping faster than the 4th cat event later in the day. Quite a size range in U14, with some tiny riders, but it doesn't stop them getting on the gas.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 6,140
    Imposter wrote:

    The comment that you are too light for crits is bu11sh1t. You'll be fine once you get used to riding them.


    Agree with this. My lad rides U14 and looking at the last race he did with chip timing, the U14s were lapping faster than the 4th cat event later in the day. Quite a size range in U14, with some tiny riders, but it doesn't stop them getting on the gas.

    It's not a time trial though so lap times are irrelevant - anyone that could finish a 4th cat race comfortably would be u14 world champion - they are a couple of years off being able to mix it with adults.
    AFC Mercia women - sign for us
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    Imposter wrote:

    The comment that you are too light for crits is bu11sh1t. You'll be fine once you get used to riding them.


    Agree with this. My lad rides U14 and looking at the last race he did with chip timing, the U14s were lapping faster than the 4th cat event later in the day. Quite a size range in U14, with some tiny riders, but it doesn't stop them getting on the gas.

    It's not a time trial though so lap times are irrelevant - anyone that could finish a 4th cat race comfortably would be u14 world champion - they are a couple of years off being able to mix it with adults.

    Sure, it's just an interesting anecdote that's all and I can understand a lot of 4th cats being skeptical. The point I'm making is that being light will not stop you from riding fast.
  • okgookgo Posts: 4,368
    Not, but people of that size often don't have the engine to compete on the flat with other people. And they usually cannot sprint either, so its a pretty bad combo for most crits.

    Exceptions apply, but you know.
    Blog on my first and now second season of proper riding/racing - www.firstseasonracing.com
  • mac9091mac9091 Posts: 196
    Too much time spent looking at your power meter, using low power as an excuse.

    Some top end intervals and speed work will help you but as I think has been mentioned, you just need to ride more. Not many people will win their first races.

    Crits are simple. They are pretty much flat out from the start. Get used to making those efforts and you'll improve.

    The comment that you are too light for crits is bu11sh1t. You'll be fine once you get used to riding them.

    Cheers.

    Was racing again last night and went a bit better, as in slightly faster average speed despite a stronger wind. When i was lapping on my own i was only doing about 3 mph slower than the bunch so had i stayed in the bunch the speed wouldn't be the issue. Its staying in the bunch that clearly i am having an issue with, using more of my energy closing gaps because i start too far back. I think i lack aggression with regards to holding my posistion, thus letting people in too easily and wasting energy.

    as for working top end i'm looking for 0.4M segments (on strava) and making up a small loop which i can do multiple efforts with the ability to take one 0.4M rest, then go again and keep working like that.
    Imposter wrote:
    Agree with this. My lad rides U14 and looking at the last race he did with chip timing, the U14s were lapping faster than the 4th cat event later in the day. Quite a size range in U14, with some tiny riders, but it doesn't stop them getting on the gas.

    I'd say that either the U14 race stayed as a bigger bunch and worked well together or there was a couple of strong legs on the front and everyone stayed together. With the Cat 4s massive gaps appear between wheels from the start and make it hard work to close them.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,001
    mac9091 wrote:

    I'd say that either the U14 race stayed as a bigger bunch and worked well together or there was a couple of strong legs on the front and everyone stayed together. With the Cat 4s massive gaps appear between wheels from the start and make it hard work to close them.

    It's almost certainly true that many U14s - having been through the BC/go-ride club system - probably have better bunch riding skills than most 4ths ;)
  • What's your 1 minute and 5 minute FTP's?

    To me a 220 or 250w FTP means jack squat if you can't put out 325w for 5 minutes or 450 or 500+ for 1 minute.

    I'm sure there are people who routinely do century rides with no formal power training and could FTP 220w easily but could never do difficult interval training and couldn't put down 500W ever to save their life.

    I'm a total noob to cycling and in about 9 months have gone from about 150w to 210w for FTP. That's still nothing but peanuts. But I benefited from doing lots of really heavy weights from lifting for a few years before ever riding. So putting out some big number for 1 minute isn't so bad. The proof is in that for longer segments, I'm kind of average. Top 25 to 30%. But in short segments under 2 minutes, I've got some top 10's and a KOM among riders I know would whooop my censored in any meaningful ride.

    I would assume crits would be all about 1 minute and 4 minute efforts and road races about sprint finishes or sustained 20 minute + efforts.

    I'd figure out how long your races are, then train with power on a stationary in the same way the crits happen. All of those bursts and recoveries. Do 4 minute intervals with 1 minute recovery for the length of time of a race. Throw in a few 1 minute big number intervals with recovery.

    I find that just riding around town doesn't work necessarily well due to stop lights, signs, curves, downhill. It's hard to control the environment to force your body into the right power output for the right amount of time to train it.
  • w00dsterw00dster Posts: 879
    Burnthesheep gives some good info about the types of power you need to be sustaining. There is also the tactical element of crit that you need to think about. I'm not the heaviest or the most powerful, I tend to not get dropped but I can't contest the sprints.
    Ignore any primes or mid race bonuses, let the sprinters tire themselves out. The obvious advice is to pick the wheels you want to follow early on in a race. I like to stay within the top 10 or 15 as much as possible. I will stay very close to someone who I know is a strong rider and will try and hold their wheel as much as I can. Try and think about the line for corners and avoid being pushed out into the wind. You need to fully concentrate on this planning ahead. Get too close to the back of the pack and gaps appear, that means you are going to be working hard to close the gap and are losing the benefit of drafting.
    In your warm up think about the wind direction and start thinking about the best line for the corners, if there are sharp corners you know there is going to be a sprint out of them, plan for it, don't be on the outside into the wind when this is going to happen.
    I do a lot of training to increase my threshold, yesterday was a session working on 5 min endurance, 115% FTP for 3 mins, 3 mins active recovery at 50% FTP, 110%FTP for 4 mins, 4 mins active recovery, 5 mins at 105% FTP and then 5 mins active recovery - this was repeated 3 times. I only managed to do it twice, my legs and lungs were on fire.
    Good luck with your next race, let us know how you get on.
  • w00dsterw00dster Posts: 879
    Forgot to say, if you haven't done so already search for the free speed!
    Buy the fastest set of tyre you can and put in some latex tubes, aero for crits whilst not the be all and end all, you at some point are going to be going 25mph and you'll be on the outside wanting every aero benefit you can. Aero helmet, aero clothing, wheels if you haven't done so already.
    I don't care what people say about aero not being important for crits, even if during an hours race it only provides 5 mins "assistance", there is no detriment to having it.
  • VslowpaceVslowpace Posts: 189
    Speed is only the half of it. Tactical awareness and positioning counts for quite a lot in these races. The OP alludes to this in his last post as to where he thinks he is falling short.

    Saving energy, reading the race and finding the right wheel are all skills acquired through racing.
  • mac9091mac9091 Posts: 196
    What's your 1 minute and 5 minute FTP's?

    The proof is in that for longer segments, I'm kind of average. Top 25 to 30%. But in short segments under 2 minutes, I've got some top 10's and a KOM among riders I know would whooop my censored in any meaningful ride.

    Cheers

    Not sure as i haven't tested on those but at a guess i'd expect to hold 350-400W for a minute but maybe only 240W for the 5, as the last time i carried out a 3min test on the wattbike it was only 252W but that was last year.

    Strava segment wise, I have a few 0.4M flat sprints that i'm just a couple of seconds off KOM as i've been going for them recently, so would think that my guesstimated 1 min power is accurate. Long or steep climbs i edge up the list but thats not going for them as they are normally part of a longer loop where i am trying to better my time over the 20/30/40 miles.

    Will look to find some 1.5 - 3 mile segments to attack.
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