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SRAM Red 22 crankset in a BB30A Cannondale Synapse carbon?

odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
edited April 2017 in Workshop
Hello everyone

I have a cannondale synapse carbon frame, 2015 to be specific.
I plan to build the bike myself, save for the complicated stuff like BB installation and cutting the fork and headset.
I also have a SRAM Red 22 BB30 crankset.
I went to Evans the other day and asked for a quote to do the above 2 jobs, fit the crankset and cut the fork and install the headset.
For some reason, the guy in store had no idea what kind of bottom bracket I need?
Can some one please enlighten me?
I kept researching the past few days, but can't seem to find a simple answer to what BB I need to buy for the crank and frame? Also, I keep seeing options for BB30, but not BB30A?
Isn't BB30A supposed to be 5mm wider on the drive side? 73mm vs 68mm for the older BB30?
So how come they are the same in all options I see?
Also, is my BB shell press fit or threaded?
Very confused? And it didn't help that the guys in one of the UK's biggest cylce stores were confused as well?
Thanks

Posts

  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    edited April 2017
    Your shell is pressfit.

    BB30A is the same as BB30 but with a wider shell, Yes. The same type of bearings press into the metal shell in exactly the same way. It should not be confused with PF30A which uses a plastic sleeve with bearings thats then pressed into the frame. This link explains it well http://wheelsmfg.com/bb30a-tech-info

    If i am not mistaken your RED22 crankset will not fit BB30A because the spindle is too short. Only the Sram FORCE22 crankset has the spindle that's long enough.

    The only other cranks that would fit BB30A are Cannondale SI or SISL (BB30A specific) cranks or FSA BB386EVO cranks. Which also have a longer spindle.
    You could also convert the BB30A to work with 24mm Shimano cranks or Sram GXP by using adaptors.

    You can buy ''BB30'' bearings from a cycling brand and pay way over the odds,or you can buy them from a bearings supplier for way cheaper. BB30 bearings are '6806-2RS 30x42x7mm' bearings.
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... mm&_sop=15

    They are relatively easy to install. BB30 is the easiest out of all the pressfit systems to work with because there are no plastic cups to damage. You'll need to install two BB30 circips rings
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FSA-BB30-Bott ... SwKIpV~VJI
    into the shell to stop the bearings sliding deeper in the shell. Then use a press tool to press the bearing in (1 side at a time). Apply some grease to all the surfaces and they will slide in easier and it will also prevent creaking.

    You can make a simple homemade press tool with a threaded rod,flat spacers and nuts. or they can found pre-made on ebay like this
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Bottom-Bracke ... SwepZXSMI6
  • figbatfigbat Posts: 680
    BB30/a are press-fitted. I did my alloy Synapse myself in around 20 minutes with no special tools. You can use a bearing press or I used the old bearing race and small taps to run the bearings in squarely.
    Cube Reaction GTC Pro 29 for the lumpy stuff
    Cannondale Synapse alloy with 'guards for the winter roads
    Fuji Altamira 2.7 for the summer roads
    Trek 830 Mountain Track frame turned into a gravel bike - for anywhere & everywhere
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:

    If i am not mistaken your RED22 crankset will not fit BB30A because the spindle is too short. Only the Sram FORCE22 crankset has the spindle that's long enough.
    hash=item2eff0efdaa:g:RLcAAOSwepZXSMI6

    Many thanks for your reply.

    Are you sure about the comment I have just quoted??

    That would be a shocker for me, after just buying the SRAM Red 22 crankset!!

    How come then Cannondale sell Hi Mod models fitted with FULL SRAM Red 22 group sets including the crankset?

    Also, it seems I am confused between bearings and bottom bracket?

    What do I actually need to buy? Can you point me in the direction of an actual bottom. Racket to go out and buy?

    Many thanks
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    figbat wrote:
    BB30/a are press-fitted. I did my alloy Synapse myself in around 20 minutes with no special tools. You can use a bearing press or I used the old bearing race and small taps to run the bearings in squarely.

    Thanks for the reply.

    So, I have the frame and the red 22 crankset without BB.

    Can you please point me in the direction of what I need to buy to fit the crankset to the frame?

    Parts and tools please?

    Many thanks
  • arlowoodarlowood Posts: 2,538
    edited April 2017
    odessouky wrote:
    So, I have the frame and the red 22 crankset without BB.

    Can you please point me in the direction of what I need to buy to fit the crankset to the frame?

    Parts and tools please?

    Many thanks

    If you look at the C_Bear pdf below you will see that their SRAM BB convertors do not distinguish between groupset levels so the comments above about Red and Force being different spindle lengths are suspect to say the least.

    https://www.c-bear.com/bbchart.pdf

    From their range - this is what you need

    https://www.c-bear.com/en/products/bott ... e-sram-gxp

    Here is a video from the C-Bear website of how to install a 386 EVO pressfit BB which should give you the general idea of how to go about it

    https://www.c-bear.com/en/video/c-bear- ... 86-install

    But I'm sure you may get something a bit cheaper elsewhere say from Wheels Manufacturing

    http://wheelsmfg.com/bbright-adapter-fo ... ranks.html
  • arlowood wrote:
    odessouky wrote:
    So, I have the frame and the red 22 crankset without BB.

    Can you please point me in the direction of what I need to buy to fit the crankset to the frame?

    Parts and tools please?

    Many thanks

    If you look at the C_Bear pdf below you will see that their SRAM BB convertors do not distinguish between groupset levels so the comments above about Red and Force being different spindle lengths are suspect to say the least.

    https://www.c-bear.com/bbchart.pdf

    From their range - this is what you need

    https://www.c-bear.com/en/products/bott ... e-sram-gxp

    But I'm sure you may get something a bit cheaper elsewhere say from Wheels Manufacturing

    http://wheelsmfg.com/bbright-adapter-fo ... ranks.html

    I was going to suggest c-bear, but the one you have linked to is for a GXP crankset, the OP has a BB30 crankset. I'm not sure what he needs to for his situation though! OP - try looking on the weightweenies forum, there have been a few guys on there recently building up CAAD12's who have had a similar problem I think.....

    ETA - try this thread http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... 0&t=144128
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    odessouky wrote:
    That would be a shocker for me, after just buying the SRAM Red 22 crankset!!

    How come then Cannondale sell Hi Mod models fitted with FULL SRAM Red 22 group sets including the crankset?

    I am unable to find another example of a Red22 crankset fitted to a synapse except for this review
    https://cyclingtips.com/2015/04/cannond ... od-review/
    I dont know if that was fitted only for promotional purposes or if it was region specific etc the site is based in Australia. At a guess id say Cannondale specifically ordered a longer spindle Red22 crank for this bike.

    Most of the Hi Mod models (at least sold in the UK) come with Cannondale SISL cranksets, some other models came with Sram S-series S952/S902 cranksets (Some variants of these also have a longer spindle too). The aftermarket Sram Red22 BB30 cranks already on the market i believe have a shorter spindle because BB30A was released after RED22 (2013) was. Though its entirely possible Sram have quitely made a running change to the spindle specs. If in doubt measure your Red22 spindle. It needs to measure 105mm or more to fit BB30A. I just measured my Sram Force 22 PF30 crank spindle to get this measurement. Mine is 105mm.

    odessouky wrote:
    Also, it seems I am confused between bearings and bottom bracket?

    What do I actually need to buy? Can you point me in the direction of an actual bottom. Racket to go out and buy?

    Many thanks

    You two need 6806-2RS 30x42x7mm bearings, Once pressed in they become the bottom bracket.

    (a classic bottom bracket would normally use cups that contain the bearings then the cups screw into the frame like a hollowtech 2 bb for example. BB30 doesn't use any cups. The bottom bracket shell acts as the cups.)

    And

    2 x circlips, 2 x bearing covers, 1 x wavy washer and some plastic spacers (to take up any play)

    a kit like this
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-SRAM- ... SwdGFYxmw0

    If you want to save money on the bearings. Order them separately online. And buy some spares as well for when they eventually die. They fail in singles, not doubles so you only need to replace 1 side at a time.
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    try looking on the weightweenies forum, there have been a few guys on there recently building up CAAD12's who have had a similar problem I think.....

    ETA - try this thread http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... 0&t=144128

    So reading that suggests there is a workaround if you remove the preload adjuster and black spacer completely from the Red crank and use plastic spacers and wavy washer until you find a workable configuration to eliminate any play.

    But this example is newest Red22 crank. Is your new Red22 crank the same model, with the same spindle length ?
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    Thanks everyone for the excellent replies.
    I'm getting worried now about the crankset not fitting!!
    It is arriving Monday, its brand new, so not sure what the length will be.
    I will measure it and post back
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    Here's what I mean:

    The SuperSix Evo, which also has a BB30A bottom bracket has a SRAM Red Crankset:

    http://www.cannondale.com/en/Great%20Britain/Bike/ProductDetail?Id=1fddf75e-1ba5-4b96-95fe-687bbeff88ce&parentid=undefined

    Screen%20Shot%202017-04-01%20at%2017.53.37.png

    And the Synapse Hi-Mod Black also looks like it has a SRAM Red crankset?

    http://www.cannondale.com/en/Great%20Britain/Bike/ProductDetail?Id=c72136ac-29ec-419d-b14d-67a472900969&parentid=undefined

    Screen%20Shot%202017-04-01%20at%2017.54.12.png

    Yet, strangely in the specs details, it says its a Cannondale SISL2 Crankset, but the picture is clearly a SRAM Red?

    And on Sigma Sports, the 2017 SuperSix Evo eTap has a SRAM Red, and its a BB30A just like the synapse?

    https://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Cannondale/SuperSix-Evo-Hi-Mod-Red-eTap-Road-Bike-2017/E489?utm_source=google&utm_medium=base&utm_campaign=base&co=GBR&cu=GBP&gclid=Cj0KEQjwn_3GBRDc8rCnup-1x8wBEiQAdw3OAdVtAh051QcobXBi_Z55BcPy2qfBJ-_tGJGuvs6KleMaAjyF8P8HAQ&gclsrc=aw.ds
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    This thread also confirms removing the preloader works
    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... p?t=143617
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:
    This thread also confirms removing the preloader works
    http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum ... p?t=143617


    Many many thanks...looks like you are on to the solution...finally..

    But can you please add to your previous helpful step by step approach and explain in simple ENGLISH?

    :D

    What is a retainer, preloader...etc!!

    What the heck...more things I need to research??!!
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    The preload adjuster looks like this.
    CK2166.jpg

    It is threaded in the centre and it is designed to remove any side to side play if you turn it. It is held on the spindle by the a hex screw on the side. If you loosen the hex screw it will slide off the spindle. There is a chance the preload adjuster may already be uninstalled out of the box. If so, do not install it. Just fit the bearing covers on each side of the BB30 bearings, then the plastic washers (4 or 5) and wavy washer last, both on the non drive side. If you tighten everything up and the crank has too much resistance when trying to spin. Trying removing a plastic washer. If the crank has any side to side play then you need to add more plastic washers.


    And yes you need to use Google, Even better Youtube :D
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:
    The preload adjuster looks like this.
    CK2166.jpg

    It is threaded in the centre and it is designed to remove any side to side play if you turn it. It is held on the spindle by the a hex screw on the side. If you loosen the hex screw it will slide off the spindle. There is a chance the preload adjuster may already be uninstalled out of the box. If so, do not install it. Just fit the bearing covers on each side of the BB30 bearings, then the plastic washers (4 or 5) and wavy washer last, both on the non drive side. If you tighten everything up and the crank has too much resistance when trying to spin. Trying removing a plastic washer. If the crank has any side to side play then you need to add more plastic washers.


    And yes you need to use Google, Even better Youtube :D

    Many thanks for that.

    Does removing this preload adjuster have any negative impact?
    I suppose it was there for a reason?
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    No. It's essentially just an adjustable spacer. It functions the same as a spacer. By Removing it. You are only removing a spacer. Giving you more spindle room.

    It's meant to make adjusting any side-to-side play easier without the need of removing the crank then installing/removing spacers.
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    So is this the bottom bracket I will need to buy? And is this the correct process? I think the Cannondale in the video is a SuperSix Evo?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WiAGiA591g
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    No. That is a pressfit30 (PF30) bottom bracket. PF30 uses plastic cups that press into the shell. On BB30A its the bearings that press into the metal shell. The process in the video is the same yes. Only you press the bearings in with the press tool.

    This link already posted above explains the differences between PF30 and BB30A
    http://wheelsmfg.com/bb30a-tech-info

    You need two

    '6806-2RS 30x42x7mm' bearings, 2 x circlips, 2 x bearing covers, 1 x wavy washer and around 5 plastic spacers

    a kit like this is what you need to buy
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-SRAM- ... SwdGFYxmw0

    or source the bits above separately

    If you buy the bearings from a bike shop/website you will get ripped off because they only rebadge them from a bearing supplier.
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:
    No. That is a pressfit30 (PF30) bottom bracket. PF30 uses plastic cups that press into the shell. On BB30A its the bearings that press into the metal shell. The process in the video is the same yes. Only you press the bearings in with the press tool.

    This link already posted above explains the differences between PF30 and BB30A
    http://wheelsmfg.com/bb30a-tech-info

    You need two

    '6806-2RS 30x42x7mm' bearings, 2 x circlips, 2 x bearing covers, 1 x wavy washer and around 5 plastic spacers

    a kit like this is what you need to buy
    http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Genuine-SRAM- ... SwdGFYxmw0

    or source the bits above separately

    If you buy the bearings from a bike shop/website you will get ripped off because they only rebadge them from a bearing supplier.


    excellent, many thanks for your reply. Its clear now.

    By the way, how far do I push the 2 bearings in? Should they be pushed in just to be FLUSH with the edge of the frame? Or all the way in?

    Also, is this a safe job for a DIY, or could I crack the frame??
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    First you install the circlip rings on each side of the shell with some needle nose pliers. The circlips snap into little grooves in already inside the shell.

    The circlips then act as a stop,to prevent the bearings sliding further into the shell.

    The bearings do not sit flush with the shell after being pressed in. They sit further inboard by a few mm's.

    It's highly unlikely you will crack the frame. Why would you ? The bottom bracket area is the toughest and thickest carbon part of the frame. The bottom bracket shell is made of metal. Metal cylindrical tubes are highly strong.

    Circlip installation
    P1080863.JPG
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:
    First you install the circlip rings on each side of the shell with some needle nose pliers. The circlips snap into little grooves in already inside the shell.

    The circlips then act as a stop,to prevent the bearings sliding further into the shell.

    The bearings do not sit flush with the shell after being pressed in. They sit further inboard by a few mm's.

    It's highly unlikely you will crack the frame. Why would you ? The bottom bracket area is the toughest and thickest carbon part of the frame. The bottom bracket shell is made of metal. Metal cylindrical tubes are highly strong.

    Circlip installation
    P1080863.JPG


    is this the press i need?

    http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/park ... %7C54511UK
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    No. That's a headset press. It may work but i wouldnt buy that.

    You can find BB30 press tools alot cheaper. Like this for £33. This looks easier to use with handles on both sides.
    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-press- ... installer/
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:
    No. That's a headset press. It may work but i wouldnt buy that.

    You can find BB30 press tools alot cheaper. Like this for £33. This looks easier to use with handles on both sides.
    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-press- ... installer/


    Ok, so now I am going totally nuts with this!

    Went out and bought all the bearings etc you mentioned, and just had a look at the crankset, and for the first time I noticed that it has PF 30 written on it??!!


    IMG_0030.jpg


    Did I buy a wrong crank!

    When I was browsing to buy this, there were 2 options: GXP or BB30/PF30

    I thought the PF30 and BB30 cranks are the same??!!

    Could SRAM possible make THREE different versions of the crankset??!!

    Will this NOT fit my BB30A cannondale synapse? It still has BB30 written on it??!!

    Bloody confusing
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:
    No. That's a headset press. It may work but i wouldnt buy that.

    You can find BB30 press tools alot cheaper. Like this for £33. This looks easier to use with handles on both sides.
    http://www.wiggle.co.uk/lifeline-press- ... installer/


    The SRAM manual that comes with the crank suggests that there are THREE versions of the crank: GXP, PF30, BB30?


    7f491967-8b04-44a8-adfe-f29b9f6bfc42.jpg


    3f693ab5-ed45-40a5-aedd-bd18b6cf970a.jpg

    What the heck, the PF30 and BB30 1-A look exactly the same in the diagrams, but with different measurements:

    PressFit 30 I-A 46mm x 68mm Looks like this is what I bought. Will this fit?!!

    BB30 i-A 42mm x 68mm

    GXP looks very different:

    PressFit GXP 41mm x 86.5mm

    78e8d988-b76b-4aee-a3f4-0937c3398266.jpg
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    odessouky wrote:
    Went out and bought all the bearings etc you mentioned, and just had a look at the crankset, and for the first time I noticed that it has PF 30 written on it??!!

    I thought the PF30 and BB30 cranks are the same??!!

    They are.

    It has PF30 and BB30 written on it. Meaning it will work with both. Both PF30 and BB30(A) use a 30mm spindle. So they are interchangeable. The difference of PF30 and BB30 is to do with how the bearings are pressed into the frame. Not the crank.

    So relax. The crankset you have bought will work in all three types BB30, BB30A and Pressfit 30. (but not GXP)

    The different measurements like 46mm x 68mm and 42mm x 68mm etc, refer to the shell hole diameter and width. Those measure are not related to the spindle width. The wheelsmfg link above explains those measurement. See 'Frame Shell Inner Diameter' in the diagram.

    Your crankset was designed to be used with a 68mm shell with the preload adjuster installed. By removing the preload adjuster you are enabling the crank to be used with a 73mm shell.
  • odessoukyodessouky Posts: 264
    trailflow wrote:
    odessouky wrote:
    Went out and bought all the bearings etc you mentioned, and just had a look at the crankset, and for the first time I noticed that it has PF 30 written on it??!!

    I thought the PF30 and BB30 cranks are the same??!!

    They are.

    It has PF30 and BB30 written on it. Meaning it will work with both. Both PF30 and BB30(A) use a 30mm spindle. So they are interchangeable. The difference of PF30 and BB30 is to do with how the bearings are pressed into the frame. Not the crank.

    So relax. The crankset you have bought will work in all three types BB30, BB30A and Pressfit 30. (but not GXP)

    The different measurements like 46mm x 68mm and 42mm x 68mm etc, refer to the shell hole diameter and width. Those measure are not related to the spindle width. The wheelsmfg link above explains those measurement. See 'Frame Shell Inner Diameter' in the diagram.

    Your crankset was designed to be used with a 68mm shell with the preload adjuster installed. By removing the preload adjuster you are enabling the crank to be used with a 73mm shell.

    :)

    Thanks for that. Yes, I am beginning to understand this. I've learnt a lot in this past 24 hours. Thanks again. Guess I'll fit the cables first etc, then I'll install the crank. Fingers crossed. Thanks
  • itboffinitboffin Posts: 20,035
    This thread is why BR is so good, its​ how i found this forum years ago. SRAM could do with linking their FAQ on BB30A here, and those frankly lack luster exploded colour install guides are NOT enough SRAM.

    Thanks folks I'll be referring back here when i build my CAAD12
    Rule #5 // Harden The censored Up.
    Rule #9 // If you are out riding in bad weather, it means you are a badass. Period.
    Rule #12 // The correct number of bikes to own is n+1.
    Rule #42 // A bike race shall never be preceded with a swim and/or followed by a run.
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