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Attack on parliment

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  • crispybug2crispybug2 Posts: 2,915
    nickice wrote:


    But they're not even recognised as real Muslims by Sunnis and Shias. In fact one was murdered not so long ago in Glasgow by a Sunni Muslim who drove up from Bradford for that purpose. What was even more scary was his supporters in the public gallery. There is an extremism problem in Islam. It's certainly not all Muslims but when you see polls that say 100% of British Muslims think homosexuality is an unacceptable lifestyle and, worse still, 51% think it should be illegal, you realise actions can be tied to beliefs. What's even more worrying is that younger Muslims tended to have more extremist views.


    "96.2% of statistics are made up" - Vic Reeves
  • Garry HGarry H Posts: 6,639
    crispybug2 wrote:
    nickice wrote:


    But they're not even recognised as real Muslims by Sunnis and Shias. In fact one was murdered not so long ago in Glasgow by a Sunni Muslim who drove up from Bradford for that purpose. What was even more scary was his supporters in the public gallery. There is an extremism problem in Islam. It's certainly not all Muslims but when you see polls that say 100% of British Muslims think homosexuality is an unacceptable lifestyle and, worse still, 51% think it should be illegal, you realise actions can be tied to beliefs. What's even more worrying is that younger Muslims tended to have more extremist views.


    "96.2% of statistics are made up" - Vic Reeves

    And the other 15% are debatable :wink:
  • MatthewfalleMatthewfalle Posts: 17,380
    And maybe all that jazz is from the Mail or Express?
    Postby team47b » Sun Jun 28, 2015 11:53 am

    De Sisti wrote:
    This is one of the silliest threads I've come across. :lol:

    Recognition at last Matthew, well done!, a justified honour :D
    smithy21 wrote:

    He's right you know.
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    What i find worrying is this guy was 52yo, recently a 50 yo (ish) british Muslim was killed figting for IS in Syria, perhaps the emphasis on counter acting young Muslims being radicalised is working but older, more "mature" so called Muslims are slipping through.

    i think its a mistake to down play IS influence/ability and what they do or do not know, if these grps have techies who can build a bomb into a ipad then they are not idiots - it will be only time before they get an assault rifle into the UK, for those that doubt this, look how many weapons where smuggled from Libya into Ireland during the 70s and 80s or how many illegal immigrants make it into the UK now.

    Just have to hope that our security services and Police are up to the job, cutting community Policing is a mistake.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,137
    edited March 2017
    Just to completely nail the nonsense that this is somehow linked to immigration, the murderer was born Adrian Russell Ajao in Dartford. By the sounds of his criminal record it would not have been a surprise if he had stabbed someone to death without any IS influence whatsoever.
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  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    And maybe all that jazz is from the Mail or Express?
    https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.theguar ... sharia-law

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may ... osexuality

    If only that were the case. The polling on these matters has been consistently and clear.

    I'mean always amazed that, in the UK, we tend to be surprised that some Muslims have what we'd consider unsavoury views. Would it be a surprise if Christians thought homosexuality was wrong?
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    Garry H wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    Mr Goo wrote:
    rjsterry wrote:
    I see Farage, Nuttall et al can't resist trying to leverage some publicity out of this. The usual nonsense about how the Muslim community should do more (of what is unspecified). I wonder which 'community' should do more to prevent the likes of Thomas Mair.

    I guess they've never heard of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community which is the oldest islamic order in the UK. They have been subject to attacks by the Sunni, Shia and IS supporting muslims within the UK.

    .


    But they're not even recognised as real Muslims by Sunnis and Shias. In fact one was murdered not so long ago in Glasgow by a Sunni Muslim who drove up from Bradford for that purpose. What was even more scary was his supporters in the public gallery. There is an extremism problem in Islam. It's certainly not all Muslims but when you see polls that say 100% of British Muslims think homosexuality is an unacceptable lifestyle and, worse still, 51% think it should be illegal, you realise actions can be tied to beliefs. What's even more worrying is that younger Muslims tended to have more extremist views.

    What, even gay Muslims think it's unacceptable?

    The polls have been clear. There are countless examples of gay Christians who preach that homosexuality is wrong.

    The point I was making is that we shouldn't think that it's a surprise when people actually believe what's in their holy book.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    rjsterry wrote:
    Just to completely nail the nonsense that this is somehow linked to immigration, the murderer was born Adrian Elms in Dartford. By the sounds of his criminal record it would not have been a surprise if he had stabbed someone to death without any IS influence whatsoever.

    You think the majority who moan about immigration won't see someone with an Islamic name and brown skin as an immigrant???

    Ambitious there rjs.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    nickice wrote:
    And maybe all that jazz is from the Mail or Express?
    https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.theguar ... sharia-law

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may ... osexuality

    If only that were the case. The polling on these matters has been consistently and clear.

    I'mean always amazed that, in the UK, we tend to be surprised that some Muslims have what we'd consider unsavoury views. Would it be a surprise if Christians thought homosexuality was wrong?

    No one's surprised. It gets said all the bloody time, usually by people with equally unsavoury motives.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    nickice wrote:
    And maybe all that jazz is from the Mail or Express?
    https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.theguar ... sharia-law

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may ... osexuality

    If only that were the case. The polling on these matters has been consistently and clear.

    I'mean always amazed that, in the UK, we tend to be surprised that some Muslims have what we'd consider unsavoury views. Would it be a surprise if Christians thought homosexuality was wrong?

    No one's surprised.

    Except the poster above who instantly assumed it was tabloid lies. That was the point
  • mamba80mamba80 Posts: 5,032
    What the xxxx has islamic attitudes to homosexuals got to do with this attack? i suspect you d get far from liberal views if you asked the same Q of over 60yo Tory voters.

    Some people will blame immigration as they d say "ah he was born in UK but his parents weren't etc etc blah blah"

    Despite all this negativity over the attack, there were some very brave people out there, esp those who initially tackled the guy and the members of the public and medics who treated the wounded and dying.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    nickice wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    And maybe all that jazz is from the Mail or Express?
    https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.theguar ... sharia-law

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may ... osexuality

    If only that were the case. The polling on these matters has been consistently and clear.

    I'mean always amazed that, in the UK, we tend to be surprised that some Muslims have what we'd consider unsavoury views. Would it be a surprise if Christians thought homosexuality was wrong?

    No one's surprised.

    Except the poster above who instantly assumed it was tabloid lies. That was the point

    As a general rule, when it comes to discussing Islam and Muslims, in the context of a recent Islamist extremist attack, it's usually fair to assume that any 'fact' that's given to show how awful islam is a) has a pretty clear and unsavoury motive, and b) the accuracy and provenance is usually shaky.

    What we hear a lot less often, for example, is how the vast majority of muslims are not only law abiding but good citizens.

    And as for your point about 100% of UK muslims think homosexuality is unacceptable: well I used to work in a 15 man office of which 4 were muslim, and they were the most supportive of more inclusive LGBT action, and it was the white, daily mail reading bosses who were resistant.

    So just in that very specific and small example we can see your stats are likely BS.
  • fat daddyfat daddy Posts: 2,605
    nickice wrote:
    The polls have been clear. There are countless examples of gay Christians who preach that homosexuality is wrong.

    The point I was making is that we shouldn't think that it's a surprise when people actually believe what's in their holy book.


    what bout the non-religious people that commit hate crimes against homosexuals like the soho bomber and the attacks outside nightclubs ... by regular sh1teholes

    perhaps its a simple case of somepeople don't agree with it and a certain percentage of the population are cnuts ? .... anyway this isn't about homosexuality its about the ability to use a car as a weapon .... of which more people in this county have been killed by old people mounting the pavement and mowing people down than by terrorists ...... more people have been stabbed to death by UK born citizens in NON terrorists incidents than by terrorists.

    yet despite this .... its all islams fault :?
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    mamba80 wrote:
    What the xxxx has islamic attitudes to homosexuals got to do with this attack? i suspect you d get far from liberal views if you asked the same Q of over 60yo Tory voters.

    Some people will blame immigration as they d say "ah he was born in UK but his parents weren't etc etc blah blah"

    Despite all this negativity over the attack, there were some very brave people out there, esp those who initially tackled the guy and the members of the public and medics who treated the wounded and dying.

    It was just an example of consequences of beliefs. We shouldn't be surprised when people actually on even more unsavoury beliefs. I can see even on this thread that there's a reluctance to do that. What's interesting is that younger Muslims tended to have more views like these. It might be the case that older British people have fairly bigoted views towards homosexuals (my late grandmother for example whose views were entirely based on religion) but do the younger generation share those views? And if they do, is it based on an ideology ?

    The problem is that the ISIS interpretation of Islam is literal and straightforward. In much the same way that Christian Fundamentalists get their ideas from the Bible, Islamic extremists get their ideas from the Quaran and Hadith. Does that mean all Muslims share the ISIS interpretation? Of course not but with Saudi funding Wahabbism has increased in Europe. People like Maajid Nawaz are doing good work in trying to counter extremism and we can only hope it works.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    What on earth is you point NickIce?

    In the context of the thread, what are you trying to say?
  • bendertherobotbendertherobot Posts: 11,684
    We really need to ban 52 year old hate preachers from Kent from London.
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  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    nickice wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    And maybe all that jazz is from the Mail or Express?
    https://www.google.fr/amp/s/amp.theguar ... sharia-law

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2009/may ... osexuality

    If only that were the case. The polling on these matters has been consistently and clear.

    I'mean always amazed that, in the UK, we tend to be surprised that some Muslims have what we'd consider unsavoury views. Would it be a surprise if Christians thought homosexuality was wrong?

    No one's surprised.

    Except the poster above who instantly assumed it was tabloid lies. That was the point

    As a general rule, when it comes to discussing Islam and Muslims, in the context of a recent Islamist extremist attack, it's usually fair to assume that any 'fact' that's given to show how awful islam is a) has a pretty clear and unsavoury motive, and b) the accuracy and provenance is usually shaky.

    What we hear a lot less often, for example, is how the vast majority of muslims are not only law abiding but good citizens.

    And as for your point about 100% of UK muslims think homosexuality is unacceptable: well I used to work in a 15 man office of which 4 were muslim, and they were the most supportive of more inclusive LGBT action, and it was the white, daily mail reading bosses who were resistant.

    So just in that very specific and small example we can see your stats are likely BS.

    Nobody is saying most Muslims aren't law-abiding citizens. For the hundredth time, the stat about homosexuality was to illustrate the consequences of beliefs. You have an inability to separate Islam from Muslims. I think communism is a dangerous ideology yet I don't hate the members of my family who are communists. And, regarding Islam being bad, all religions are bad. The problem liberals tend to have is that we criticise Christianity openly but tend to back off when it comes to Islam.

    As for the people 'who worked in your office', perhaps you should take it up with the polling company not me. Unless you think that there is some kind of polling conspiracy against Muslims, I'd say it's your anecdotal evidence that is most likely BS.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    nickice wrote:
    The problem liberals tend to have is that we criticise Christianity openly but tend to back off when it comes to Islam..

    Are you actually joking?

    Alright, this outs you as some bigot.

    I'm done with you.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    What on earth is you point NickIce?

    In the context of the thread, what are you trying to say?


    OK, I can't be bothered getting into a heated debate on this because I feel I'm already being marked down as some sort of bigot. I'll just give a summary of my views-

    1) All religions are wrong and have the potential to be dangerous.
    2) The ISIS interpretation of Islam is not as perverted as we are led to believe. In fact, it's most likely how Christianity would have been interpreted before the enlightenment.
    3) Only a minority of Muslims follow such an interpretation BUT it's more than we'd like to think (I include Islamists and not just Jihadists in that)
    3)I deplore any attacks on individual Muslims and believe that the solution to any problems should come from within the Muslim community.
    4) Beliefs have consequences.
    5) Fundamentalist Islam has spread in the UK in recent years (mainly due to Saudi funding)
    6) There is a desperation to distance any attacks from religion. To say any attack 'has nothing to do with Islam' is patently ridiculous. It clearly has something to do with Islam in much the way that Christian fundamentalists have something to do with Christianity.
    7) Denying the above will only seek to increase support for parties like the FN in France.
    8) That's me, back to cycling.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    nickice wrote:
    The problem liberals tend to have is that we criticise Christianity openly but tend to back off when it comes to Islam..

    Are you actually joking?

    Alright, this outs you as some bigot.

    I'm done with you.


    Not at all. In what way does that possibly make me a bigot? I'm happy to say both religions are utter nonsense.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    fat daddy wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    The polls have been clear. There are countless examples of gay Christians who preach that homosexuality is wrong.

    The point I was making is that we shouldn't think that it's a surprise when people actually believe what's in their holy book.


    what bout the non-religious people that commit hate crimes against homosexuals like the soho bomber and the attacks outside nightclubs ... by regular sh1teholes

    perhaps its a simple case of somepeople don't agree with it and a certain percentage of the population are cnuts ? .... anyway this isn't about homosexuality its about the ability to use a car as a weapon .... of which more people in this county have been killed by old people mounting the pavement and mowing people down than by terrorists ...... more people have been stabbed to death by UK born citizens in NON terrorists incidents than by terrorists.

    yet despite this .... its all islams fault :?

    I think the point of terrorism is also that it shows future intention. The primary blame is always on the people who did it.
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    nickice wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    The problem liberals tend to have is that we criticise Christianity openly but tend to back off when it comes to Islam..

    Are you actually joking?

    Alright, this outs you as some bigot.

    I'm done with you.


    Not at all. In what way does that possibly make me a bigot? I'm happy to say both religions are utter nonsense.

    *spends the entire thread discussing how terrible islam is with fairly dubious facts.*

    *ignores all the anti-Islam marches that go on. Forgets that no-other religion get those. Forgets all the anti-Islam headlines on all the main headlines*

    *says people criticise Christianity openly but back off on Islam*
  • mr_goomr_goo Posts: 3,755
    nickice wrote:
    The problem liberals tend to have is that we criticise Christianity openly but tend to back off when it comes to Islam..

    I think what you need to observe is that many mainstream organisations (BBC, Sky News et all) will steer clear of criticising Islam simply because it would only galvanise people like the murderer of Wednesdays attack.
    Islam is not just a religion to Muslims it is a strict code to live ones life. Much of it taken from their holy book. To criticise them is an insult to their beliefs and daily conduct. Unfortunately Islam has yet to catch up with the modern world and many of its scholars and leaders cling on to the ancient ways and will promote the strictest of doctrines.
    Whilst I do not condone any of the Islamic belief system it may be that it could take centuries for it to fully adapt to Western culture. What does not help is the West's cosy relationships with Saudi Arabia and some of the Emirates. These countries are the source of much of the extremism and it's funding. I would add that it's from individuals or organisations and not necessarily the states, however I remain very very sceptical about Saudi Arabia and believe they are quite duplicitous.
    Always be yourself, unless you can be Aaron Rodgers....Then always be Aaron Rodgers.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    nickice wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    The problem liberals tend to have is that we criticise Christianity openly but tend to back off when it comes to Islam..

    Are you actually joking?

    Alright, this outs you as some bigot.

    I'm done with you.


    Not at all. In what way does that possibly make me a bigot? I'm happy to say both religions are utter nonsense.

    *spends the entire thread discussing how terrible islam is with fairly dubious facts.*

    *ignores all the anti-Islam marches that go on. Forgets that no-other religion get those. Forgets all the anti-Islam headlines on all the main headlines*

    *says people criticise Christianity openly but back off on Islam*

    * doesn't understand the use of the word 'liberal' (I'll give you a clue, I don't consider the EDL or the Daily Mail to be liberals)

    * says facts are dubious but hasn't refuted any of them. Plausible interpretation of Islam? Check Polls conducted by reputable companies? Check. Made it clear that I have nothing against individual Muslims and recognise that the majority don't follow a fundamentalist interpretation? Check.

    You then try to shut me down by calling me a bigot...
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    Mr Goo wrote:
    nickice wrote:
    The problem liberals tend to have is that we criticise Christianity openly but tend to back off when it comes to Islam..

    I think what you need to observe is that many mainstream organisations (BBC, Sky News et all) will steer clear of criticising Islam simply because it would only galvanise people like the murderer of Wednesdays attack.
    Islam is not just a religion to Muslims it is a strict code to live ones life. Much of it taken from their holy book. To criticise them is an insult to their beliefs and daily conduct. Unfortunately Islam has yet to catch up with the modern world and many of its scholars and leaders cling on to the ancient ways and will promote the strictest of doctrines.
    Whilst I do not condone any of the Islamic belief system it may be that it could take centuries for it to fully adapt to Western culture. What does not help is the West's cosy relationships with Saudi Arabia and some of the Emirates. These countries are the source of much of the extremism and it's funding. I would add that it's from individuals or organisations and not necessarily the states, however I remain very very sceptical about Saudi Arabia and believe they are quite duplicitous.

    A sensible comment and thankfully it's still possible to have a conversation about this without being called a bigot. I completely understand that some idiots can't tell the difference between Muslims and Islam BUT there is a tendency to close people down who even remotely criticise Islam. Take Maajid Nawaz who has been called an anti-Muslim extremist by the Southern Poverty Law Center or Sam Harris (even though I think he underestimates Western foreign policy's influence) on Bill Maher where Ben Affleck embarrassed himself.

    Frankly, I'm not expecting my news outlets to start criticising religion but liberals do tend to back off criticism of Islam (maybe they saw what happened to Charlie Hebdo and thought it wasn't worth it).
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    I'm not shutting you down mate.

    You just need to understand that that's what you are, and have a think about why that is. Or do you need a safe space where you can be bigoted without being called that?

    This is the thing. People on the right often moan about how they can't talk about islam without being called bigoted, and they come out after a big terrorism attack going "see, Islam,and all religion is bad."

    But they only ever say it in the context of Islam. They use attacks on religion, now that the majorit of the UK isn't religious, as cover for their own islamophobia.

    The right use things like immigration as a vehicle to channel their own bigoted views.

    When Farage says " “If you open your door to uncontrolled immigration from Middle Eastern countries you are inviting in terrorism.” " on Fox news in relation to this attack, when the attacker is from the same county as he is, why do you think he says it?

    It's because, as I referred to in RJS's post, he's not referring to all immigrants. He says immigrants, but his supports hear "muslims" or "brown people".

    So when people like you turn up to a thread on a terrorist attack and start spouting stuff that shows Islam in a bad light, I'm sceptical of your motives, so I will challenge you as much as possible, since ultimately, I believe that all faiths are able, capable, and do get on, and it is more a function of pressing socio-economic issues that cause the issue.

    There is more than enough anti-islam to go around, so people like me try redress the balance.

    I see the trend of Muslims in Europe being made scapegoats for all sorts of ills as comparable to how Jews were treated in the '20s and early '30s. Only this time, they've learned to use words like 'immigration' rather than just naming who they want to hate on.
  • rjsterryrjsterry Posts: 20,137
    Mr Goo wrote:
    Islam is not just a religion to Muslims it is a strict code to live ones life. Much of it taken from their holy book.
    Maybe just read that back. Do you really think that is particular to Islam? You don't think that a clear moral code is a constituent of pretty much any religion? Granted there are plenty of people (a majority) who profess membership of a religion but are rather selective about which bits of that moral code they should live by, but again, that's pretty universal. Likewise all major religions (and political belief systems) have their minority of fundamentalists.

    As for Islam requiring centuries to adapt to Western values, universal suffrage is still a year away from its centenary. Homosexuality was only de-criminalised 50 years ago with civil partnership and marriage rights only extended in the last few years. I think we can hold off feeling like the pinnacle of civilization just yet.
    1985 Mercian King of Mercia - work in progress (Hah! Who am I kidding?)
    Pinnacle Monzonite

    Liberal metropolitan, remoaner, traitor, "sympathiser", etc.
  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,277
    edited March 2017
    There is more than enough anti-islam to go around, so people like me try redress the balance.

    By over-reacting...

    I'm anti-religion, so I guess that makes me anti-islam by extension. To be fair though, I am also anti-christian, anti-hindu, anti-judaism, or indeed anti- any kind of organised belief system which attempts to corral people into identifiable groups.
  • nickicenickice Posts: 2,439
    I'm not shutting you down mate.

    You just need to understand that that's what you are, and have a think about why that is. Or do you need a safe space where you can be bigoted without being called that?

    This is the thing. People on the right often moan about how they can't talk about islam without being called bigoted, and they come out after a big terrorism attack going "see, Islam,and all religion is bad."

    But they only ever say it in the context of Islam. They use attacks on religion, now that the majorit of the UK isn't religious, as cover for their own islamophobia.

    The right use things like immigration as a vehicle to channel their own bigoted views.

    When Farage says " “If you open your door to uncontrolled immigration from Middle Eastern countries you are inviting in terrorism.” " on Fox news in relation to this attack, when the attacker is from the same county as he is, why do you think he says it?

    It's because, as I referred to in RJS's post, he's not referring to all immigrants. He says immigrants, but his supports hear "muslims" or "brown people".

    So when people like you turn up to a thread on a terrorist attack and start spouting stuff that shows Islam in a bad light, I'm sceptical of your motives, so I will challenge you as much as possible, since ultimately, I believe that all faiths are able, capable, and do get on, and it is more a function of pressing socio-economic issues that cause the issue.

    There is more than enough anti-islam to go around, so people like me try redress the balance.

    I see the trend of Muslims in Europe being made scapegoats for all sorts of ills as comparable to how Jews were treated in the '20s and early '30s. Only this time, they've learned to use words like 'immigration' rather than just naming who they want to hate on.


    You know if you'd actually just said that you didn't see the word 'liberal' and assumed I was talking about everyone and that you made a mistake, that would have been better. Instead you're doubling down most likely out of pride. Let me ask you a question, what are you going to call the real bigots if you use bigot to describe me?


    As for socio-economic issues being the problem, if only that were true. Unfortunately, many of the people who have signed up to ISIS (from the UKp have come from good homes, from well-integrated families (if their family was foreign in origin) and often with university education.

    As for the rest of the immigration talk, I'm not going to go into that as immigration is not something that bothers me (I'm an immigrant myself)
  • rick_chaseyrick_chasey Posts: 55,894 Lives Here
    Imposter wrote:
    There is more than enough anti-islam to go around, so people like me try redress the balance.

    By over-reacting...

    I'm anti-religion, so I guess that makes me anti-islam by extension. To be fair though, I am also anti-christian, anti-hindu, anti-judaism, or indeed anti- any kind of fake, organised belief system which attempts to corral people into identifiable groups.

    So you actively discriminate against people on account of their faith? Against basically anyone who isn't atheist?

    Or do you just not like faith yourself?
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