Smart trainer with seperate power meter

Girth

Hi,
I am looking for a smart trainer that i can hook up to my Stages PM.
What i would like to do is have the Smart trainer use the data from my Stages PM rather than its own PM/algorithm, but still automatically adjust resistance when i hit hills in Zwift.
I know Smart trainers do this when using their own inbuilt PM, but i can't seem to find a conclusive answer that the smart trainer can work 'smartly' whilst hooked up to a separate PM, like Stages.
Any experiences with this setup?

Also, i would like some general advice on Smart trainers.
I am looking for something that can support as far over 1,000 watts as possible and preferably simulate up to 15% gradients, 10% at the very least.
Direct drive appears out of money range, so of the rest the Wahoo KICKR SNAP is nudging it in my mind at the moment. I have read the issues with power readings with the SNAP, but if i can have the full capabilities of a smart trainer running with my Stages PM then those are not relevant.
Max Budget is around £600 mark. Any tips here would be appreciated!

NeXXus

Tacx Bushido or kickr snap. All you do is pair the trainer as a controllable trainer which will also pair it as power, unpair the power part and pair stages

slowbike

Why do you want to use your PM rather than the trainers one?

There have been tests of power measured by both devices - with little difference between them - my own quick test suggested the same (Bkool vs Stages).

The bkool simulator will not allow me to select the Stages PM and keep the Smart Turbo active - it's either/or - the limitation for Zwift will be how Zwift treats the data submitted (although I can envisage a program to sit between the sensors and Zwift that combines what you want to use - someones probably already written it) - but not quite sure what you're hoping to achive above what the turbo's PM already delivers.

For >1000 watts you're better off on a direct drive

markhewitt1978

Girth wrote:

Hi,
I am looking for a smart trainer that i can hook up to my Stages PM.
What i would like to do is have the Smart trainer use the data from my Stages PM rather than its own PM/algorithm, but still automatically adjust resistance when i hit hills in Zwift.
I know Smart trainers do this when using their own inbuilt PM, but i can't seem to find a conclusive answer that the smart trainer can work 'smartly' whilst hooked up to a separate PM, like Stages.
Any experiences with this setup?

You can do this no problem. The Stages will not connect to the trainer as such - rather in Zwift you pair your Stages as the power source, then the trainer as 'controllable trainer' and that'll work fine - for all except ERG mode in workouts.

Also, i would like some general advice on Smart trainers.
I am looking for something that can support as far over 1,000 watts as possible and preferably simulate up to 15% gradients, 10% at the very least.
Direct drive appears out of money range, so of the rest the Wahoo KICKR SNAP is nudging it in my mind at the moment. I have read the issues with power readings with the SNAP, but if i can have the full capabilities of a smart trainer running with my Stages PM then those are not relevant.
Max Budget is around £600 mark. Any tips here would be appreciated!

Kickr Snap would be a good choice there.

Girth

As i have a power meter already it just seems like the common sense thing to do.
I have read that the accuracy on trainers is close, but also that there are sometimes spikes or sometimes delays with the trainer power meters. As I have a lot of data from the Stages PM already and it's already on my bike, it just seems like the common sense thing to do to keep everything consistent.

I will take a closer look at the Bushido, cheers Nexxus.
Also, i need to take a look at the Tacx Genius Smart Trainer.

Seems like Kickr Snap is leading the way, cheers for comments, Mark.

Are there any decent direct drive ones around this price range? I have seen the Tacx Flux Direct Drive, but its a bit more dosh at £700.

Pulsatingstar

Slowbike wrote:

Why do you want to use your PM rather than the trainers one?

There have been tests of power measured by both devices - with little difference between them - my own quick test suggested the same (Bkool vs Stages).

Not always. I have a Tacx Vortex and a Quarq and if I have them both reading somewhere at the same time there can be up to 80w difference which is huge. Its also variable depending on the power you are putting out and majorly the cadence (slower cadence seeems to lessen the error margin).

With the gap being so big its a nightmare trying to follow a workout plan on a smart trainer as you cant do the numbers. You can do whats been suggested with the pairing but as already mentioned that wont get you ERG mode in a workout which is most the point for me of having the smart trainer.

Girth

ERG mode on a smart trainer is used for structured training to power, correct?
So the trainer adjusts the resistance to a defined power range that is the target for the interval or whatever it is I am doing?

So, if my understanding is correct, I can hook up the Stages PM for Zwift races or my own training or tootling about in Zwift. But i also have the option to disconnect my Stages PM and use the Smart trainers own PM if i want to use ERG mode?

markhewitt1978

Girth wrote:

ERG mode on a smart trainer is used for structured training to power, correct?
So the trainer adjusts the resistance to a defined power range that is the target for the interval or whatever it is I am doing?

So, if my understanding is correct, I can hook up the Stages PM for Zwift races or my own training or tootling about in Zwift. But i also have the option to disconnect my Stages PM and use the Smart trainers own PM if i want to use ERG mode?

Spot on.

Girth

Fantastic.
Right, just need to decide now.
I've just noticed that somehow i still have platinum membership at Wiggle.
This makes the KickR a bit cheaper, but also brings the Tacx Flux Direct Drive down to £600. Hmmmmmm

slowbike

time to check out their reviews then ....

Girth

yup, seems to be very well reviewed.
It looks like it Is between the KickR Snap, Tacx Flux Smart, Tacx Busido or Tacx Genius.

I also need to remember they all have different levels of dog house time attached as well :-(

nicklong

Reconditioned V1 Kickr models are for sale on the Wahoo site for £649...

vinnymarsden

Girth,

I have had the Bushido...and whilst I cant speak for all Tacx smarts... it wasn't lifelike at all...swapped, eventually to a Kickr....all i would say is WOW!! The difference is night and day...and the recon ones at 650...total deal...I always look at, and "justify" my spending by thinking of the things i don't do...lol drinking/smoking...or any other expensive hobby...and also once spent, the money has gone..and you own a decent bit of kit..no brainer..drop the mother-load on a Kickr..with Trainer Road...you WONT be disappointed!!!

markhewitt1978

The Tacx Neo and Elite Drivo are also very well regarded. I have to agree with the Bushido, not that great and had the 'riding through mud' feeling to it.

For a while I've thought that with trainers you should either go budget e.g. Tacx Flow, or do it properly with the likes of the Neo, Kickr, Drivo. The mid range stuff isn't good value IMO.

Girth

Ooooh the recon ones are tempting, I think I would prefer that option to the Snap or other mid range option, the 1 year warranty is reassuring.
Think we might have a winner! .....assuming if I can resist the urge to just buy a new one and have hell unleashed in the house when she spots it in the garage and looks it up on google :shock:

booter

If you're in the market for a direct mount Kickr, I'm selling a lightly used v1. Reason for sale is upgrade to Kickr v2! PM me for details if you're interested.

I've also owned the Elite Drivo. It was nothing compared to the experience of using the Kickr, which affords a much more refined (and enjoyable) experience. Definitely worth the extra.

proto

Girth wrote:

Ooooh the recon ones are tempting, I think I would prefer that option to the Snap or other mid range option, the 1 year warranty is reassuring.
Think we might have a winner! .....assuming if I can resist the urge to just buy a new one and have hell unleashed in the house when she spots it in the garage and looks it up on google :shock:

I bought a refurbished one from Wahoo a few weeks go. Box had been opened but the unit itself looked brand new. mint condition, no a mark on it. Cassette looked new too. One year warranty and only £650 delivered.
PS much better riding experience than my Bushido, but a bit noisy.

vinnymarsden

Girth,

Let us know what you went for mate??

Cheers
Vinny

Girth

Thanks for the offer Booter, but I am slowly succumbing to the charms of a brand new Wahoo Kickr to be honest.

I have been round and round with this, but a few things have swung it the Kickr's way.
I was surprised to find that i am still a platinum member on Wiggle, which brings it under £900.
I have a birthday coming, plus a hefty refund from Virgin trains for a messy trip yesterday, so i think i have all but justified it in my tiny mind.
I just think that if i am going to get involved with Zwift and Trainerroad, I don't really want any sacrifices, no matter how small.
I am quite a big rider so reasonably powerful and ride some steep roads, so i would really like the turbo to match that or get as close as possible to it.
It's a chunk of money, and i will get in bother, but biking is my one and only 'thing', so sod it.

niblue

I am looking for a smart trainer that i can hook up to my Stages PM.
What i would like to do is have the Smart trainer use the data from my Stages PM rather than its own PM/algorithm, but still automatically adjust resistance when i hit hills in Zwift.

I use a 4iiii power meter and a Tacx T2240 smart trainer and that's exactly what I do. In Zwift you can choose what power source to use so I have it set to use the power meter (I also have it use the power meter for cadence) but still have the T2240 running as the smart trainer.

I did some tests on the power readings from the power meter and the turbo and they were reasonable close, however it seems sensible to use the same power measurement device indoors as I do outdoors - for consistency.

vinnymarsden

Re the last post....
I was under the impression that Zwift DIDN'T allow PM to control the trainer? I have a Kickr, and use PerfRo for that very reason..my Stages is controlling the Kickr and it seems much more reliable.
If this can be done in Zwift, or in fact The Sufferfest App I would be very interested to hear how it's done.
Cheers
Vinny

niblue

was under the impression that Zwift DIDN'T allow PM to control the trainer? I have a Kickr, and use PerfRo for that very reason..my Stages is controlling the Kickr and it seems much more reliable.
If this can be done in Zwift, or in fact The Sufferfest App I would be very interested to hear how it's done.

The PM doesn't control the trainer as such- Zwift just uses the power readings from it instead of from the Turbo. The resistance on the turbo changes based on the gradient in Zwift.

Although having said that - when I'm doing the FTP builder workouts the resistance does get set based on the target power level and that seems to work fine whether I've got Zwift taking power readings from the PM or from the turbo.

I've switched between using the PM or the turbo as a power source and so far haven't noticed any difference in the way Zwift works.

markhewitt1978

VinnyMarsden wrote:

Re the last post....
I was under the impression that Zwift DIDN'T allow PM to control the trainer? I have a Kickr, and use PerfRo for that very reason..my Stages is controlling the Kickr and it seems much more reliable.
If this can be done in Zwift, or in fact The Sufferfest App I would be very interested to hear how it's done.
Cheers
Vinny

A power meter can't 'control' a trainer. Zwift does that.

The only thing that doesn't work with external PM is ERG mode.

vinnymarsden

Mark,
In PerfPro it specifically says power meter controls trainer, as far as I'm aware that's what happens, I'm not sure how mind, but if you know different, please enlighten me, I'm reaching point of deciding which app to use as well as PerfPro and the Sufferfest app seems most stable.
I see you are very knowledgable on trainers etc....
What's your set up Mark?
Cheers
Vinny

Man Of Lard

The Powermeter merely provides the data for the software to control the trainer. It could equally be supplied as a virtual power calculation (of questionable validity)... PerfPro is glossing over that.

markhewitt1978

tbh I have no idea what a PerfPro is so maybe it does? But usually the power meter provides an input to the app, then the app controls the trainer. The power meter doesn't 'control' the trainer, as how would it do that? All power meters do is output power data.

Myself I use a Tacx Neo connected via ANT+ to a PC. I use power data from the Neo.

penski

If I am correct with my understanding, as of 3rd May 2017, Zwift now allows ERG whilst using smart trainer with a power meter:

BETA: Power meter + Smart Trainer ERG mode. Zwift will make an attempt to control your ERG enabled smart trainer now even if you've paired a separate power meter. For best results it's recommended that both devices are calibrated beforehand. You can simply uncheck the "Use ERG mode" checkbox when selecting your workout for the old behavior.

supermurph09

Resurrecting this thread.

Kit: Tacx flow smart, Stages, Wahoo Bolt.

If I sync a workout from training peaks onto my BOLT and then put it in ERG mode is the power being shown and recorded coming from my Stages or Tacx?

If it’s the TACX what’s the best way to have my workouts using Stages power but being able to have resistance control?

When doing 40s at high power 20s recovery it’s impossible to manually alter the trainer, the ERG mode does this nicely including setting the target power but my feeling is the power being shown and therefore recorded is from the TACX. I want that functionality but power shown and recorded from Stages.

Appreciate any help.