kickr signal issues - please help

redvision

Help!

I am waiting for a response from wahoo but hoped that someone one here may have some advice.

Used my kickr for the second time tonight and the signal keeps dropping.
I have tried both bluetooth and ant+. I have tried using several different devices (android phones, ipad, iphone, laptop and pc) and have used 3 different ant+ dongles. Everytime the same thing happens. After 15minutes the signal drops, and then it keeps dropping every 2 or 3 mins.

I have tried using different apps (wahoo, trainerroad, bkool) but the issue is always there.

The firmware is up to date and the spin downs have been done in accordance with the guidelines.

Like i say i am waiting for wahoo but this is the third wahoo product i have had since the start of December (after two faulty kickr snaps) and i'm at my wits end. I was so excited about this kickr, and yet, second training session on it and nothing but problems.

Has anyone suffered the same issues? Is there a fix or should i return it?

Thanks

dabber

USB extension lead so Ant+ dongle is close to the trainer.

redvision

Dabber wrote:

USB extension lead so Ant+ dongle is close to the trainer.

Sorry, i should have said, this was one of the things i tried. Tried varying how close it was to the kickr, even managed to get it within a foot, but it made no difference.

markhewitt1978

Is it after a particularly hard effort? As there has been some reported issues along these lines.

redvision

markhewitt1978 wrote:

Is it after a particularly hard effort? As there has been some reported issues along these lines.

Yes, although not all the time. Wahoo suggested i use their app for a light spin workout. Did as they said, and almost bang on 15mins the signal dropped.

It's almost like the whole kickr switches to stand by or something after 15mins and then the connection doesn't stabilise when it reconnects.

Very very ****** off tbh.

redvision

So quick update, spent the evening on to wahoo support and got nowhere really. They think it is an issue with the signal card as the bluetooth is dropping which is then causing the ant+ to drop as well. I can't imagine how a bluetooth signal drop could cause the ANT+ to drop as well, but from the data logs i had to send them this is their diagnosis.

They have offered to send me a replacement signal card but as the unit is brand new I think i will just send the unit back.
Not sure whether to accept an exchange or ask for a full refund.
This is the third Wahoo smart trainer i will have returned in a month. Is this bad luck or a reflection of their smart trainers?

ryan_w-2

My Kickr Snap has been faultless....

Buy one of those and save yourself £500!

redvision

Ryan_W wrote:

My Kickr Snap has been faultless....

Buy one of those and save yourself £500!

No chance, i returned two of those in December as both had faults.

wongataa

redvision wrote:

So quick update, spent the evening on to wahoo support and got nowhere really. They think it is an issue with the signal card as the bluetooth is dropping which is then causing the ant+ to drop as well. I can't imagine how a bluetooth signal drop could cause the ANT+ to drop as well, but from the data logs i had to send them this is their diagnosis.

ANT+ and Blutooth both use the 2.4GHz frequency spectrum. I bet both broadcasts are controlled by exactly the same parts on the trainer, hence if one fails they both fail.

redvision wrote:

They have offered to send me a replacement signal card but as the unit is brand new I think i will just send the unit back.
Not sure whether to accept an exchange or ask for a full refund.

It is a new trainer I would just send it back to the seller if it was faulty. I wouln't want to replace parts on something that should be working fine as it is new. If it was an old device I would be more up for changing parts.

redvision

wongataa wrote:

It is a new trainer I would just send it back to the seller if it was faulty. I wouln't want to replace parts on something that should be working fine as it is new. If it was an old device I would be more up for changing parts.

Yeah that's what i'm thinking. Just frustrating.
And like i say, its a straight choice between a refund or an exchange, just not sure if i will be able to trust a wahoo smart trainer again :?

fat daddy

redvision wrote:

a reflection of their smart trainers?

no ... I think its a reflection of your bad luck ....3 trainers ? ... are you setting them up next to mega high power microwave transmiters ? .... or maybe you have super electro powers but haven't tried on the tight pants yet.

Send it back .. buy a Neo and see how long before youkill that one ?

redvision

fat daddy wrote:

no ... I think its a reflection of your bad luck ....3 trainers ? ... are you setting them up next to mega high power microwave transmiters ?

No. And as part of the checks Wahoo got me to do i had to turn off anything which could be causing interference, one by one.

Send it back .. buy a Neo and see how long before youkill that one ?

The neo is too expensive, plus there are widespread reports of issues with that as well.

markhewitt1978

There are widespread reports of failures with *every* trainer.

redvision

markhewitt1978 wrote:

There are widespread reports of failures with *every* trainer.

Yeah I guess. Good point.

slowbike

a repeatable fault like 15 minutes then drop out suggests that the fault lies in the kit being used - rule out the receiver by using an alternative and it's in the transmitter.

Wifi uses 2.4Ghz and Microwaves are similar at 2.45Ghz - so the frequency is quite cluttered - if you're in a built up area then it's possible that something around you is causing the issue.
Years ago - in Portsmouth - there was computer interferance - it was eventually tracked down to the Naval radars at the top of the hill.
Obviously you can do little to change external interferance - other than perhaps moving the turbo to a different location - the otherside of the house - or at a mates or family members house - just to test obviously!

redvision

OK, so I have set the kickr up in the garage. Nothing in there apart from two electric sockets, a light and now the kickr with the Bluetooth wahoo cadence sensor, and an ipad.

Started a wahoo app workout, did a spindown after 10 mins (as wahoo advise) and everything was good. 3 mins later resistance changed to pretty much solid and it lost bluetooth connection to the ipad.

I have had a reply from the online store is was bought from but they say as it's wahoo they can't authorise a return for a refund until wahoo have confirmed its faulty. Can they do that?? Will the sales of goods act cover me if wahoo continue to try & get me to install a new signal card?

slowbike

It's not Sale of Goods act - it's Consumer Rights (if bought after Sep 2015) - it's nothing to do with Wahoo either - it's the shop you have a contract with. The shop can take it up with Wahoo.

I'd request a return the item for a full refund due to faulty product - as it's (I asume) less than 6 months old it's assumed it was faulty at point of sale.

If you bought it using a card then contact the card issuer and inform them you have a disupute open with the retailer - don't forget to tell the retailer that too - card issuers have greater powers of pursation over reluctant retailers.

redvision

Slowbike wrote:

It's not Sale of Goods act - it's Consumer Rights (if bought after Sep 2015) - it's nothing to do with Wahoo either - it's the shop you have a contract with. The shop can take it up with Wahoo.

I'd request a return the item for a full refund due to faulty product - as it's (I asume) less than 6 months old it's assumed it was faulty at point of sale.

If you bought it using a card then contact the card issuer and inform them you have a disupute open with the retailer - don't forget to tell the retailer that too - card issuers have greater powers of pursation over reluctant retailers.

Thanks for this info.
Yes, it was bought on xmas eve and has been used twice since it was delivered.
I really didn't want to have to use the law unless absolutely necessary but i am getting nowhere with wahoo or the store so i think it might be time.

slowbike

redvision wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

It's not Sale of Goods act - it's Consumer Rights (if bought after Sep 2015) - it's nothing to do with Wahoo either - it's the shop you have a contract with. The shop can take it up with Wahoo.

I'd request a return the item for a full refund due to faulty product - as it's (I asume) less than 6 months old it's assumed it was faulty at point of sale.

If you bought it using a card then contact the card issuer and inform them you have a disupute open with the retailer - don't forget to tell the retailer that too - card issuers have greater powers of pursation over reluctant retailers.

Thanks for this info.
Yes, it was bought on xmas eve and has been used twice since it was delivered.
I really didn't want to have to use the law unless absolutely necessary but i am getting nowhere with wahoo or the store so i think it might be time.

Write & Copy Email to them stating that you're rejecting the item under the Consumer Rights Act due to it being faulty . Explain the faults you've found with the unit and therefore you require a full refund (you'll need to check on postage). Give them a cut off date, beyond which you'll take legal advice.

Keep copies of all correspondance, be curteous, don't offer opinion - just fact.

Again - if you bought this using a card - contact the card issuer too as they may well have joint liabiliy.

Just to re-iterate - your contract is with the retailer you bought from - not the distributor or manufacturer. It's the retailer that's liable - they do not require permission from Wahoo to accept a return - this is just their way of stalling you (or misunderstanding of the law if you want to be generous).

Whilst it shouldn't matter who you write to, I find it best to contact the boss - the MD, the owner - don't expect it will be handled by them, but it gets the right attention. If directed to the sales guy/girl then you won't always get the immeadiate response required. You may need to look up the CEO/MD if it's a big company.

Above all - don't be fobbed off - it's faulty (as in you're following the standard instructions and it's not working as described) - you're entitled to a refund.

Have a read of this:
http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... -my-rights

dyrlac

Hmm. Was suffering the same thing in Zwift using my Ant+ Pioneer PM: a dropout every 15m or so. Had a similar experience with my new kickr this morning on it's first proper run-out (connected via Ant+). Convinced it is some kind of localised interference (and probably the WAP I have just behind my turbo, needed solely so my phone can control my Zwifting, computer is hardwired to the powerline network). I have read elsewhere that using a signal-boosted USB extension (sometimes called an "active" extension) for the Ant+ dongle can help. They're less than a tenner, so I'm going to give this a go and will report back.

[But agree with the legal position expressed above. Retailer's position is ludicrous]

slowbike

Dyrlac wrote:

[But agree with the legal position expressed above. Retailer's position is ludicrous]

Unfortunately, most retaillers take the stance of SEP (Sombody Elses Problem) - despite the SoG act and CR putting the responsibility squarely on their shoulders.
I don't mind getting the manufacturer involved in trying to resolve the issue - with tech these days it's not unusual for a firmware upgrade to be required - but at no point do they need "permission" from the manufacturer to refund or replace the item - they're just covering themselves to ensure the manufacturer covers their costs.

CRAIGO5000

Just to add.

You're not using another recording device such as a Garmin aswell are you? Wahoo have confirmed with me that even on the ANT protocol, the Garmin hijacks the signal and interferes. The only computer that leaves a clean pass-through signal is their ELEMNT.

I kept getting drop out on my Garmin but not Zwift. Yours is the other way around but still plausible.

markhewitt1978

Here's a response from Wahoo which was posted in the Zwift Riders facebook group

Chip Hawkins Hi Guys,

Really sorry you are having issues. We are investigating with Zwift but so far have not found the smoking gun. There do appear to be a few different things being lumped together.

1) Something is causing the resistance to go away during rides: This one is the most troubling and unfortunately we have not been able to reproduce it yet in the office. We were primarily testing ANT in relation to this problem, from reading here it looks like it's definitely happening with BT and it appears iPad Pros. We're going to try to reproduce it today on our dyno with an iPad pro.
We have identified that when it happens the KICKR is somehow taken out of simulation mode and Zwift is sending grade commands that are being kicked back as error incorrect mode. Zwift is looking at handling this error and putting it back in sim mode. This should lead to a drop in resistance of a few seconds that will recover when the mode is restored by Zwift while we continue to try to capture in our debug environment and understand the root cause.

2) BT drops are occurring when using Zwift on iOS: BT on iOS is generally very stable and connections are extremely robust. We're going to keep working with Zwift to try and understand what's going on here. I've seen iPad pros mentioned several times which we haven't tested much with and also BT headphones. Because the iOS device shares a single radio for Wifi, BT Classic, and BTLE it is possible that they are struggling when doing multiple connections at once. We are working to ensure that our firmware and Zwift handle disconnects gracefully with a short loss in reported data being the worst part. We are also working to understand why we are seeing disconnects in the first place. We have not been able to reproduce this in our office yet either.

3) ANT drops occur when using Zwift PC and KICKR: ANT+ is locked to a single frequency, so much more susceptible to RF interference, especially in areas with lots of Wifi or BT traffic. Because it is a low power lossy protocol in the presence of lots of noise packets are lost. Anytime 8 packets are missed in a row the radio considers itself "disconnected" and goes into a search mode to resync with the transmitting radio. This presents itself as reported power going to zero on Zwift while it reconnects. It is possible to use the receiving radio (ANT dongle) in scan mode where the radio stays in receive mode 100% of the time and receives every message from every ANT device in the area. This can eliminate disconnects and likely the need for the extension cable and placing ANT dongles right next to the KICKR radio, but is a pretty major rewrite of the ANT implementation on Zwift's end. If you have the ability to set the Wifi channel on your router it is also helpful to set it to a fixed channel on the low end of the spectrum like channel 3. This will keep your computer and iOS devices from communicating over wifi on the same frequency that ANT uses. If you are in an area with lots of Wifi traffic this might not be possible, but can definitely help.

I'm going to work with our customer service group to make sure best practices and FAQs on our support site are up to date and useful to help with troubleshooting. Some of the information I read posted from our support group is not entirely wrong, but also not entirely right. It's not necessary to unplug KICKRs for 5 minutes to reset them. If you finish a workout the KICKR will remain in the mode it was left until 20 minutes have elapsed without the flywheel turning. Zwift can set the mode upon startup, so it isn't necessary to unplug and reply the KICKR to reset it. If you do want to reset the KICKR you need to unplug it for about 30 seconds to ensure the power drains from the capacitors and memory is cleared.

We're hoping to release new firmware next week hopefully in conjunction with a Zwift update that will minimize the side effects of the disconnects we're seeing while we continue to investigate the root cause.

thanks,

Chip from Wahoo

redvision

Thanks for all the advice guys.
Finally CRC have agreed to have the kickr back (being collected on Monday) and will provide a refund in full when they receive it.

CRAIGO5000 wrote:

You're not using another recording device such as a Garmin aswell are you?

Nope, haven't used the garmin at all when trying the kickr. When I first contacted wahoo this was one of the first things they asked.

Speaking of wahoo, even though they hadn't offered any type of assistance other than advising I try a few different devices, using only ant+ or Bluetooth, using only the wahoo app etc, they closed my f-ing ticket yesterday! Tried ringing and they told me that I needed to raise a new ticket. Have honestly never received such poor customer service.

Anyway, like I say, it's being collected on Monday and hopefully should have a refund by the end of the week.

Thanks again for all the help and advice.

CRAIGO5000

To be fair to Wahoo it seems they've been bloody brilliant in terms of customer service! I guess your ticket got closed by mistake? Either way it's being returned.

It seems you have something in your local environment that is very strong in its interference. Unfortunately, any smart trainer is going to cause you issues until that is found and rectified.

When I was training indoors with my power meter, the microwave oven when on would knock out the power signal which is pretty worrying! Doesn't seem to with power from the KickR but these are the types of things you're going to have to find.

I'd start by ensuring all your local wifi devices are connected solely on the 5G frequency band. This leaves Ant+ a better chance at surviving within the 2.4G band.

If Bluetooth is still being knocked off on several different trainers then something really is amiss.

Good luck in finding the issue!

redvision

CRAIGO5000 wrote:

It seems you have something in your local environment that is very strong in its interference. Unfortunately, any smart trainer is going to cause you issues until that is found and rectified.

Well I think I can now categorically say it's the kickr. I borrowed a tacx flow from a friend this morning. Figured as the kickr isn't going back until Monday I might as well see if it was interference or as I suspected, a fault with the kickr. Set both up in the same room this afternoon, connected to the laptop.
The flow didn't drop signal once on an hours ride on bkool. Switched to the kickr & within the first 5 mins it had dropped twice.

Anyway, think now I will replace it with a flow. Given that they are a fraction of the price of the kickr I was really impressed with it.

markhewitt1978

Either that or the other way and go Neo?

redvision

Just an update folks, kickr was returned and full refund received.
Interestingly when they contacted me after receiving it back they told me they had received a large number of kickrs returned over the last few weeks with exactly the same connection problems i experienced, so I am assuming there was a bad batch or something.

Anyway, thanks again for all the help and advice - it was far better than wahoo who simply refused/couldn't be arsed to help!

slowbike

excellent - glad the Retailler behaved in accordance with the law without too much hassle ...