Changing group set

thehighwayman

Hi I changed the group set on my step dad's cube palaton from 9 speed to 10 speed 105 and for some reason I cant get the rear mech to change nicely new cable inners new 10 speed cassette and chain 5700 shifters as well 10 speed any help would be brilliant cheers

Bobbinogs

Just to be clear, did you change the shifters (levers) to ST 5700? Also, what rear mech are you using, although that should be less of an issue?

thehighwayman

Yeah as far as I'm aware they are 5700 through out the cable gets fed from the underside in to the shifters and it's a 5700 10 speed rear 105 mech as well medium cage

imposter2.0

can you define 'nicely' in slightly more practical terms?

Bobbinogs

OK, no reason for that not to work then. As above, can you explain exactly how the GS does not "change nicely"? Does it "change nicely" between a couple of gears but then goes out across the block, etc???

If it is new kit all round and you did not kink the cable then, once the basic tension is right and then tuned for one gear...,it should be sweet for all gears. If in doubt, undo the cable at the rear mech and start again. There are some good guides on Youtube.

thehighwayman

Sorry guys was at work so it won't shift up from the small cog and when I apply the tension to the barrel adjuster it goes up lovely through the gears but then won't come back down through slacken the cable to get it to shift down through the gears nicely then it won't go up through again going bloody mad trying to understand what the problem is it a bit wierd as when I replaced his cables before on his sora that was the same he hasn't hit the hanger either but I don't know how I can check I'd it is bent

The Rookie

Try the description again using recognisable terms please!

After going DOWN the gears from the smallest cog (HIGHEST gear) when you come to change back UP it doesn't shift as expected? Is that correct?

Is the cable slack at the rear mech? Could just be the indexing is a bit tight and just needs a click or tow (not turns).

The fact you had the same on his Sora strongly suggests operator error.

thehighwayman

Yes that is correct and I'm pretty sure the barrel adjuster turns not ckicks and no the cable is not slack and how can it be operator error if indexing works by 1 click at a time cheers for your help though

Bobbinogs

I would start by disconnecting the gear cable at the RD and then pushing it a few inches out of the shifter so that you can hold it at that end. Then gently move the cable back and fro and see if it moves freely, it should glide smoothly. If it doesn't then you need to sort that. Whilst the cable is disconnected, just try flexing the RD, that should also be nice and springy and be able to move freely when you push...and then return when you don't.

Assuming all is well, it then sounds like you need to start again at the indexing which is just as well because you have disconnected the cable :-) . There are loads of guides on Youtube but look out for things like Parktools, GCN, etc. Here is one from Bikeradar/Parktools which looks fairly easy to follow:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=On57Tl9qYRM

As above, the fact that you have also had the problem before and have since replaced all the parts makes it sound like operator error in some way.

thehighwayman

Cheers for nice and productive comments thanks for the advice it's only his cube I've had hassle with my cube gtc and my Scott I index really easily so just thought I would ask see if I has missed anything by swapping his sora groupset to a 105 one cheers again

The Rookie

The barrel adjuster should click on the detents, if its not then it could be 'walking' out of adjustment. How can you move one click if you have no clicks on the adjuster?

Sorry to ask, but do you really understand what you are doing?

1/3 of a turn of the barrel adjuster (usually 2 clicks as there are six per rotation) can send a good indexing bad.

thehighwayman

Ok rookie yes I do know what I'm doing the barrel adjuster wasn't clicking and I know by applying turns or (clicking ) to the barrel adjuster puts tension on the cable their for getting the right tension on the cable for the idexing to work properly

lesfirth

thehighwayman wrote:

Ok rookie yes I do know what I'm doing the barrel adjuster wasn't clicking and I know by applying turns or (clicking ) to the barrel adjuster puts tension on the cable their for getting the right tension on the cable for the idexing to work properly

Well , that is not my understanding. The barrel adjuster is used to place the rear mech. in the correct position relative to the cogs in the cassette.The only thing that puts tension on the cable is the spring in the rear mech.

If I am not correct ,someone please enlighten me.

cooldad

Nope, the limit screws are used to put the mech in the right place. The spring in the mech tensions the cable, and the barrel adjuster is used to fine tune the whole set up.

smoggysteve

This is what I would do.

Since you say the cable has no tension in it in the highest gear;

Remove the cable from the rear mech and while keeping the inner cable under tension with your hand, press the small lever of the shifter as though you are going up the gears so by makng sure the cable is at its start point inside the shifter.

At this point, can you feed the cable through the shifter as though you were going to remove it from the bike?

If no the cable could be misfed in the ratchet. You need to sort this out first before proceeding.

If yes, while keeping the tension on slightly, reattach it to the rear mech. Make sure the mech is inline with the smallest cog before tightening by adjusting the limit screw. One other thing to remember is to wind the indexing adjuster all the way in then back off 4 full turns before finally tightenig up the allan key nut. This should make the cable have a small amount of tension in it even when the shifter is in its top gear setting. It also gives enough play for adjustment.

Another thing that could be causing issues is if when you replaced the cables, if the outer cable is too short and the curve as it bends round in a loop is too tight the inner can be kept under tension by friction in the outer. This is what happens if there is no tension in the cable at all from the shifter. It can also make the cable end slip from its seat inside the shifter and when you ratchet it down the gears the cable does nothing for a few clicks and you lose half the gears.

Other things to check are the feed guide under the bottom bracket. Did you replace all the cable end gromits? Was the outer cable fed all the way into the shifter with an cable end gromit. I have encountered all these issues on badly shifting gears before and all can cause the issues you are having.

thehighwayman

Cheers smoggysteve the next thing I was going to change was the outer gear cabe at the rear mech as I think the loop is to tight and it's doing pritty much what you've described losening gears before moving up the mech and thanks for taking the time to comment cheers

lesfirth

cooldad wrote:

Nope, the limit screws are used to put the mech in the right place. The spring in the mech tensions the cable, and the barrel adjuster is used to fine tune the whole set up.

All together now .... Oh no they dont! ........ I did not hear you! ..... The limit screws ,you could have guessed it... limit the movement of the mech. at either end of its travel and just how do the barrel adjusters achieve this magic of "fine tuning the whole set up"? They do it by ...positioning the mech relative to the cogs on the cassette.

You will be glad to know this is a once only performance and I will not do another act. We will have to differ in future.
Have a nice day.

whyamihere

lesfirth wrote:

cooldad wrote:

Nope, the limit screws are used to put the mech in the right place. The spring in the mech tensions the cable, and the barrel adjuster is used to fine tune the whole set up.

All together now .... Oh no they dont! ........ I did not hear you! ..... The limit screws ,you could have guessed it... limit the movement of the mech. at either end of its travel and just how do the barrel adjusters achieve this magic of "fine tuning the whole set up"? They do it by ...positioning the mech relative to the cogs on the cassette.

You will be glad to know this is a once only performance and I will not do another act. We will have to differ in future.
Have a nice day.

Sorry, but no, you're wrong on this one. You set the initial position using one of the limit screws (usually the H one, but there are a few old Shimano MTB mechs where the initial position is set by the L screw). The other screw is indeed just to limit the movement. The shifter then pulls a set amount of cable. The barrel adjuster is used to ensure that the correct cable tension is present with the mech in its initial position, which allows the shifter to move the mech to the correct position.

smoggysteve

Right. If you were to put on a new mech right out of the box onto a bike it's firstly going to need aligning to the setup. You do this to the smallest cog and you adjust the H screw until it is aligned as close to perfect under the smallest cog. You can then by hand swing out the derailleur and see how far out it travels. You can manually align it to the largest cog and adjust the L screw until it moves no further out than that gear. That is the screws set. Once you have put it all together you test the tension of the shifter goes all the way from top to bottom and back again with good solid clicks. If you need to adjust the screws do it now. Stick chain on. Do a few tests up and down fine tuning the indexing and if you need to move the L a bit in out out to prevent the chain coming off do so and that should be it.

Monty Dog

Back to the OP's issue, I'd suspect cable install, making sure that the outer ends are cut square and clean with no burrs and that the liner is flared (pointy tool) at each end.

cougie

Have you messed around with the Gear lever before installing? It needs to be in the highest (hardest) Gear position before tensioning the cable.


If it isn't then it wont work.

And i think mr firth is wrong with his statements too.

smoggysteve

cougie wrote:

Have you messed around with the Gear lever before installing? It needs to be in the highest (hardest) Gear position before tensioning the cable.


If it isn't then it wont work.

And i think mr firth is wrong with his statements too.

If the lever is not in the highest gear pre installation the gear cable won't feed through the ratchet mechanism so it's near impossible to get wrong

thehighwayman

Cheers guys for your advice all sorted now changed rear outer made it slightly longer all is good