Carbon rims

Banno

Hi all,

How do carbon wheels perform against alloy in terms of braking and rim wear with canti brakes for racing?
Also will the pads wear through a heck of a lot quicker?
I've heard that they brake much 'cleaner' with not so much grime build up.

I'm thinking of getting a pair of the generic Novatec/Gigantex clinchers.

Thanks

fenix

Carbon braking isn't as good - especially in the wet.

If you change wheels - alloy to carbon - you'll need to change pads too - as you wont want bits of alloy in the pads wearing your carbon.

Banno

Thanks
Initially it will just be one set of clinchers for racing and training, so no swapping pads needed.

I'm wondering if the braking is good enough? Or will I be sh*tting myself every time I go into a wooded downhill section? :shock:

Banno

Most 'team' riders I see running canti's still use carbon, but they don't have to worry about their kit so much I guess.
Is a set of carbon's likely to last say a couple of seasons?

VamP

Carbon clinchers are a completely pointless upgrade. If you're going for carbon make it tubulars, you'll get more speed from running tubular tyres than from the rim material. Also they are lighter and more robust.

Braking is adequate with cantis, but I have destroyed carbon rims before by wearing my pads down to metal before - some types of mud are a lot more abrasive than others.

Banno

Thanks VamP
I bought the frameset with no wheels. So initially this is just a set of wheels, not an upgrade.
My thinking is also, if I then do go tubulars, then it would be a lot easier swapping wheels as I wouldn't need to change pads.
There is a chance though, that I might not go tubulars, so wonder if it would be 'safer' to just get alloy rims.

roger_merriman

Banno wrote:

Thanks
Initially it will just be one set of clinchers for racing and training, so no swapping pads needed.

I'm wondering if the braking is good enough? Or will I be sh*tting myself every time I go into a wooded downhill section? :shock:

canti's are fairly awful any way, compared to any other commonly used rim brakes, the only way i've managed to get mine not to make myself poo in wooded downhills is by fitting posh pads, Kool Stops at which point the braking is up to the heady heights of being poor vs downright terrifying awful.

So I suspect that carbon rims may not make much difference in performance!

Banno

roger merriman wrote:

canti's are fairly awful any way, compared to any other commonly used rim brakes, the only way i've managed to get mine not to make myself poo in wooded downhills is by fitting posh pads, Kool Stops at which point the braking is up to the heady heights of being poor vs downright terrifying awful.

So I suspect that carbon rims may not make much difference in performance!

LeePaton

Canti's are amazing.

Cross is all about carrying as much momentum as possible*. Canti's are amazing at not really working at all so achieve this greatly.



*The V.Rossi method of leg out braking I've found to help when you kinda need to stop.

fenix

last cross world champs I saw the field was split 50/50 cantis and disks. Maybe some courses suit them better than others ?

Supernaut

Fenix wrote:

last cross world champs I saw the field was split 50/50 cantis and disks. Maybe some courses suit them better than others ?

Last year was the big transition - this time around it'll be close to 10:90 canti:disc
Carbon works ok with cantis as a braking surface but it's not as good as alloy by any stretch.

Banno

Supernaut wrote:

Carbon works ok with cantis as a braking surface but it's not as good as alloy by any stretch.

I'm gonna be cr*p so wont be carrying much speed I wouldn't have thought!

stumpmagnet

Banno go look on the Hunt wheels site they have there alloy disc wheels which get great reviews and are around 1500g thats what im aiming for but disc for me

Banno

Stumpmagnet wrote:

Banno go look on the Hunt wheels site they have there alloy disc wheels which get great reviews and are around 1500g thats what im aiming for but disc for me

Their Race Aero Wide's look nice.
31deep, 24wide, SP spokes, 1480g, £419
Rim brakes for me obviously

But carbon's just look soooo sexy!

trek_dan

All my canti's ranging in price from Shorty Ultimates on my race bike to generic unbranded 'frog legs' style ones on my commuter work brilliantly (even when running carbon tubs) I can never understand why people moan about them not working, I can only assume they (or their bike shop) must be incapable of setting them up properly.

Banno

trek_dan wrote:

All my canti's ranging in price from Shorty Ultimates on my race bike to generic unbranded 'frog legs' style ones on my commuter work brilliantly (even when running carbon tubs) I can never understand why people moan about them not working, I can only assume they (or their bike shop) must be incapable of setting them up properly.

I can't wait to get mine all put together to give it a whirl!!

VamP

Just get two sets of tubular alloy wheels would be my advice. The very nice Superstar Pave @ £220 and 1,300g are a great bet and about half the price of the Hunts (which are also nice wheels BTW). I think both use Kinlin rims.

With decent pads and properly adjusted cantis the braking is fine on both alloy and carbon. It's never been a factor in my races and those who know will confirm I do analyse everything performance related pretty minutely.

Furthermore, having grip (tubulars) greatly aids your ability to brake (if that's your concern) regardless of the type of brake. The more you race , the more your concern will shift to carrying speed, where again the tubulars will be of great assistance.

Chris James

Supernaut wrote:

Fenix wrote:

last cross world champs I saw the field was split 50/50 cantis and disks. Maybe some courses suit them better than others ?

Last year was the big transition - this time around it'll be close to 10:90 canti:disc
Carbon works ok with cantis as a braking surface but it's not as good as alloy by any stretch.

Yes, they are pretty much all on discs now - although I strongly suspect that is at least partly to do with the manufacturers pushing discs - few bike manufacturers still offer cross bikes with cantis.

Banno

VamP wrote:

Just get two sets of tubular alloy wheels would be my advice. The very nice Superstar Pave @ £220 and 1,300g are a great bet and about half the price of the Hunts (which are also nice wheels BTW). I think both use Kinlin rims.

With decent pads and properly adjusted cantis the braking is fine on both alloy and carbon. It's never been a factor in my races and those who know will confirm I do analyse everything performance related pretty minutely.

Furthermore, having grip (tubulars) greatly aids your ability to brake (if that's your concern) regardless of the type of brake. The more you race , the more your concern will shift to carrying speed, where again the tubulars will be of great assistance.

Those Pave's look superb value for money!!
I notice they do a clincher in the same width rim. Training and racing set for less money??

VamP

I wouldn't be afraid to use tubulars for training. If punctures are the bogey man, get one set nice tubs, and one set TUFOs, preload them with gunk, and you're golden. I have done nearly 3,000 miles on a set of TUFO file treads (all sorts of terrain) without any punctures - only binned them when the sidewalls started to collapse.

Supernaut

Chris James wrote:

Supernaut wrote:

Fenix wrote:

last cross world champs I saw the field was split 50/50 cantis and disks. Maybe some courses suit them better than others ?

Last year was the big transition - this time around it'll be close to 10:90 canti:disc
Carbon works ok with cantis as a braking surface but it's not as good as alloy by any stretch.

Yes, they are pretty much all on discs now - although I strongly suspect that is at least partly to do with the manufacturers pushing discs - few bike manufacturers still offer cross bikes with cantis.

There's no way back for the big boys now though, having discs has changed how the races run. Take a look at Gavere for example. Wout and Mathieu were taking the switchback section completely differently to how it had been done in previous years - sliding in then almost coming to a complete stop, adjusting the line then giving it full gas on exit rather than trying to preserve momentum. This was creating ruts that wouldn't have been there before and making it much harder for anyone on cantis to follow the same line, because they wouldn't have been able to pull up so hard on the apex and hit the ruts.
Similar at Koppenberg and Niel, and they were both dry days. If they were as muddy as usual the difference would've been greater.

(User of cantis in CX for 20+ years here, really wanted to hate discs but I'd never go back now, there are very few real downsides)

tgotb

VamP wrote:

I wouldn't be afraid to use tubulars for training. If punctures are the bogey man, get one set nice tubs, and one set TUFOs, preload them with gunk, and you're golden. I have done nearly 3,000 miles on a set of TUFO file treads (all sorts of terrain) without any punctures - only binned them when the sidewalls started to collapse.

I never considered this before, but if you don't already have clincher wheels it's a good call. I did a few races on a set of TUFOs with a Grifo-like tread, and didn't feel I was giving a lot away compared with my FMBs. If I had to restrict myself to one wheelset, that set would be a good bet. If I was allowed a second wheelset, it would be another set of tubs with something like a Limus tread.

VamP

I'm actually racing on TUFO muds this season, and as you say, don't feel like I'm giving that much away to the FMBs. They are less supple, and lacking in bite in slimey stuff, but the reliability is a big plus.