Wheelsmith Aero 38mm v Zipp 303

teebs_123

Sorry, I know these topics have been done to death, but any genuine advice would be welcome

Would like a new wheelset to go on a S-Works Tarmac, narrowed down to either Wheelsmith Aero 38mm w/ Chris King R45s or Zipp 303/404s. Used for mixed terrain, I've got a set of aluminium clinchers for mountain/Alps work - these will be for other rides.

Similar price discounted, but the Wheelsmiths come with better hubs and will be built to my spec of spokes etc, thoughts?

Andy

ryan_w-2

Why not consider the Rovals?

But either set you've mentioned would be a great addition.

My 404s have been faultless for the past year / 3,000km. I've been up to 107kg and they've never let me down.

teebs_123

Ryan_W wrote:

Why not consider the Rovals?

But either set you've mentioned would be a great addition.

My 404s have been faultless for the past year / 3,000km. I've been up to 107kg and they've never let me down.

Thanks, I've not seen a particularly positive review for Rovals yet..

I do like the idea of being able to recycle the Hubs on the Wheelsmith wheels.

ytchi

Another suggestion which may or not be of interest but have you looked at the Prime RP-38s? I've just got a pair after looking at all the options and they seem very good, especially given the cost. If hadn't have got those I probably would have gone for the Profile Design 38 Twenty Four but they were a £400+ more expensive.

teebs_123

ytchi wrote:

Another suggestion which may or not be of interest but have you looked at the Prime RP-38s? I've just got a pair after looking at all the options and they seem very good, especially given the cost. If hadn't have got those I probably would have gone for the Profile Design 38 Twenty Four but they were a £400+ more expensive.

Thanks, I'll have a look

sloppyschleckonds

I'd go for Chris King hubs just for how they sound.
Ideally built on a 23/25/27 mm wide rim.

teebs_123

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

I'd go for Chris King hubs just for how they sound.
Ideally built on a 23/25/27 mm wide rim.

Thanks, the Wheelsmith are 25mm wide. Agree regarding the CK Hubs, I've got a set on my Aluminium clinchers and they are great

Midlands Grimpeur

I know you are specifically after the wheelsmith 38mm but I have the 45mm aero dimpled laced to DA hubs. The build quality is very good, and in my opinion better than Zipp. Have used them for the past year and probably my favourite wheelset owned. Personally I would take the wheelsmith (38 or 45) over a set of Zipps, cost saving alone is pretty considerable.

teebs_123

Midlands Grimpeur wrote:

I know you are specifically after the wheelsmith 38mm but I have the 45mm aero dimpled laced to DA hubs. The build quality is very good, and in my opinion better than Zipp. Have used them for the past year and probably my favourite wheelset owned. Personally I would take the wheelsmith (38 or 45) over a set of Zipps, cost saving alone is pretty considerable.

Thanks, good to hear from someone who's got a pair of the wheels. They're shut until next Monday, but I think I'll get the order placed asap

teebs_123

To finish this off, I've ordered the 38mm aero wheels with Chris King R45 (black hub). Should be with me next week sometime.

neeb

Teebs_123 wrote:

To finish this off, I've ordered the 38mm aero wheels with Chris King R45 (black hub). Should be with me next week sometime.

How have you found them? Thinking about this build myself using my Powertap G3 at the rear, as a replacement for an old set of Reynolds 46 (not the current "aero" ones but the old narrow section v-shaped ones).

Wondering if a modern set of wide u-shaped rims at 38mm depth will be faster than old narrow rims at 46mm depth (given 23mm tubs in both cases).

How have you found the braking?

teebs_123

neeb wrote:

Teebs_123 wrote:

To finish this off, I've ordered the 38mm aero wheels with Chris King R45 (black hub). Should be with me next week sometime.

How have you found them? Thinking about this build myself using my Powertap G3 at the rear, as a replacement for an old set of Reynolds 46 (not the current "aero" ones but the old narrow section v-shaped ones).

Wondering if a modern set of wide u-shaped rims at 38mm depth will be faster than old narrow rims at 46mm depth (given 23mm tubs in both cases).

How have you found the braking?

Hi

I've done around 400 miles on them and they've been very good so far. Braking is excellent with the supplied pads and I'm using Dura Ace 9100 calipers.

Build quality was spot on and the shop that built the bike (Sigma Sport) commented on their overall quality, especially for the price.

Andy

Midlands Grimpeur

Wondering if a modern set of wide u-shaped rims at 38mm depth will be faster than old narrow rims at 46mm depth (given 23mm tubs in both cases).

Can't say they are faster but having used older carbon (narrow) rims and currently on wider wheelsmith aero 45's, the wider rims are more comfortable and just have a better ride quality overall IMO.

neeb

Thanks! Have you had a chance to see how the braking is in the wet?

<edit - thanks and question directed at both of you!>

teebs_123

neeb wrote:

Thanks! Have you had a chance to see how the braking is in the wet?

<edit - thanks and question directed at both of you!>

No, not yet.

Midlands Grimpeur

Yes, braking in the wet is good, far better than other carbon rims I have used (with the wheelsmith blue pads supplied). They also don't seem to suffer from the cheese grater effect you can get with other pad/rim combos through grit/dirt in wet conditions.

neeb

Sound great!

Can't decide between the 45mm aero dimpled and the 38mm aero now.. 38s are supposed to be about 150g lighter (in the tubular version, the clincher weights seem much more similar), but I'd put up with that if someone could convince me that the aero dimpled 45mm would be faster.. :-)

I notice that the 45mm dimpled "bulge" as well as being u-shaped, i.e. they are 25mm (or 26.4 according to the diagram?) at the brake track, but 27.5 in the middle of the section. Do the 38 aero have that profile too I wonder?

Does he only build with brass nipples or will he do alloy ones? (there's no mention on the website).

bikes`n`guns

I use Wheelsmith Race 30 built on DA hubs and love them. I use 25mm tyres which sit pretty flush with the sidewalls.
Even on the 30`s you get a little Aero effect.

Worth every penny.

dstev55

neeb wrote:

Sound great!

Can't decide between the 45mm aero dimpled and the 38mm aero now.. 38s are supposed to be about 150g lighter (in the tubular version, the clincher weights seem much more similar), but I'd put up with that if someone could convince me that the aero dimpled 45mm would be faster.. :-)

I notice that the 45mm dimpled "bulge" as well as being u-shaped, i.e. they are 25mm (or 26.4 according to the diagram?) at the brake track, but 27.5 in the middle of the section. Do the 38 aero have that profile too I wonder?

Does he only build with brass nipples or will he do alloy ones? (there's no mention on the website).

My bike had Cero AR30's on before the Aero Dimpled, and despite the much criticised narrowness of the AR30's, they were excellent climbing wheels (weighed under 1400g).

However I don't feel any decrease in uphill performance on the Aero Dimpled and to me they definitely feel quicker at higher speeds. And in terms of ride comfort and smoothness, the Aero Dimpled wheels are in a different league to the AR30's.

neeb

dstev55 wrote:

My bike had Cero AR30's on before the Aero Dimpled, and despite the much criticised narrowness of the AR30's, they were excellent climbing wheels (weighed under 1400g).

However I don't feel any decrease in uphill performance on the Aero Dimpled and to me they definitely feel quicker at higher speeds. And in terms of ride comfort and smoothness, the Aero Dimpled wheels are in a different league to the AR30's.

By all accounts this is one of the biggest advantage of wider wheels - I certainly noticed a massive difference going to wider rims on my alloy winter wheels (even with the same 23mm tyres). I guess with tubulars it may be slightly less of an issue because you can run tyres at lower pressure without pinch flats, but everything I've heard about the modern wider carbon suggests that there's a big difference in feel and handling.

From the profile diagram on the wheelsmith website it looks like the aero dimpled tick all of the boxes for being a modern rim aerodynamically, not only being wide at the brake track but also being toroidal and expanding even wider in the middle. It's just the weight that puts me off a little bit, especially as I'd be going for the tubs - my Reynolds 46, for all their 21mm narrowness and v-profile, are about 200g lighter and I feel that if I'm putting up with the hassle of tubulars they should be silly light.. ;-)

Can't find any rim section diagrams or even decent photos of the aero38 (only the 50s) - Teebs_123, I'd be really interested to know if these rims have a toroidal profile - i.e., do they bulge to become a little wider than the brake track in the middle?

Sorry, I'm being cheeky hijacking your thread and asking lots of questions, it's just because Wheelsmith are on holiday right now and I can't ask them directly..

matt_n-2

neeb wrote:

Sound great!

Can't decide between the 45mm aero dimpled and the 38mm aero now.. 38s are supposed to be about 150g lighter (in the tubular version, the clincher weights seem much more similar), but I'd put up with that if someone could convince me that the aero dimpled 45mm would be faster.. :-)

I notice that the 45mm dimpled "bulge" as well as being u-shaped, i.e. they are 25mm (or 26.4 according to the diagram?) at the brake track, but 27.5 in the middle of the section. Do the 38 aero have that profile too I wonder?

They're just 303 copies aren't they so in theory the 45mm dimpled should be faster than the 38mm but as they're open mould copies they'll be no data to back that up.

napoleond

If you were using 23mm tubs on the narrow Reynolds then you'll have lost most of the aero advantage. Tyres need to be same width as the rim to transition smoothly. This is why Mavics often performed poorly in aero tests, they were tested with 23mm tyres instead of 21.
I bet you wouldn't notice 200g until the steeper (over 6%) hills, even then it'll be negligible and far outweighed by the aero benefit on the flat/rolling roads.

I've 2 sets of Wheelsmith wheels, some 60mm carbon clinchers and some light box section wheels.
I've had the box sections (extra light front hub, Record rear, cx ray spokes, IRD cadence road rims) for 5 years, ridden as my everyday wheels, currently on my winter bike. They are still as true as ever and I absolutely love them! Rear hub may need a service soon but they've seen some grim conditions.
The carbon clinchers are using PMP hubs from some 50mm carbon tubulars I had. They are RAPID. Again, build quality is fantastic.

dstev55

The only issue I'm finding with my 45mm Aero Dimpled wheels are that the!Blue brake pads are wearing ridiculously quickly. I've only ridden about 400 miles on them and the front pads are nearly half worn already. Anyone else have this issue?

matt_n-2

NapoleonD wrote:

If you were using 23mm tubs on the narrow Reynolds then you'll have lost most of the aero advantage. Tyres need to be same width as the rim to transition smoothly. This is why Mavics often performed poorly in aero tests, they were tested with 23mm tyres instead of 21.
I bet you wouldn't notice 200g until the steeper (over 6%) hills, even then it'll be negligible and far outweighed by the aero benefit on the flat/rolling roads.

That goes against what the industry has come up with and defined as the rule of 105%.

Whereby rim width should ideally and aerodynamically be 105% of tyre width.

Meaning a 25mm tyre sits perfectly within that rule on something like a 303.

https://silca.cc/blogs/journal/part-5-t ... rodynamics

Nice Extreme Power btw 8)

matt_n-2

dstev55 wrote:

The only issue I'm finding with my 45mm Aero Dimpled wheels are that the!Blue brake pads are wearing ridiculously quickly. I've only ridden about 400 miles on them and the front pads are nearly half worn already. Anyone else have this issue?

I've got 303s and use SS Black Prince, they do wear quickly but that seems fast.

Is that the supplied pads or Reynolds blue?

teebs_123

dstev55 wrote:

The only issue I'm finding with my 45mm Aero Dimpled wheels are that the!Blue brake pads are wearing ridiculously quickly. I've only ridden about 400 miles on them and the front pads are nearly half worn already. Anyone else have this issue?

That's about the same wear rate as my Wheelsmith wheels. Quicker wear rate than standard alloy pads, but I would expect that.

neeb

Matt_N wrote:

That goes against what the industry has come up with and defined as the rule of 105%.

Whereby rim width should ideally and aerodynamically be 105% of tyre width.

Meaning a 25mm tyre sits perfectly within that rule on something like a 303.

Yup, although I think NapD was just saying that the tyres at least shouldn't be wider than the rim, as they are on my Reynolds.. The wheelsmith aero dimpled do indeed seem like 303 copies - the aero38s on the other hand seem closer to the Enve 3.4s, except without the size difference front and back. One of the people who posted about his aero38s on the testimonials page on the wheelsmith site also had enve 3.4s and said that the ride feel was indistinguishable.. But this is why I'm trying to find out the exact profile of the aero38s - a width of 24mm is mentioned but it's not clear if that's across all of the rim depths on offer and also whether it is a toroidal rim. If they are 24mm wide I'd run a 23mm tub on the front and 25 rear (the actual width of my scwalbe ones seems to be about 22mm, when fitted on my Reynolds at least).

It's just balancing the significant extra weight of the dimpled 45s with the much lighter aero38s. I'm sure that the 45 dimpled would be faster, but if the 38s have a good profile it might be fairly marginal.

teebs_123

neeb wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

My bike had Cero AR30's on before the Aero Dimpled, and despite the much criticised narrowness of the AR30's, they were excellent climbing wheels (weighed under 1400g).

However I don't feel any decrease in uphill performance on the Aero Dimpled and to me they definitely feel quicker at higher speeds. And in terms of ride comfort and smoothness, the Aero Dimpled wheels are in a different league to the AR30's.

By all accounts this is one of the biggest advantage of wider wheels - I certainly noticed a massive difference going to wider rims on my alloy winter wheels (even with the same 23mm tyres). I guess with tubulars it may be slightly less of an issue because you can run tyres at lower pressure without pinch flats, but everything I've heard about the modern wider carbon suggests that there's a big difference in feel and handling.

From the profile diagram on the wheelsmith website it looks like the aero dimpled tick all of the boxes for being a modern rim aerodynamically, not only being wide at the brake track but also being toroidal and expanding even wider in the middle. It's just the weight that puts me off a little bit, especially as I'd be going for the tubs - my Reynolds 46, for all their 21mm narrowness and v-profile, are about 200g lighter and I feel that if I'm putting up with the hassle of tubulars they should be silly light.. ;-)

Can't find any rim section diagrams or even decent photos of the aero38 (only the 50s) - Teebs_123, I'd be really interested to know if these rims have a toroidal profile - i.e., do they bulge to become a little wider than the brake track in the middle?

Sorry, I'm being cheeky hijacking your thread and asking lots of questions, it's just because Wheelsmith are on holiday right now and I can't ask them directly..

Hi,

Give me a few mins and I'll go and take some photos if that would help you?

Andy

dstev55

Matt_N wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

The only issue I'm finding with my 45mm Aero Dimpled wheels are that the!Blue brake pads are wearing ridiculously quickly. I've only ridden about 400 miles on them and the front pads are nearly half worn already. Anyone else have this issue?

I've got 303s and use SS Black Prince, they do wear quickly but that seems fast.

Is that the supplied pads or Reynolds blue?

His own blue pads, he won't recommend anything else

dstev55

Teebs_123 wrote:

dstev55 wrote:

The only issue I'm finding with my 45mm Aero Dimpled wheels are that the!Blue brake pads are wearing ridiculously quickly. I've only ridden about 400 miles on them and the front pads are nearly half worn already. Anyone else have this issue?

That's about the same wear rate as my Wheelsmith wheels. Quicker wear rate than standard alloy pads, but I would expect that.

Jesus, I'd better start budgeting for them then!

neeb

Teebs_123 wrote:

Hi,

Give me a few mins and I'll go and take some photos if that would help you?

Andy

That would be absolutely brilliant if you can be bothered! No rush though obviously!