Why do cx racers run such narrow gearing?

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Comments

  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Whether that will result in a change of equipment by PROs or not is irrelevant... as a consumer I am interested in more choice and I would really like a drop bars bike that can take 2.5 inch tyres on 650b rims... I think it would be popular, some folks would use it for CX, others for a ride on the Ridgeway, others to go shopping or whatever...

    Whether anyone would win the Worlds or not on it I am frankly not bothered
    Then why are you so worried about the rules for a racing discipline that you don't even participate in? Do you also frequent track racing forums, telling them how stupid it is that they're not allowed to have gears and brakes?
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    TGOTB wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Whether that will result in a change of equipment by PROs or not is irrelevant... as a consumer I am interested in more choice and I would really like a drop bars bike that can take 2.5 inch tyres on 650b rims... I think it would be popular, some folks would use it for CX, others for a ride on the Ridgeway, others to go shopping or whatever...

    Whether anyone would win the Worlds or not on it I am frankly not bothered
    Then why are you so worried about the rules for a racing discipline that you don't even participate in? Do you also frequent track racing forums, telling them how stupid it is that they're not allowed to have gears and brakes?

    Because rules are what the manufacturers follow when they spec their bikes... as I said, before the UCi opened to disc brakes, all you could buy was a 13 Kg Croix de Fer (which I did buy, by the way)

    Fitting brakes to a fixed gear bike or converting a bike to run fixed is not rocket science, so no... I don't
    left the forum March 2023
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Whether that will result in a change of equipment by PROs or not is irrelevant... as a consumer I am interested in more choice and I would really like a drop bars bike that can take 2.5 inch tyres on 650b rims... I think it would be popular, some folks would use it for CX, others for a ride on the Ridgeway, others to go shopping or whatever...

    Whether anyone would win the Worlds or not on it I am frankly not bothered
    Then why are you so worried about the rules for a racing discipline that you don't even participate in? Do you also frequent track racing forums, telling them how stupid it is that they're not allowed to have gears and brakes?

    Because rules are what the manufacturers follow when they spec their bikes... as I said, before the UCi opened to disc brakes, all you could buy was a 13 Kg Croix de Fer (which I did buy, by the way)

    Fitting brakes to a fixed gear bike or converting a bike to run fixed is not rocket science, so no... I don't
    Rather than changing the sport of cyclocross racing, in the hope that someone will start producing your dream bike, wouldn't it be simpler to get a custom frame built to your requirements?
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    TGOTB wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    TGOTB wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Whether that will result in a change of equipment by PROs or not is irrelevant... as a consumer I am interested in more choice and I would really like a drop bars bike that can take 2.5 inch tyres on 650b rims... I think it would be popular, some folks would use it for CX, others for a ride on the Ridgeway, others to go shopping or whatever...

    Whether anyone would win the Worlds or not on it I am frankly not bothered
    Then why are you so worried about the rules for a racing discipline that you don't even participate in? Do you also frequent track racing forums, telling them how stupid it is that they're not allowed to have gears and brakes?

    Because rules are what the manufacturers follow when they spec their bikes... as I said, before the UCi opened to disc brakes, all you could buy was a 13 Kg Croix de Fer (which I did buy, by the way)

    Fitting brakes to a fixed gear bike or converting a bike to run fixed is not rocket science, so no... I don't
    Rather than changing the sport of cyclocross racing, in the hope that someone will start producing your dream bike, wouldn't it be simpler to get a custom frame built to your requirements?

    Naaa, it won't change the sport.

    it's not just the frame, there are all sorts of little tweaks with components one has to do to make these things work. Besides, I don't have money for a custom frame.

    I also see there is a problem... discs brough the specimen back to life from the grave, but in the long run these bikes need to keep evolving to still be a hit in the market. Road bikes are getting more aero (and they will ALL have discs within 5 years) and that's the way they go, MTbikes have lots of room for development as there are basically no rules on what a MTBike is... but for CX, where do you go? How long before Specialized and Trek have 6 gravel bikes on the catalogue and only one CX?
    If you lose the market share, the sport loses out no doubt

    You need to evolve and to evolve you need to relax regulations
    left the forum March 2023
  • VamP
    VamP Posts: 674
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    VamP wrote:

    Ugo I know trolling is the new black, hell play it right and it can get you elected US President, but have you spent any time at all in a competitive environment? Met many competitive types who turn their back on genuine technical advantage?

    That's all you seem to be able to say... every time someone disagrees, he must be a troll.

    Actually, I think this is the first time I have actually suggested that you (or anyone else for that matter) might be trolling. I am not in the habit of describing people in language I would not want used about me.

    I am still not sure what you are trying to do with this thread, I think you want everyone to start using 27.5 wheels, though I might be wrong, it's hard to see from the tubular bubble, and huffing Mastik doesn't help with clarity of thinking either.

    The only other time I recall talking to you was on thread specifically asking about a particular model of a cross tub, where you advised to avoid it on the basis someone you knew had issues with a road tub.

    So maybe you just have trouble staying on point? Not attention seeking after all.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    VamP wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    VamP wrote:

    Ugo I know trolling is the new black, hell play it right and it can get you elected US President, but have you spent any time at all in a competitive environment? Met many competitive types who turn their back on genuine technical advantage?

    That's all you seem to be able to say... every time someone disagrees, he must be a troll.

    Actually, I think this is the first time I have actually suggested that you (or anyone else for that matter) might be trolling. I am not in the habit of describing people in language I would not want used about me.

    I am still not sure what you are trying to do with this thread, I think you want everyone to start using 27.5 wheels, though I might be wrong, it's hard to see from the tubular bubble, and huffing Mastik doesn't help with clarity of thinking either.

    The only other time I recall talking to you was on thread specifically asking about a particular model of a cross tub, where you advised to avoid it on the basis someone you knew had issues with a road tub.

    So maybe you just have trouble staying on point? Not attention seeking after all.

    No, you don't remember correctly... you have accused me of trolling on many occasions... pretty much always with the same argument: you don't race so you don't know and should not speak.

    My counter argument is that half of the people at team Sky knew very little about road cycling (or even just cycling) when they started and success came from looking at things from a different angle and trying to do things differently. Not that I claim I will do that, but looking at things from a different angle is important and intelligent people typically respect that.

    I don't want anyone to change habits, but I think it would be good for the sector if rules were relaxed... I see the tyre size rule as being particularly pedantic and restrictive. The net result is that no CX frame is designed to accept a tyre larger than 40 mm and many don't even get there and if you account for mud build up, then even 33 is a stretch.

    As for the tubulars... I have built several hundred wheels over the years and I've come across two people who liked the faff of tubulars... one lives in Northampton and the other one in Kent... everybody else avoided them like plague or would have gladly avoided them if there was an equally valid non-glued alternative.
    Tubeless have the potential to be the alternative, but they need a bit more volume to cope with very low pressures without burping... here's the drive the industry needs to relax regulations... nobody likes tubulars, I don't think even tyre manufacturers like tubulars... well maybe Dugast and his trendy protegee do like them because they keep their workshop open, but otherwise nobody will miss them when they will eventually go
    left the forum March 2023
  • LeePaton
    LeePaton Posts: 353
    Ugo. Open Up takes 650b or the generic Chinese version for way less.

    As for tyre width, nano 40cs don't feel quicker through the mud than a set of 33 Super MUDs maybe the opposite TBH they feel floaty, but more comfortable and I'd probably try riding more things on it.

    However it's amazing how much time you can make up knowing when too run.

    It's kinda the point in cyclocross.
    It's not so much about winning, I just hate losing.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    LeePaton wrote:
    Ugo. Open Up takes 650b or the generic Chinese version for way less.

    .

    Nice, if dear...

    I even like the brown paint... :shock:
    left the forum March 2023
  • Jterrier
    Jterrier Posts: 97
    Blimey. This thread really kicked off eh....
  • cyclingsheep
    cyclingsheep Posts: 640
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Chris James wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Bigger tyres can be ran at lower pressure without the need for expensive and frankly antiquated "sew-ups". 20 PSI or less are not uncommon in MTBikes with tubeless... So yes, you do get more grip.

    I don't think Q factor should be of great concern for a bicycle designed to be ridden for an hour or two... I don't even think the difference would be so majestic... we are talking 5 mm each side, you'd probably hardly notice

    I have used an XT shadow rear mech for the past 3 years now... I still have to find a drawback... other than I need an inline barrel adjuster. Before I got fed up of riding in the mud, I used to go out quie a lot in the Surrey and Chiltern hills, where the chances of clogging a derailleur with leaves are greater than in a muddy field, but nothing... after all they are designed to do just that, so it's not surprising they do it better than a derailleur designed to be ridden on tarmac

    By that logic then a fat bike would make a great cyclocross bike. You only need enough grip, which can be achieved by cyclocross tyres. I race on clinchers at the high 20s psi and don't have any grip problems.

    Even so, all the grip in the world doesn't help you if your wheels won't go round because the mud stuck to them has jammed in the chainstays.

    There are some courses where MTBs are faster than cyclocross bikes, but they are pretty few and far between and are usually at the lower end races where the course designer doesn't follow the guidance and basically just designs an XC MTB route.

    I also use my cross bike for blasting around in the woods and it is great fun. I've never had any problems with my rear mech there, and I use a short cage road one. I've also used my cross bike at various trail centres and off road routes in the Lakes and Yorkshire Dales without any problems.

    Cyclocross racing is very different in that by the time you come to race then potentially several hundred riders have destroyed the course by riding multiple race or warm up laps on your line. This is very different to you picking your own line through a wood, and it forces you through a LOT of mud. If the mud is followed by leaves, twigs or stones these instantly stick to the mud and get jammed everywhere - especially the jockey wheels, which will rapidly stop being able to rotate and will rip your hanger off.

    At a recent race that I attended 1 in every 7 riders snapped their hangers - and a good chunk of the field had a pit bike and crew who could wash their bike every half lap to try to prevent the breakages.

    I've done a fair amount of mountain bike routes on my cross bike and the bike needs hosing off afterwards. After only 40 minutes of cyclocross (I'm a vet now :wink: ) my cross bike has sometimes been so badly gunked up that I have had to remove the cranks because so much grass was jammed in there that they wouldn't rotate.

    I guess my point is not coming across the way I mean it... I am basically against over-regulation... defining a tyre size means that manufacturers have to conform and the scope for new designed is somewhat limited. Discs opened up things dramatically and allowing different tyre sizes would give even more scope.

    Whether that will result in a change of equipment by PROs or not is irrelevant... as a consumer I am interested in more choice and I would really like a drop bars bike that can take 2.5 inch tyres on 650b rims... I think it would be popular, some folks would use it for CX, others for a ride on the Ridgeway, others to go shopping or whatever...

    Whether anyone would win the Worlds or not on it I am frankly not bothered
    If that's what you want look no further than the Open UP, job done
  • Jterrier
    Jterrier Posts: 97
    ....or a mason bokeh.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    cyclingsheep wrote:
    If that's what you want look no further than the Open UP, job done

    Nice, but one digit too many in the price, 'mfraid...
    left the forum March 2023
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    cyclingsheep wrote:
    If that's what you want look no further than the Open UP, job done

    Nice, but one digit too many in the price, 'mfraid...
    So the issue isn't that the bike you want isn't available; you're just hoping that, by changing the rules of a sport in which you don't participate, it can be made cheaper...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    TGOTB wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    cyclingsheep wrote:
    If that's what you want look no further than the Open UP, job done

    Nice, but one digit too many in the price, 'mfraid...
    So the issue isn't that the bike you want isn't available; you're just hoping that, by changing the rules of a sport in which you don't participate, it can be made cheaper...

    I didn't even know it existed, but yes, a working class equivalent would be desirable. The most I spent on a frame was 750 pounds... I got the Ridley for 200 quid on EBay... bargain that was

    1DllBDo.jpg
    left the forum March 2023
  • Moonbiker
    Moonbiker Posts: 1,706
    Sounds like you want a monstercross bike ugo.


    http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/road/all-road/stuntman

    http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/adv ... d/vagabond


    I would like a frameset with thoose tyre clerances but lighter.


    OP question:

    I don't think I need lower gearing than current 34 - 28 as than gets up all hills in cross anything lower I would either spin wheels or be going slower than running up the hill.

    http://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    Moonbiker wrote:
    Sounds like you want a monstercross bike ugo.


    http://www.raleighusa.com/bikes/road/all-road/stuntman

    http://www.genesisbikes.co.uk/bikes/adv ... d/vagabond


    I would like a frameset with thoose tyre clerances but lighter.


    OP question:

    I don't think I need lower gearing than current 34 - 28 as than gets up all hills in cross anything lower I would either spin wheels or be going slower than running up the hill.

    http://www.bikecalc.com/speed_at_cadence

    The Genesis is truly dire... the Raleigh is not bad, bit of a gravel bike geometry and probably well over 10 Kg... Just like you, in the 21st century there is no need to have 2Kg of frame.

    As for the gear ratio, I always found there is an almost linear relationship between the gradient you can clear and the ratio you can use.
    left the forum March 2023
  • ChrisSA
    ChrisSA Posts: 455
    Interesting thread.
    Unless you are racing a UCI race then you are unlikely to be limited to 33mm width tyres and your local CX league would be happy with with you racing on wider tyres.
    I'm building a crosser at the moment, probably won't be ready until after the close of this season, so I won't get to test the gearing in anger until later this year. I do know I'll want an easy gear for spinning around the course during a recce/WU laps. Then from some previous CX experience I think I'll want something as close to a straight block as possible for the hard work. It's a case of what size chainring to mate it to. Kinda similar to a 1x11 TT setup I am looking at for 2017; I need a small gear on the cassette for cycling to/from the start, but the rest needs to be big for the actual race. 11speed seems to make this possible.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Funnily enough the most open minded about innovation seem to be the folks at CTT UK, whose only restrictions are a result of safety concerns

    Hmm... Can anyone say "3cm" with a straight face whilst thinking that CTT are open-minded?
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  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    ChrisSA wrote:
    Interesting thread.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Funnily enough the most open minded about innovation seem to be the folks at CTT UK, whose only restrictions are a result of safety concerns

    Hmm... Can anyone say "3cm" with a straight face whilst thinking that CTT are open-minded?
    The 3cm rule may be poorly thought, probably unenforceable, and definitely not enforced, but at least there appears to be a reason for its existence (banning the Superman position). The CTT rule banning sleeveless tops - which achieves nothing in the 21st Century beyond annoying triantelopes - is far, far sillier...
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ChrisSA
    ChrisSA Posts: 455
    TGOTB wrote:
    ChrisSA wrote:
    Interesting thread.
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Funnily enough the most open minded about innovation seem to be the folks at CTT UK, whose only restrictions are a result of safety concerns

    Hmm... Can anyone say "3cm" with a straight face whilst thinking that CTT are open-minded?
    The 3cm rule may be poorly thought, probably unenforceable, and definitely not enforced, but at least there appears to be a reason for its existence (banning the Superman position). The CTT rule banning sleeveless tops - which achieves nothing in the 21st Century beyond annoying triantelopes - is far, far sillier...

    Sleeveless tops are allowed at club level events. Much like tyres >33mm in width at non-UCI CX events.

    Anyhow... we digress.
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  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    digress indeed...

    As I have tried in vain to point out, my point is not whether or not I would be allowed in a local race with a fat bike, but whether or not the UCI would relax a rule that would imply mainstream manufacturers would design bikes with more clearance, so that Joe average can tap in the 650b wheel and tyre market.

    Somene helpfully pointed in the direction of the Open UP frame, which is very nice indeed, if very dear... it would be nice to see more of these, at a more reasonable price point

    Petty rules about short sleeves and logos have no influence on anybody, it's like they didn't exist, so who cares?
    left the forum March 2023
  • LeePaton
    LeePaton Posts: 353
    http://www.carbonda.com/news/news-02.html

    https://www.instagram.com/p/BOHk6mhDkYn/
    It's not so much about winning, I just hate losing.
  • tgotb
    tgotb Posts: 4,714
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    As I have tried in vain to point out
    You haven't tried in vain at all; we're all quite clear that you want to change the rules of a sport you've never participated in, and have no intention of participating in, purely to reduce the cost of you buying your dream bike (which is already available, just a bit too expensive).

    The only thing we seem to disagree on, is whether saving you a bit of money is worth changing a whole sport for. You think it is, most others seem to think it isn't.
    Pannier, 120rpm.
  • ugo.santalucia
    ugo.santalucia Posts: 28,255
    TGOTB wrote:
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    As I have tried in vain to point out
    You haven't tried in vain at all; we're all quite clear that you want to change the rules of a sport you've never participated in, and have no intention of participating in, purely to reduce the cost of you buying your dream bike (which is already available, just a bit too expensive).

    The only thing we seem to disagree on, is whether saving you a bit of money is worth changing a whole sport for. You think it is, most others seem to think it isn't.

    Lots of people would be interested in such bike... CX sold well because it was the only way to get a drop bike with discs... now you can get a road bike with discs, so sales will go down again... time to think of something else to flog those CX bikes, or they'll go back to be a one off in the catalogue, the overpriced piece for the museum... just like they were before 2010

    The sport wouldn't change... as you and other have said, 33 or thereabout is probably the right size anyway for most courses

    ... and what's wrong with change anyway... you are not one of those who want things to remain as they were 30 years ago, are you?
    left the forum March 2023
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    ugo.santalucia wrote:
    Lots of people would be interested in such bike...

    If they were, then manufacturers would build it. Manufacturers are demand-driven. The UCI does not prevent manufacturers from building/selling any type of bike they want - it simply regulates rules of competition. People who 'compete' on bikes actually represent quite a small proportion of the global market anyway. Disc road bikes are becoming popular in spite of the UCI's current competition regs, so blaming the UCI is a bit of a soft option, I think.

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