Experienced tubeless user Q...

munkster

I've been on tubeless for about two years and have no intention of going back, it is brilliant and I tell anyone who will listen, regardless of whether they want to hear. What I have found however, and something that makes the whole process significantly less attractive overall, is that whenever I need to replace or replenish sealant I invariably am unable to get the bead to re-mount (pop onto the rim) even with an Airshot.

I solve this by the time-honoured process of adding another layer of tape and then Bob's your uncle, smoothing the path from the rim well to the rim hooks. Simple solution yes but this does mean a much lengthier process of having to have the tyre off completely (rather than just having a bit off the rim to siphon off the old stuff) and cleaning up the rim bed and drying before putting the new tape on.

Now I've got pretty quick at doing all this but not as quick as it would be without the tape bit.

So, am I doing something wrong? Does everyone have to do this or is it just me? This seems to be required regardless of what tyre or rim I use (Hutchinson, IRC, Schwalbe for the tyres, and either Pacenti SL23 or Velocity A23s for the rims).

Thanks for any thoughts.

ugo.santalucia

I use an injector for the sealant, so the tyre doesn't have to come unseated...

oldbazza

I've just re-done my Schwalbe S-One"s(rear after having a tube in post puncture and sealant top-up on the front)and they both re-seated fine on the Archetypes.

munkster

Ugo - I use an injector too, do you not want to know how much is in the tyre before you add more then? Or do you have a method to find out? I did buy the "Milk-It" system which in theory allows you to suck out the existing sealant but found the valves to be not as good in the longer term.

I've found quite a bit of variation in terms of how much sealant has survived, from 10ml to about 30ml, and I normally put 50ml in (belt and braces?) so potentially going to have loads of sealant if I don't take out the old stuff.

oldbazza - Archetypes aren't (officially) tubeless rims, do they have as pronounced a rim as a real tubeless rim? If not that's presumably why you didn't get the same issue?

Edit: Archetype profile (1st) vs A23 profile (2nd) - quite a mountain to climb on the A23s in comparison...

ugo.santalucia

munkster wrote:

Ugo - I use an injector too, do you not want to know how much is in the tyre before you add more then? Or do you have a method to find out? I did buy the "Milk-It" system which in theory allows you to suck out the existing sealant but found the valves to be not as good in the longer term.

No, I am not bothered... if I decide to add sealant, I add sealant, regardless of what's left in it, otherwise I don't bother checking.

Tubeless is fit by experts for the benefit of muppets... once it's fitted, just behave like a muppet and leave it alone

munkster

And what is the trigger that leads you to decide to add sealant then out of interest? An elapsed time? Miles covered? Gut feel?

I think I am pretty relaxed about it and do leave well alone for long periods. Thinking about it; I guess if I just summarily added more sealant every six months (in which time I might do say 2k miles on them) then the tyres are going to wear out and need replacing before accumulation of sealant can become an issue anyway.

ugo.santalucia

I rarely bother... but if it's August and the tyre is still good I might add a bit just in case. Any other time of the year I just assume it won't dry and it doesn't.
I also add if I had a big spray... but that is quite rare... it's only happened a couple of times

My advantage is that I have two bikes only and I ride both of them a lot, so tyres don't last more than 6 months

oldbazza

The Archetypes are definitely not as tight a fit as the Hunt wheels I also have.

Should have mentioned that I did have trouble getting some Hutchinson Sectors to re-seal but some extra tape cured it.

I think I have in the past not put enough sealant in which is maybe why some punctures haven't sealed, especially with the Hutchinsons which I believe need some amount of sealant to seal when first fitted.

fudgey

Do people use normal clinchers and tyres that are not tubeless and just use rim tape and sealant on them?

I am assuming this not such a good idea!

cycleclinic

I pop the tyre of the bead when I need to remove the tyre. Add sealant when you think you need to. If I hear it sloshing around then all is well. If I can't I add some. If little drains through by gravity there is plenty in the tyre.

If your tyre is not reseating with a track pump then the fit was not tight enough to being with. The fit needs to be so tight that the the tyre can be removed and refitted then pumped up without the need for compressed air.

old bazza when a puncture does not seal properly for me that is when I know I have to add sealant.

I siad it before all tubeless issues are mostly user error.

964cup

I use an injector (removing the valve core), renewing sealant roughly every three months, then strip the tyre and remove all the dried sealant once a year (by which time the tyre's usually finished anyway, courtesy of London's shit roads) and check over the rim tape. Never had a problem reseating a tyre that wasn't toast; I do use an airshot for the initial seat of a new tyre about half the time. I run tubeless on Pacenti SL23, Stans ZTR340, Kinesis CX Disc v3 and Wiggle Cosine 30s. I did have some problems with the Cosines originally because they have butted joints that leak, but some Stans sealant (I normally use Caffe Lattex) dealt with that permanently. I use 30ml in anything up to 25c, 50ml above that.

stanthomas

Heresy for this forum I know, but you could use Certified Road Tubeless wheels like Shimano RS61, Ultegra, Easton EA90 etc. Then tubeless tyres pop back on without any trouble. I've never had to use anything other than a track pump. Or you can use removable valve cores and squirt some sealant in that way, in fact that's probably easiest.

I prefer not to run sealant in my tyres but to do that they need to be genuine tubeless, not "tubeless ready". I also run Hutchinson Sectors which, as "tubeless ready", need sealant initially but after that I don't routinely top up. Instead I carry a small bottle of sealant with me rather than a spare tube. Sealant will go lumpy in the bottle over time so I periodically flush and refill the bottle. (I borrowed the idea from my car which doesn't have a spare wheel.)

Bottles? I found some squeezy plastic bottles with a suitable nozzle on eBay. And Hutchinson sealant comes in a handy pocket size bottle with a nozzle too; shame it's a mediocre sealant. But then I discovered that hair dye comes in a bottle that's even better. Not that anyone I know dyes their hair you understand .

munkster

If your tyre is not reseating with a track pump then the fit was not tight enough to being with. The fit needs to be so tight that the the tyre can be removed and refitted then pumped up without the need for compressed air.

Malcolm I know you know about this stuff, but if these tyres that I'm fitting aren't "tight enough" then the mind boggles at just HOW tight you think they need to be! They are so tight that no amount of air (compressed or otherwise) will make the bead of the tyre budge and it's actually a stretch to make them move with fingers either.

As I've said, my assumption is that the "old" rim tape is so flattened down into the well of the rims that they have a mountain to climb to get over to the outside and seat. Adding the tape solves it, or has done. I'm just going to go down the "just add more sealant" route though and not bother removing and checking. As Ugo says or implies, if I need to add more sealant before the tyres wear out then maybe I need to ride more... ;-)

ugo.santalucia

munkster wrote:

If your tyre is not reseating with a track pump then the fit was not tight enough to being with. The fit needs to be so tight that the the tyre can be removed and refitted then pumped up without the need for compressed air.

Malcolm I know you know about this stuff, but if these tyres that I'm fitting aren't "tight enough" then the mind boggles at just HOW tight you think they need to be! They are so tight that no amount of air (compressed or otherwise) will make the bead of the tyre budge and it's actually a stretch to make them move with fingers either.

As I've said, my assumption is that the "old" rim tape is so flattened down into the well of the rims that they have a mountain to climb to get over to the outside and seat. Adding the tape solves it, or has done. I'm just going to go down the "just add more sealant" route though and not bother removing and checking. As Ugo says or implies, if I need to add more sealant before the tyres wear out then maybe I need to ride more... ;-)

Exactly that. Tubeless is not suitable for a bike that is ridden sparingly. Fit the tyres, forget about them and ride them to death in six months and you will get all the advantages and none of the drawbacks

munkster

In my defence... I do! ;-)

ugo.santalucia

munkster wrote:

In my defence... I do! ;-)

Then you shouldn't need to refill the sealant... It won't dry, it's England, not Kenya

oldbazza

thecycleclinic wrote:

I pop the tyre of the bead when I need to remove the tyre. Add sealant when you think you need to. If I hear it sloshing around then all is well. If I can't I add some. If little drains through by gravity there is plenty in the tyre.

If your tyre is not reseating with a track pump then the fit was not tight enough to being with. The fit needs to be so tight that the the tyre can be removed and refitted then pumped up without the need for compressed air.

old bazza when a puncture does not seal properly for me that is when I know I have to add sealant.

I siad it before all tubeless issues are mostly user error.

Yep,deffo operator error It has been a learning process this first year of tubeless use but definitely worth it.

stanthomas

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...Tubeless is not suitable for a bike that is ridden sparingly...

I beg to differ.

Tubeless, i.e. real tubeless, is suitable for all bikes and all types of riding. I dug out the winter bike last month when they started salting the roads. It had lain in a corner for 8 months, lubed the chain, pumped up the tyres (Hutchinson Intensives on RS61) and good to go. This year I forgot to put new batteries in the rear light which caught me out but, apart from that, no issues whatsoever. And my summer bike will stay in the shed until March when I'll do the same with that. Its Hutchinson Sectors have seen two years, perhaps 7000km (the rear is getting a bit worn). And my Dolan CX, which I use to pop into town, does hardly any miles on its Hutchinson Black Mamba/ shagged Ultegra combination.

I've been doing this for 5 years now and the only setup where I'd accept you might have a point is with the converted Open Pros I tried for a while. They're a real pain when the tyres go flat; which is why I don't use them anymore.

ugo.santalucia wrote:

...you shouldn't need to refill the sealant... It won't dry, it's England, not Kenya

Sealant in the tyre will dry out enough to prevent it sealing reliably after about 3 months in (a British) summer. And after a year it's more or less useless.

cycleclinic

I rode a bike a couple of weeks ago that has tubeless tyre which had not been used for 4 or 5 month. I pumped the tyres up and rode. No problems. So yes I beg to differ as well.

The Rookie

Never had sealant dry out in 3 months! I change the tyres summer to winter on my MTB, and the sealant has never been less than box fresh after that time, depending on the weather the sealant will be upto about 9 months old. It will dry out eventually but not sure what shite quality are using for it to be dry in 3 months.

hsiaolc

munkster wrote:

I've been on tubeless for about two years and have no intention of going back, it is brilliant and I tell anyone who will listen, regardless of whether they want to hear. What I have found however, and something that makes the whole process significantly less attractive overall, is that whenever I need to replace or replenish sealant I invariably am unable to get the bead to re-mount (pop onto the rim) even with an Airshot.

I solve this by the time-honoured process of adding another layer of tape and then Bob's your uncle, smoothing the path from the rim well to the rim hooks. Simple solution yes but this does mean a much lengthier process of having to have the tyre off completely (rather than just having a bit off the rim to siphon off the old stuff) and cleaning up the rim bed and drying before putting the new tape on.

Now I've got pretty quick at doing all this but not as quick as it would be without the tape bit.

So, am I doing something wrong? Does everyone have to do this or is it just me? This seems to be required regardless of what tyre or rim I use (Hutchinson, IRC, Schwalbe for the tyres, and either Pacenti SL23 or Velocity A23s for the rims).

Thanks for any thoughts.

Like some I just remove the valve core and then inject the sealant in. Simples really.

Using orange sealant and do it every half a year.

stanthomas

The Rookie wrote:

Never had sealant dry out in 3 months! I change the tyres summer to winter on my MTB, and the sealant has never been less than box fresh after that time, depending on the weather the sealant will be upto about 9 months old. It will dry out eventually but not sure what shite quality are using for it to be dry in 3 months.

Stan's - couldn't use anything else really . And I find it works very well.

I didn't say it dries out fully in 3 months, just that the liquid that remains is less efective at sealing holes. I don't routinely put sealant in the tyre anymore. But, when I did, I noticed that the puncture 'repair' was rather leaky when the sealant had been in there a few months and a shot of fresh stuff was needed. I also put the bare minimum in so it's possible that this was more noticeable in my case. I guess your mileage may vary.

stanthomas

hsiaolc wrote:

Using orange sealant and do it every half a year.

I've seen good reviews of Orange. Where do you get it in the UK?

cycleclinic

I have found this also - holes that semi seal then add more selant and bingo they seal fully. Not sure why or even how it can go off but adding sealant once in a while does help.

964cup

It's not so much the drying out, although that happens - it's the using up. London commuting means you puncture every other week - that's the whole point of tubeless: you can puncture and not notice, but it does of course use up some sealant closing the hole. When I look over my tyres, the number of cuts and holes is genuinely astonishing (Hutchinson Intensives too, so not soft race tyres or anything). I top the sealant up to be sure it'll carry on being effective.