If you are considering carbon clinchers you need to watch this...

cycleclinic

I am not partcipating as such with my views except the OP post a video that backs up his views only. There this thread is about his predujice to all carbon clinchers but as we know they are not all equal and not all riders are equal. so the video and the thread helps little but it does scare.

Retailers should be handing out honest balanced advise to customers anyway. It is also up to the customer to ask the questions.

How long are you going to bang this drum pilot pete? If these type of wheels are not for you that is fine. There are for racing anyway. that what my set are for, although they are good wheels to ride simply due to the long wear life of the brake track.

imposter2.0

Pilot Pete wrote:

I descend extremely fast. Using correct braking technique letting the bike run, braking hard before the bend, releasing the brakes and taking the corner using the apex and letting the bike run to the next bend. Explain where the braking technique is wrong if you can.

Your braking technique is wrong, because your wheels delaminated. Sounds like you were putting far too much friction/heat into the rims/pads by doing all your braking hard, and in one go. Another option is to brake little and often - your terminal speed may be lower, but your average would probably work out the same and your rims would not get the chance to heat up so much and would also get more opportunity to cool down, from a lower temperature. You did ask...

pilot_pete

Imposter wrote:

Your braking technique is wrong, because your wheels delaminated.

Never heard such a rediculous statement. :roll:

Making this thread a discussion about me is pointless. It was meant to illicit a response about the video, so unless people want to engage in a discussion about that then I shall not bother replying as it doesnt make any difference anyway as the armchair experts seem to jump to every conclusion possible.

thecycleclinic wrote:

I am not partcipating as such with my views.

Oh, but then you do. :?:

thecycleclinic wrote:

so the video and the thread helps little but it does scare.

Scare? What, an industry expert gives his considered opinion based on testing and real world experiences and because you sell these rims you put it down to scaring people? Are you refuting what the man says as incorrect? He is not trying to scare, he is offering opinion which people can take or ignore, but if they ignore it then that is not a very sensible position to take. It looks like you are just worried about potential lost sales.

thecycleclinic wrote:

Retailers should be handing out honest balanced advise to customers anyway.

We agree. But a GOOD retailer would ask the questions of the individual regarding use, not just say the customer didn't ask therefore I won't tell them that these wheels may not be suitable for their intended use.

thecycleclinic wrote:

There are for racing anyway.

And all retailers will only sell them for this explicit purpose or at least warn customers about this limitation? Never seen any carbon clinchers advertised for racing only and indeed tubs tend to be preferred for racing from what I can see.

PP

imposter2.0

Pilot Pete wrote:

Imposter wrote:

Your braking technique is wrong, because your wheels delaminated.

Never heard such a rediculous statement. :roll:

Making this thread a discussion about me is pointless. It was meant to illicit a response about the video, so unless people want to engage in a discussion about that then I shall not bother replying as it doesnt make any difference anyway as the armchair experts seem to jump to every conclusion possible.

You asked for a critique of your braking technique, which is what you got. You come across as very arrogant on this thread. If you don't want the discussion to be about you, just stop flaming people when they disagree with you and accept there are usually two sides to every story.

charlie_potatoes

Incorrect pad positioning can be a contributing factor.

pilot_pete

Imposter wrote:

If you don't want the discussion to be about you, just stop flaming people when they disagree with you and accept there are usually two sides to every story.

The problem is nobody has actually offered any fact regarding the other side of the story. It's strange that you feel it is acceptable for them to jump to all sorts of conclusions and cast dispersions about me but you feel I shouldn't actually reply.

If someone actually posted something evidential to counter the video it might be worth listening to. So far nobody has done that, they just keep playing the man not the ball...

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

Incorrect pad positioning can be a contributing factor.

very true.

PP

ugo.santalucia

I guess the evidence against the video are the thousands of riders that escape death on carbon clinchers on a daily basis. Personally I don't like them, but you have to admit the industry is reluctant to spend money in court and they generally only release products that are as safe as they can be... That is the major players at least... What Chinese brands with no stickers it is a different story. There are not many stories of zipp, mavic or enve delaminating

stueys

Carbon clinchers have come on leaps and bounds since the early versions, improved resins and specific brake pads have all helped. Having said that the design inherently means that the performance margins will be narrower than something like a traditional tub. The vast majority of rides will never go near the performance constraints.

I've seen people blow alu rims out through poor braking technique, it's a risk with all rim brakes, the difference is that the tolerances on alu are higher than carbon. Like everything in life, people should have a basic understanding of what they are buying and how to use it.

I ride carbon clinchers most of the time, I do swap them out for alu rims when I hit the mountains but that's due to wet weather braking performance on steep descents. Out of all my trips I can only think of one ride where traffic conditions meant I was descending hard on the brakes and I was twitchy about heat build up. I stopped mid-way to let things cool.

DeVlaeminck

Mate of mine wrecked a set of Eastons descending Alpe D'Huez last year so it can happen to brands - I've also known someone cook a set of wheels on a much shorter UK descent although that was in the early days of carbon clinchers.

I suppose where you lay the blame depends on your expectations of a set of wheels and of the skills of the average rider in tackling an Alpine descent.

iPete

If only there was somewhere else you could put the brakes that would let you run clinchers

meesterbond

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Mate of mine wrecked a set of Eastons descending Alpe D'Huez last year so it can happen to brands - I've also known someone cook a set of wheels on a much shorter UK descent although that was in the early days of carbon clinchers.

I think that's where I'd be slightly hesitant - some shortish, steep ramps followed by tight hairpins and a load of traffic means you're never going to be off the brakes. There a much nicer descent off that side if you hang a right near hairpin 4 (I think) - takes you up to the Pas de la Confessional and down that way...

For what it's worth I've done a number of alpine descents (Galibier, Telegraphe, Madeleine, Ad'H and others) on Zipp FCCs and didn't die at all.

thomasmorris

I think I've posted this video when it was released in another similar thread.

Braking is individual, and better technique can reduce heat build-up. But it's far too simplistic just to say it's just because of bad technique; especially when you've never even ridden with that rider or on the same roads. At the end of the day, if you have a steep hill, with a hair pin/ stop sign / sheep crossing / accident, traffic, you've got to stop and this means putting a certain amount of energy through the rims... there's only so much good braking can do.

Obviously, it's the internet and if you post such a complaint you're bound to get people telling you it's all your fault. And they may be right.

I delaminated a set of cheap carbon rims going down winnats pass. I knew beforehand that this was a risk on carbon clinchers, but it was an impromptu reroute. I had no idea of what the was like and it would have been suicidal to just let off the brakes hoping that it straightens out round the corner.

I still have carbon clinchers, but I change for alloy anytime I go to the hills. At the end of the day I want to be able to head down any road I fancy in the hills, not worrying if they will suitable for my rims.

Regardless of how good your braking it is, it's a fact carbon rims don't manage heat as well, so it's worth people bearing in mind that they will have a greater chance of cooking a rim on carbon clinchers. Depending on where you ride this may or may not be an issue.

BenderRodriguez

thomasmorris wrote:

it's a fact carbon rims don't manage heat as well, so it's worth people bearing in mind that they will have a greater chance of cooking a rim on carbon clinchers. Depending on where you ride this may or may not be an issue.

It's also worth bearing in mind that this is particularly an issue with clinchers, as the braking surface is effectively confined to a small extension of the rim proper, with nowhere for the heat to go except into the tyre, which is also problematical. On a tub the braking surface is just a section of the main rim wall, so heat can dissipate more easily.

Carbon wheels are by definition performance wheels and so should run tubs as well!

bernithebiker

Someone should make a video called '5 Good Reasons to Use Tubular Wheels"....oh, hang on...!