Wheelset Advice Appreciated

neilkav1

Hi all,
New to the forum, treat me gently as I am sure these types of questions get asked all the time 
In fact apologies just seen the previous post, which is similar, sorry!
I am mid forties, 80Kg and 5’10, and been riding for around 4 years now, loving it and getting fitter and faster all the time. Mainly do club runs and some very low key local races and some sportives. Got Birmingham and Cardiff closed roads UCI velo’s to do next year. Bike is Cannondale supersix Evo, ultrgra Di2 with stock Fulcrum racing 5’s.
Also been doing triathlon (sprint and Olympic) for around 2 years building up to a 70.3 half iron distance next May. Don’t want to spend daft money on TT/Tri bike – not good enough to justify that.
So using the one bike for everything, love doing both disciplines and have a bit of cash to spend on upgrade, undoubtedly the best return for cash is wheel upgrade.
I want something mid section, with either alu braking surface or treated carbon/special pads, as going too deep section whilst helping triathlon, would probably not make sense on long rides, events. Also want clinchers/tubeless as cant be fussed with tubs.
I have narrowed it down to 4/5 options at 2 different price points (£600 and £1000).
First question is would spending the extra 400 quid be a benefit?
Second question – thinking about going deeper at the back and slightly shallower at the front, hadrons and Reynolds have this option, to minimise wind effects, thoughts?
Third question is around what people’s personal experience/opinion is on the choices, and benefits of one over another? Damn sure any of them will give me 1 or 2 mph on the flat, so would be happy with that but just want to make the right choice.
I also know that wheels aren’t going to turn me into sir Brad, but got some cash and fancy the marginal gain along with the bling factor!
(PS I’ve also been looking at second hand, but tbh seems daft saving say 20-30% on used when I can get full warranty etc with new.)
£600 range;
1. Wiggle Cosine 55mm front and rear
http://www.wiggle.co.uk/cosine-55mm-ful ... 60710008uk
2. Campag bullet 50mm
http://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle-whe ... n=10864760

£1000 range
1. Reynolds Assault/Strike 41mm/60mm
http://www.probikekit.co.uk/bicycle-whe ... 99025.html
2. Mavic CXR ultimate 60
http://www.sigmasport.co.uk/item/Mavic/ ... -2016/9MS2
3. Swissside Hadron 42.5mm/62.5mm
http://www.swissside.com/shop/category/ ... ollection/

ugo.santalucia

neilkav1 wrote:

Third question is around what people’s personal experience/opinion is on the choices, and benefits of one over another? Damn sure any of them will give me 1 or 2 mph on the flat, so would be happy with that but just want to make the right choice.

A bit of simple maths.

Boardman hour record with full aero equipment, disc wheels and superman position was north of 56 Km

Boardman hour record without any aero equipment, on a conventional Merckx-like bicycle and conventional riding position was 49.440 Km


There are around 4.5 miles difference per hour in the two cases. Now, if adding 30 mm to the depth of your rims give you a 1-2 mph advantage, then I wonder why Boardman in full aero gear and superman position didn't ride 90 Km in an hour...

Seriously, a reality check... 1-2 mph out of deep section wheels alone is out of question. In the most favourable scenario, all things going your way on the perfect day you might get 0.5 mph

fenix

If you're spending a grand you could buy a tribike from planet x. As above - the position makes most of the difference.

In my experience - riding tribars as opposed to your normal road position (not down on the drops) gives you 1 to 2 mph for the same effort.

Vslowpace

Can't see tri-bars getting the nod of approval on the club run, and definitely not on the race start line.

As has already been mentioned wheels do not make that much difference, however they do look good. So I would suggest get the ones you like the look of the best and then concentrate on positioning and fitness to get that speed up.

BTW I guess most of us have been through this and still end up spending the cash. I did and bought Boras and while they are nicer than my racing 5 wheels the difference in speed in reality is negligible.

fenix

Thats why I said for a grand you could get a TT bike. He already has a road bike.

If the ultimate goal is to be faster for his triathlons - then thats his best improvement to make.

Oh - just noticed the bit about racing. I'd not worry too much about your kit there - invest in training - it makes far more difference than wheels especially if you are in a bunch.

Bobbinogs

Yepp, some very good advice above. I would not start by trying to find the best wheels in the categories you have selected but come at it from a different angle. Ask the question "what would make me faster at sportives, races and TT/Tri"?

The one common element is you. Hence, you then know the main answer.

Then think about each discipline and ask "what is the biggest bang for the buck"? Well, probably a decent helmet and clip on bars for tri/TT (and maybe a bike fit for a good aero position). Decent climbing wheels for a sportive (Ksyrium, etc. but bear in mind no wheels are really 'climbing' wheels...just some feel nicer after 100 lumpy miles), cheap reasonable wheels for racing (based on the likely crash here and there).

So, some targeted training and a few bits and bobs. ..or buy some bling wheels ( because most people end up doing that anyway).

mfin

Damn sure any of them will give me 1 or 2 mph on the flat

Damn sure none of them would.




Try getting a s/h TT bike that already has some deep sections in it, you'll find one for a grand if you look, I know as I've bought one for a friend at that and I've sold one at that and they come up quite a bit.

Of course, if you want to just buy deep sections, go ahead, you won't see much in the way of speed improvements on your computer or feel it. You might like the idea because of the look of them too, if so, no problem, only you can decide that.

ugo.santalucia

I suggest you buy Michael Hutchinson's book "faster" some very good advice about equipment, training and else and it is an entertaining read

sloppyschleckonds

Can you buy those wheels with motors in the hubs?

neilkav1

Great advice all,

Take on board the comments regarding speed, guess my point was on an ideal flat section during bike section of tri i should get 1mph maybe not 2, fully get that, from an aero wheel.

Already have tri bars (used only in tri's), borrow aero helmet and been training like a demon for 18m now - currently just about to start following Finks half iron 16 week plan, so fairly confident my fitness is/will be where it needs to be.

I guess the common agreement is that wheels don't make much of a difference and it's a fair point around getting a TT/tri bike second hand for a grand, yes that makes sense.

Thanks again for the replies, will probably get some second hand and just try them out, can always move them on if it makes hardly any difference, and will defo look at TT bike options at that price point, cheers.

Bobbinogs

Don't overlook getting bikefit assistance on TT/Tri as it can be crucial for many whether on clip on bars or a TT bike. Many riders think they are aero just because they go low/long but that isn't always the case and the other key factor is that whatever position you are in then you have to get the power out which is where a power metre can help...and there is usually a trade off for position/power as well. I know a wind tunnel is the ultimate test but many bike fitters know the basics so you shouldn't need to rely on a big drop of cash to get the basics right (like elbows, head, etc.). It may take several goes/experiments with position, ideally specific against the mileage planned because that is all you have to stay sort-of-comfortable for (and not a metre more)!

neilkav1

Cheers, have had standard road bike fit at the endurance store, but will defo lool to get specific TT fit as and when I find the right bike!

svetty

Best bang for your buck would be a power meter.....

Hanners

spend the money on either a power meter if you can understand the numbers and what to do with them or I would use the money on a coach, but deep sections do look cool on the club run

charlie_potatoes

Well that all went to form

MikeBrew

+ 1 for spending the cash on a power meter. The numbers just don't lie. They'll illustrate which gears and cadence give YOU the best returns in terms of speed, and thus objectively inform you when to conserve and when to expend, energy.

neilkav1

PM was next on the list lol, sound advice......

MikeBrew

Of course, you could always killl two birds with one stone with something like these : http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Powertap-G3-A ... SwA3dYPbLZ
That said, a crank based PM means you can choose your wheelset for the terrain on the day...

darkhairedlord

it's not about the bike, spend the money on peds

cycleclinic

While aero wheels at best will reduce total drag by up to 5% and that by itself is not big but real, it can start you on a process of setting you and the bike set up to be more aero and that makes a big difference. These sort of wheels are for racing really where the difference can mean you stay in the pack or stay at the front rather than fall of the back.

Also aero wheels tend to be very stiff well the good ones are and those wheels tend to feel "responsive". They feel good to ride.

*edit It is possible the aero effect is bigger than I think. it could be up to 2kph*
While the BORG50's i have been using for the past three years by themselves don't make me much faster ( a few tenths of a mile per hour) but they never the less are the wheels i have out the most miles on because they are so nice to ride and that is the main reason to buy wheels. also I do race and I need all the help I can get.

If you want to ride faster wheels tyres, clothing position are all important but some are far more important than others. A power meter however wont make you quicker. Training will but i am not sure how useful the power meters i have actually are. I have stopped using them to track progress and i dont use the numbers to train by ( they are on two of the bikes is use alot) and i seem to be improving without analyising the data.

The one thing i do know is spending more money by itself does not mean a better wheelset and you have over estimated the speed gain.

Pro's: and aero advantage but that depends what you are comparing them too, long brake track life (with the right pads they can last silly km), can be very comfortable due to the composite structure absorbing road buzz
cons: expensive, some rims do not handle heat built up well, some rims dont handle cross winds well most people dont need them because they are not racing.

Flip side if we dont care about speed we could also go back to riding bikes from the 30's and 40's.

charlie_potatoes

FWIW there is a video on this page where box section wheels are tested against aero..........

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/pro ... utm_source

cycleclinic

Well there you go a bit more than a few tenths.

charlie_potatoes

thecycleclinic wrote:

Well there you go a bit more than a few tenths.

I'm more inclined to go with your estimate.

neilkav1

thecycleclinic wrote:

While aero wheels at best will reduce total drag by up to 5% and that by itself is not big but real, it can start you on a process of setting you and the bike set up to be more aero and that makes a big difference. These sort of wheels are for racing really where the difference can mean you stay in the pack or stay at the front rather than fall of the back.

Also aero wheels tend to be very stiff well the good ones are and those wheels tend to feel "responsive". They feel good to ride.

*edit It is possible the aero effect is bigger than I think. it could be up to 2kph*
While the BORG50's i have been using for the past three years by themselves don't make me much faster ( a few tenths of a mile per hour) but they never the less are the wheels i have out the most miles on because they are so nice to ride and that is the main reason to buy wheels. also I do race and I need all the help I can get.

If you want to ride faster wheels tyres, clothing position are all important but some are far more important than others. A power meter however wont make you quicker. Training will but i am not sure how useful the power meters i have actually are. I have stopped using them to track progress and i dont use the numbers to train by ( they are on two of the bikes is use alot) and i seem to be improving without analyising the data.

The one thing i do know is spending more money by itself does not mean a better wheelset and you have over estimated the speed gain.

Pro's: and aero advantage but that depends what you are comparing them too, long brake track life (with the right pads they can last silly km), can be very comfortable due to the composite structure absorbing road buzz
cons: expensive, some rims do not handle heat built up well, some rims dont handle cross winds well most people dont need them because they are not racing.

Flip side if we dont care about speed we could also go back to riding bikes from the 30's and 40's.

Fab advice, thanks a lot, as i've stated before, my level of fitness by spring will be at the point at which I personally can get to without sacrificing normal life lol. My training is improving all the time with advice from the 'real' athletes at my tri club. My cycling is improving all the time for tri from the tri guys and generally from the cycle clubs i ride with. I may well look at PM numbers to see if theres any improvements there.

So from a personal level, I will be sure to maximise the little I have lol, it's then about having the right kit for the right event, tri bars, tick, decent bike, tick (might try and find cheap tri bike, we'll see), tight fit trisuit or shorts/top tick, right position (as good as my 47 year old body will allow!), professional bike fit, tick. So really what I'm left with is potential wheel upgrade.

Ideally (again I stress for my level) I would like one set of wheels I can use for tri and for longer sportives, but I know I may have to switch for training and some events - would only have stock fuclrum 5's to switch back to, so need to weigh up...

Also don't now want to spend daft money, so will just keep looking at sub £500 level, for a decent 'all rounder' if such a thing exists, might start looking at aluminium aswell - and might have to forget the bling factor lol.

Bottom line I just want to train bloody hard, have fun, compete with myself, do my best - the best that I can do, and not get too caught up in all the myriad of 'possible' marginal gains.

neilkav1

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

FWIW there is a video on this page where box section wheels are tested against aero..........

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/pro ... utm_source

Interesting even though I guess it was n=1.....

charlie_potatoes

neilkav1 wrote:

Charlie Potatoes wrote:

FWIW there is a video on this page where box section wheels are tested against aero..........

http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/pro ... utm_source

Interesting even though I guess it was n=1.....

Also it was a steady uninterrupted effort. Real world conditions would skew the results quite a bit I should think.

cycleclinic

They also did pick the least aero wheel possible for there comparison. If a fulcrum racing 3 was used the difference would be smaller.

If you want one set of wheels for everything then look at the Kinlin XR31T rims. 31mm deep 24mm wide not light but very stiff. Have them laced to decent hubs (good hubs dont have to cost alot like Miche) and vola one wheelset that you will use all the time. You could even go tubeless. 20F/24R is all you need with these rims they are so stiff and they will hold a heavier rider just fine.

A carbon clincher set can work well too I am still using mine now and I will continue to use them through winter.

neilkav1

Nice one thanks will take a look

ugo.santalucia

neilkav1 wrote:

Bottom line I just want to train bloody hard, have fun, compete with myself, do my best - the best that I can do, and not get too caught up in all the myriad of 'possible' marginal gains.

So you don't need new wheels then?

stueys

I've got years of data of riding my bikes across my local roads in varying conditions, all tracked by a power meter for the last 3 years. I think my 50mm deep wheels gave me about a 0.7-1.2mph advantage.

It's impossible for me to tell whether that was purely the rim depth, better hubs (CK45), traffic, weather conditions etc, etc, so it's not exactly scientific but it is the same roads, on the same bike (but with different wheels) and broadly the same power output (sadly.....) across repeated rides. The other thing I notice is that if I'm riding next to mates on a club ride my bike starts to pull away from them on descents, it's not normally me that's heavier.

The other thing I love about the wheels is the stiffness of the things, they are lovely to ride. Out of my three 'vanity upgrades' on the bike (deep wheels, di2, aero road bar) the wheels would be the ones I would keep if I had to choose.

Wouldn't disagree with the advice that others have given though, biggest bang for buck is always the rider starting with position. For tri a dedicated tri bike would make a big difference but it's probably only worth worrying about on your 70.3 distance; for the olympic and sprint stuff I would just make your everyday bike as fast/fun as possible and leverage that for tri, the bike leg isn't going to be long enough to get more worried than that.

neilkav1

ugo.santalucia wrote:

neilkav1 wrote:

Bottom line I just want to train bloody hard, have fun, compete with myself, do my best - the best that I can do, and not get too caught up in all the myriad of 'possible' marginal gains.

So you don't need new wheels then?

Spot the forum smart arse then...

I meant going any further than position, tri bars, bike fit, training, PM, and yes some reasonable wheels, which according to a few folk will give an advantage of maybe .7-1.0 mph, which i would be delighted with. trying to further analyse after all that for me would be pretty pointless. Anyhow thanks for the advice.