Top 1% of Britons own 24% of nation's assets

wallace_and_gromit

KingstonGraham wrote:

IIRC correctly, the maximum pot allowed tax free now is nowhere near big enough to buy the benefits that a typical middle/senior manager in a state scheme will enjoy after a full career.

It is £40,000 or 100% of salary in a year can be offset, and a max pot of £1million. That would buy you about a £30,000 annuity rising with inflation.[/quote]

So the maximum pot would buy a 2/3 final salary pension for someone retiring on £50k pa, so middle manager territory?

kingstongraham

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

IIRC correctly, the maximum pot allowed tax free now is nowhere near big enough to buy the benefits that a typical middle/senior manager in a state scheme will enjoy after a full career.

It is £40,000 or 100% of salary in a year can be offset, and a max pot of £1million. That would buy you about a £30,000 annuity rising with inflation.

So the maximum pot would buy a 2/3 final salary pension for someone retiring on £50k pa, so middle manager territory?

Just to correct the quoting...

But yes, seems about that. It's not completely ridiculous now, and I wouldn't expect that limit to increase with inflation. 1 million is a nice figure that sounds like it is here to stay.

wallace_and_gromit

KingstonGraham wrote:

Just to correct the quoting...

But yes, seems about that. It's not completely ridiculous now, and I wouldn't expect that limit to increase with inflation. 1 million is a nice figure that sounds like it is here to stay.

Thanks re quoting!

Whilst a tidy sum, the benefits one can secure off a £1m pot demonstrate that the current tax regime for those making their own provision is hardly a massive "giveaway".

surrey_commuter

KingstonGraham wrote:

Surrey Commuter wrote:

I don't understand what you are trying to say - I am reading it as "we should give people a tax break now so that they can pay us tax in the future" you will have to explain what you really mean.

There's a time in the future when I will not be earning money. If I forego some of my earnings now, and agree to lock them away so I can receive them later in life, I don't pay tax on it now, I pay tax when I receive the money. The tax break comes because I would have paid 40% on it now, but probably only pay basic rate when it comes out of the pension. Then I am not relying on the taxpayer to look after me when I can't earn any more, and because the money is somewhere I can't touch it, I can't spend it now on holidays.

The pensions reforms kind of unravel this a bit, as does the tax free lump sum. Also, if you want people to spend more now and let the future worry about itself (which does seem to be current thinking), you don't want to incentivise pension saving.

I want to cap at a rate that makes them non-dependent on the state, after that is up to them if they want to save for their future. I more have DB in my sights - which I would align with DC.

surrey_commuter

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

KingstonGraham wrote:

Just to correct the quoting...

But yes, seems about that. It's not completely ridiculous now, and I wouldn't expect that limit to increase with inflation. 1 million is a nice figure that sounds like it is here to stay.

Thanks re quoting!

Whilst a tidy sum, the benefits one can secure off a £1m pot demonstrate that the current tax regime for those making their own provision is hardly a massive "giveaway".

but it all adds up to circa - £50bn a year. We can not afford to carry on as we are.

Your middle/senior manager on a state sector defined benefit scheme is allowed a £50k pa pension as that is what they calculate his £1m pot at ( yes it makes no sense).

So as Graham suggests you could freeze the £1m for DC and align the DB so tax relief is up to £30k pension.

Frank the tank

Since this lot took charge the deficit is going up to 90% of GDP and the national debt has more than trebled all the time cutting public services and reducing welfare for the poor and needy, whist the wealthy get ever richer. Wages for ordinary people less in real terms than they were in 2008. No doubt at the next GE the likes of the sun will be telling its readership vote tory cos Corbyn can't be trusted with the purse strings and he don't sing the national anthem.
Keep a pensioner warm this winter..............Burn a tory!

ballysmate

Frank the tank wrote:

Since this lot took charge the deficit is going up to 90% of GDP and the national debt has more than trebled all the time cutting public services and reducing welfare for the poor and needy, whist the wealthy get ever richer. Wages for ordinary people less in real terms than they were in 2008. No doubt at the next GE the likes of the sun will be telling its readership vote tory cos Corbyn can't be trusted with the purse strings and he don't sing the national anthem.
Keep a pensioner warm this winter..............Burn a tory!

Glad to see you haven't mellowed Frank.

Still spouting bollox though.

letap73

Stevo 666 wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/22/brexit-vote-uk-household-wealth-credit-suisse

I'm not exactly left leaning in my politics but there's something fundamentally wrong

And they pay 27.5% of the nations tax at the last count so not exactly that far out of whack is it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

Some would say there is a strong argument that they pay far too much tax - there is a constant fear that these people could leave due to Britains tax laws. We cannot afford to lose our top talent from the city especially as there has been heavy expenditure in getting such people trained up from their prep schools to their education in top schools such as Eton/Harrow before they percolate at Oxbridge where they cultivate and establish links with the rest of the elite.

mamba80

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Since this lot took charge the deficit is going up to 90% of GDP and the national debt has more than trebled all the time cutting public services and reducing welfare for the poor and needy, whist the wealthy get ever richer. Wages for ordinary people less in real terms than they were in 2008. No doubt at the next GE the likes of the sun will be telling its readership vote tory cos Corbyn can't be trusted with the purse strings and he don't sing the national anthem.
Keep a pensioner warm this winter..............Burn a tory!

Glad to see you haven't mellowed Frank.

Still spouting bollox though.

Where is he wrong Bally?
one of the effects of lower wages has been the rise of tax credits, which is some 30 biilion, meanwhile, the avg pay of a ftse director is 5 million.

HB is 25 billion and rising, building affordable housing (affordable for whom?) is ridiculous as once they are bought, the owners can sell or rent on at market values, down here affordable housing get snapped up by land lords and rented out, what is needed is large scale social housing, it worked perfectly well in the past and it would work again, it was got rid of so the tories could win an election or 2, bad decisions for electoral gain is nothing new for them is it?

Social care cuts have stymied the NHS, i ve seen it with my own mum, kept on a ward, even though we were willing to care for her at home, no community nursing care providers and the only care home available was one that featured in last Mondays Panorama program..... again cuts to providers meant low staffing levels and almost zero control until a newspaper gets involved, why didnt the council spot this, its their money, yet they didnt know what was going on.

Malnutrition hospital admissions triple........ under the Tories.

this country is falling on many levels, yet as frank says, the wealthy just keep getting wealthier and for an intelligent chap like you Bally, i m surprised you can even begin to see it.

ok we can agree that the days of burning anyone has long gone!

Frank the tank

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Since this lot took charge the deficit is going up to 90% of GDP and the national debt has more than trebled all the time cutting public services and reducing welfare for the poor and needy, whist the wealthy get ever richer. Wages for ordinary people less in real terms than they were in 2008. No doubt at the next GE the likes of the sun will be telling its readership vote tory cos Corbyn can't be trusted with the purse strings and he don't sing the national anthem.
Keep a pensioner warm this winter..............Burn a tory!

Glad to see you haven't mellowed Frank.

Still spouting bollox though.

Cheers mate.

OK burning a tory is a bit extreme.

meanredspider

We might need to burn a few pensioners to keep Tories warm soon - was hearing yesterday that, in real terms, your average pensioner is now better off than working people.

rjsterry

Stevo 666 wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/22/brexit-vote-uk-household-wealth-credit-suisse

I'm not exactly left leaning in my politics but there's something fundamentally wrong

And they pay 27.5% of the nations tax at the last count so not exactly that far out of whack is it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

Any chance you might be one of the 300,00?

Jumping back a bit, this does rather illustrate W&G's point about the downsides of just jacking up the income tax threshold, although I'm sure many below many below the threshold would welcome the "burden" of earning enough to be in the top 1%.
That said, the 43% who don't pay income tax will still be paying plenty of VAT, council tax, VED, etc. so it's not quite as unbalanced as it looks.

wallace_and_gromit

rjsterry wrote:

That said, the 43% who don't pay income tax will still be paying plenty of VAT, council tax, VED, etc. so it's not quite as unbalanced as it looks.

Agreed. At the end of the day, £1 in tax is £1 in tax. But from what I've read, there is something different psychologically about income tax in that you earn a gross amount and then a chunk of it is taken back, as opposed to the other major types of tax such as VAT and petrol tax, which are "lost" in the purchase price and the purchase is semi-discretionary. Thus paying income tax apparently makes the payers appreciate/realise that it is just "normal" people who pay for everything and that the state doesn't have its own money to spend as it sees fit.

wallace_and_gromit

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Since this lot took charge the deficit is going up to 90% of GDP and the national debt has more than trebled all the time cutting public services and reducing welfare for the poor and needy, whist the wealthy get ever richer. Wages for ordinary people less in real terms than they were in 2008.

Glad to see you haven't mellowed Frank.

Still spouting bollox though.

Where is he wrong Bally?

Nothing in Frank's quote above is wrong, but he is a tad misleading.

Firstly, the major hit to the economy/living standards happened in 2008/9, when the Tories weren't in power.

Secondly, the Tories inherited a budget deficit of 11% of GDP from Labour, so even a genuine economic and fiscal genius would have struggled to keep the debt as % of GDP much lower than it currently is. No government can just "magic away" an 11% deficit, and as long as the deficit is greater than circa 2-3% of GDP then the debt as a % of GDP will keep growing.

I'd tend to agree with Frank's sentiments about the more extreme cuts, but as a nation, we don't like paying more tax ourselves, so we end up getting what we pay for.

Stevo_666

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/22/brexit-vote-uk-household-wealth-credit-suisse

I'm not exactly left leaning in my politics but there's something fundamentally wrong

And they pay 27.5% of the nations tax at the last count so not exactly that far out of whack is it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

Any chance you might be one of the 300,00?

Jumping back a bit, this does rather illustrate W&G's point about the downsides of just jacking up the income tax threshold, although I'm sure many below many below the threshold would welcome the "burden" of earning enough to be in the top 1%.
That said, the 43% who don't pay income tax will still be paying plenty of VAT, council tax, VED, etc. so it's not quite as unbalanced as it looks.

I make a similar point when people start moaning that big companies 'pay no tax'.

surrey_commuter

rjsterry wrote:

Stevo 666 wrote:

Slowmart wrote:

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/nov/22/brexit-vote-uk-household-wealth-credit-suisse

I'm not exactly left leaning in my politics but there's something fundamentally wrong

And they pay 27.5% of the nations tax at the last count so not exactly that far out of whack is it.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/04/26/nearly-half-of-britons-pay-no-income-tax-as-burden-on-rich-incre/

Any chance you might be one of the 300,00?

Jumping back a bit, this does rather illustrate W&G's point about the downsides of just jacking up the income tax threshold, although I'm sure many below many below the threshold would welcome the "burden" of earning enough to be in the top 1%.
That said, the 43% who don't pay income tax will still be paying plenty of VAT, council tax, VED, etc. so it's not quite as unbalanced as it looks.

As usual we are blighted by poorly written headlines. The top 1% pay 27.5% of income tax. 43% pay no income tax because the lib dems lifted them out of it (up,from 34%).

You are probably right about the more even tax take from the above sources but you exclude stamp duty on shares/land, inheritance and capital gains tax which will be paid exclusively by the rich. Also income tax is so disproportionately big that I doubt that stat will move that much.

Frank the tank

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Since this lot took charge the deficit is going up to 90% of GDP and the national debt has more than trebled all the time cutting public services and reducing welfare for the poor and needy, whist the wealthy get ever richer. Wages for ordinary people less in real terms than they were in 2008.

Glad to see you haven't mellowed Frank.

Still spouting bollox though.

Where is he wrong Bally?

Nothing in Frank's quote above is wrong, but he is a tad misleading.

Firstly, the major hit to the economy/living standards happened in 2008/9, when the Tories weren't in power.

Secondly, the Tories inherited a budget deficit of 11% of GDP from Labour, so even a genuine economic and fiscal genius would have struggled to keep the debt as % of GDP much lower than it currently is. No government can just "magic away" an 11% deficit, and as long as the deficit is greater than circa 2-3% of GDP then the debt as a % of GDP will keep growing.

I'd tend to agree with Frank's sentiments about the more extreme cuts, but as a nation, we don't like paying more tax ourselves, so we end up getting what we pay for.

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

surrey_commuter

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Since this lot took charge the deficit is going up to 90% of GDP and the national debt has more than trebled all the time cutting public services and reducing welfare for the poor and needy, whist the wealthy get ever richer. Wages for ordinary people less in real terms than they were in 2008.

Glad to see you haven't mellowed Frank.

Still spouting bollox though.

Where is he wrong Bally?

Nothing in Frank's quote above is wrong, but he is a tad misleading.

Firstly, the major hit to the economy/living standards happened in 2008/9, when the Tories weren't in power.

Secondly, the Tories inherited a budget deficit of 11% of GDP from Labour, so even a genuine economic and fiscal genius would have struggled to keep the debt as % of GDP much lower than it currently is. No government can just "magic away" an 11% deficit, and as long as the deficit is greater than circa 2-3% of GDP then the debt as a % of GDP will keep growing.

I'd tend to agree with Frank's sentiments about the more extreme cuts, but as a nation, we don't like paying more tax ourselves, so we end up getting what we pay for.

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

Are you sure about that? There are grey areas but are you sure the major hit to finances was the bank bailout?

Btw - US Govt made a profit.

wallace_and_gromit

Frank the tank wrote:

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

So why do you want to burn a Tory? That was on Brown and Darling's watch!

Frank the tank

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

So why do you want to burn a Tory? That was on Brown and Darling's watch!

I wouldn't, obviously. I don't particularly carry a torch for the Blair administration (Tories with red rosettes).
Those on here that know my political views know I have a deep seated hatred of tory politics. Some may say totally irrational, but we are all entitled to our opinion.

wallace_and_gromit

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

So why do you want to burn a Tory? That was on Brown and Darling's watch!

I wouldn't, obviously. I don't particularly carry a torch for the Blair administration (Tories with red rosettes).
Those on here that know my political views know I have a deep seated hatred of tory politics. Some may say totally irrational, but we are all entitled to our opinion.

OK. I guess we're unlikely to agree on political matters, but at least your position is logical.

So which UK political party of the last few decades meets with your approval?

rick_chasey

On this, interesting twitter thread, on the fact that the same set of women are repeatedly profiled over and over again in taboloids to stoke the fire.

https://twitter.com/RossalynWarren/stat ... wsrc%5Etfw

slowmart

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

So why do you want to burn a Tory? That was on Brown and Darling's watch!

I wouldn't, obviously. I don't particularly carry a torch for the Blair administration (Tories with red rosettes).
Those on here that know my political views know I have a deep seated hatred of tory politics. Some may say totally irrational, but we are all entitled to our opinion.

OK. I guess we're unlikely to agree on political matters, but at least your position is logical.

So which UK political party of the last few decades meets with your approval?

Probably.....

wallace_and_gromit

Citizen Smith was obviously a Tory stooge. I can't see Frank getting out of bed for anyone to the right of Trotsky.

Frank the tank

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

So why do you want to burn a Tory? That was on Brown and Darling's watch!

I wouldn't, obviously. I don't particularly carry a torch for the Blair administration (Tories with red rosettes).
Those on here that know my political views know I have a deep seated hatred of tory politics. Some may say totally irrational, but we are all entitled to our opinion.

OK. I guess we're unlikely to agree on political matters, but at least your position is logical.

So which UK political party of the last few decades meets with your approval?

An honest answer, a labour party lead by Michael Foot or John Smith..............Corbyn would get my vote tomorrow.
I now await a torrent of abuse, but I can live with that.

ballysmate

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

So why do you want to burn a Tory? That was on Brown and Darling's watch!

I wouldn't, obviously. I don't particularly carry a torch for the Blair administration (Tories with red rosettes).
Those on here that know my political views know I have a deep seated hatred of tory politics. Some may say totally irrational, but we are all entitled to our opinion.

OK. I guess we're unlikely to agree on political matters, but at least your position is logical.

So which UK political party of the last few decades meets with your approval?

An honest answer, a labour party lead by Michael Foot or John Smith..............Corbyn would get my vote tomorrow.
I now await a torrent of abuse, but I can live with that.

I would love you to get a chance to vote for him tomorrow.

Frank the tank

Ballysmate wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

Wallace and Gromit wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

The major hit was through having to bail out the banks to save millions of ordinary people from having their livelihoods destroyed. That's a different debate that has been done to death though.

So why do you want to burn a Tory? That was on Brown and Darling's watch!

I wouldn't, obviously. I don't particularly carry a torch for the Blair administration (Tories with red rosettes).
Those on here that know my political views know I have a deep seated hatred of tory politics. Some may say totally irrational, but we are all entitled to our opinion.

OK. I guess we're unlikely to agree on political matters, but at least your position is logical.

So which UK political party of the last few decades meets with your approval?

An honest answer, a labour party lead by Michael Foot or John Smith..............Corbyn would get my vote tomorrow.
I now await a torrent of abuse, but I can live with that.

I would love you to get a chance to vote for him tomorrow.

I'm sure you would, just so you could re-elect this bunch of total uncaring,selfish bast@rds.

Stevo_666

There's a thread for this type of discussion...

BTW Frank, I've already voted for Corbyn

slowmart

A bit like the simpsons sketch foretelling the trump presidency :shock:

Frank the tank

Stevo 666 wrote:

There's a thread for this type of discussion...

BTW Frank, I've already voted for Corbyn

I really hope you live to regret it.