The Big 3 Underserve The Market

mr_evil

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Isn't that just because the way you've defined range would mean a 14 tooth small sprocket would need a huge big sprocket in the upper right hand of your chart - probably too big a gap to work with most mechs ? Range would be better defined as the actual range wouldn't it - big sprocket minus small.

There is of course an upper limit because of that, but the available cassettes actually have smaller largest sprockets for 12t than for 11t. For instance Shimano do an 11-32, but only a 12-28. A 12-32 would have no problems at all, but they don't make one.

PBlakeney wrote:

I wonder Mr. Evil, what exact ratios would be perfect that are not available?

As I mentioned in the original post, I personally find 12-30 to be ideal for my current purposes.

pblakeney

Mr Evil wrote:

As I mentioned in the original post, I personally find 12-30 to be ideal for my current purposes.

And at the front?

mr_evil

PBlakeney wrote:

And at the front?

50/36. So yes, I can go down to a 34, but I prefer the way it shifts with a 36. I also have a second bike with 11-25 in the rear and 53/39 at the front.

webboo

I would have those of you with electronic gears would prefer having something like a 14 as the smallest sprocket. It might make getting home easier on one of those days.

mamba80

i m with Mr Evil, i'd like a 12/13 to 28/30, yep you can get them in a Miche but Shimano shifts better, lasts longer and is cheaper.

for those who say they need an 11t, thats fine but consider that a avg junior Girl can knock out a sub 25min 10 mile TT on a std road bike with a 14/28 and do a 110km and 1500m hilly sportive with an avg of 19mph, are we kidding ourselves?

chris_bass

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Mr Evil wrote:

When viewing them like this, it's quite obvious that the problem is that the entire upper-right quadrant is empty

Isn't that just because the way you've defined range would mean a 14 tooth small sprocket would need a huge big sprocket in the upper right hand of your chart - probably too big a gap to work with most mechs ? Range would be better defined as the actual range wouldn't it - big sprocket minus small.

Yeah, to get near the top right you'd need a 14-42 cassette

pblakeney

Mr Evil wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

And at the front?

50/36. So yes, I can go down to a 34, but I prefer the way it shifts with a 36. I also have a second bike with 11-25 in the rear and 53/39 at the front.

If you are happy with 39/25 then I fail to see how 36/28 would cause a problem.

Ben6899

SRAM produces a 10-42 cassette!? Or am I misreading the chart?

rick_chasey

mamba80 wrote:

i m with Mr Evil, i'd like a 12/13 to 28/30, yep you can get them in a Miche but Shimano shifts better, lasts longer and is cheaper.

I ride 53/39 with 12-30. Ultegra. 6700.

timothyw

Ben6899 wrote:

SRAM produces a 10-42 cassette!? Or am I misreading the chart?

It's for mountain biking with a single front chainring. They actually now produce a 10-50 cassette for their 12 speed system:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sram ... prod150724

Insanely expensive, as you can see!

Here's the more affordable 10-42 11 speed:
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/sram ... prod135801

You also need a special XD hub to use them.

This actually rather highlights the reason that Shimano et al think that chainring choice is a better way to alter gear ratios - 11t is the smallest that can be fit to standard freehubs, and so is a limiting factor. The size of your big chainring has no such limits - it can be as small or big as you like, within reason.

I suspect a large part of this is also down to market forces - more people buy 11-x cassettes than buy 12-x etc, so it isn't cost effective for them to keep producing them.

The initial graph is pretty misleading anyway, as it implies that 4x gear ratios are even possible with current 11 speed equipment and 13/14 teeth small rings - given that the top left of the graph is populated by weird MTB cassettes like the 11-46 shimano - to get the same ratio on a cassette that starts at 14 means a 14-58 cassette.

Hardly surprising that Shimano/SRAM/Campy don't make those is it!

The Rookie

TimothyW wrote:

The initial graph is pretty misleading anyway, as it implies that 4x gear ratios are even possible with current 11 speed equipment and 13/14 teeth small rings - given that the top left of the graph is populated by weird MTB cassettes like the 11-46 shimano - to get the same ratio on a cassette that starts at 14 means a 14-58 cassette.

Exactly that, to get a range of 4:1 with an 11 smallest means an 11:44, with a 13 smallest a 13:52, it will weigh nearly 20% more, use nearly 20% more materials and need the same amount of extra machining and will therefore cost nearly 20% more and weigh more, who would be stupid enough to want one of them? Plus you'd need a need more metal in the mech to cope and so it snowballs!

As it happens I run an 11:40 on my MTB.

DeVlaeminck

Mr Evil wrote:

There is of course an upper limit because of that, but the available cassettes actually have smaller largest sprockets for 12t than for 11t.

Are those for bikes running a single ring though - hence the need for a very small and a very large sprocket ?

pblakeney

How on earth did we cope back in the day with only 5 cogs?
Must be superhuman.

mr_evil

PBlakeney wrote:

If you are happy with 39/25 then I fail to see how 36/28 would cause a problem.

The two bikes are used differently. The one with a 39/25 low gear is a fairly normal road bike. The one with a 36/30 low gear is more general-purpose; it's heavier, has panniers that are often stuffed with heavy junk, and I take it to places where I don't want to be drenched in sweat. Even though I can get up the same hills on both bikes in about the same time, using a higher gear is stressful on my knees and leaves me dead at the top. I also use the 11t only rarely, and never need it. I should probably have a 12-30 on both bikes.

Ben6899 wrote:

SRAM produces a 10-42 cassette!? Or am I misreading the chart?

Not only do they make a 10-42, but it's actually intended for road use (with a 1x drivetrain).

clogg

Used to run a 11-30 ultegra 6700 10 speed but they stopped doing them for 6800/9000 11 speed.

I see that they have reintroduced the 11-30 in the new Dura-Ace 9100, pricey though at £230. Hopefully a more affordable ultegra version will follow.

rick_chasey

clogg wrote:

Used to run a 11-30 ultegra 6700 10 speed
.

You mean 12-30. I still run that.

11-30 never existed.

TBH, if you have a 53/39 you really don't need an 11 sprocket if you're bad enough to need a 30.

thomasmorris

Rick Chasey wrote:

TBH, if you have a 53/39 you really don't need an 11 sprocket if you're bad enough to need a 30.

Who's going to tell Contador?

If you do big climbs, you need a larger range of gears as you'll have a bigger variation in speed. If you're on the flat, riding around a small range of speeds you can get tighter gears to allow more precise cadence selection.

Being good or bad has little to do with the range of gears you select.

clogg

Rick Chasey wrote:

clogg wrote:

Used to run a 11-30 ultegra 6700 10 speed
.

You mean 12-30. I still run that.

11-30 never existed.

TBH, if you have a 53/39 you really don't need an 11 sprocket if you're bad enough to need a 30.

Yip it was an Ultegra 12-30, got mixed up with the new Dura Ace 9100 cassette which is 11-30.


http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/shim ... prod148205

rick_chasey

thomasmorris wrote:

Rick Chasey wrote:

TBH, if you have a 53/39 you really don't need an 11 sprocket if you're bad enough to need a 30.

Who's going to tell Contador?

If you do big climbs, you need a larger range of gears as you'll have a bigger variation in speed. If you're on the flat, riding around a small range of speeds you can get tighter gears to allow more precise cadence selection.

Being good or bad has little to do with the range of gears you select.

Alright, if you're hooning it up long 30% climbs. :roll:

If you're doing big climbs I still don't see what the 11 adds. A bit of pedalling downhill?

If you need 30 to get up your usual hill you won't be using the 11 when you're sprinting. FWIW Merckx never used an 11 either, and he was fast enough.

pblakeney

IMO, an 11 tooth is useful if you use Compact. Not so much on a Standard.
Maybe the big 3 are telling us we are not "man enough" for Standard.