Sanity Check - Expanding Foam

Sightblinder

Hi All,

TL;DR - Is it normal for bike manufacturers to use expanding foam inside their frames?

I'm currently "in discussions" with a well known UK bike manufacturer / retailer about a problem with the frame of a bike I bought from them

I took it into my local bike shop a few weeks ago for a service. Full strip down and rebuild, new cables etc. It's a carbon frame with internal cable routing. I got a call from them a couple of days later to tell me that they were unable to replace the rear mech cable as the internal cable guide had worn. Normally they would replace this as part of the service but they were unable to do so as the bottom bracket area of the frame has been filled with expanding foam. As a result they were unable to remove the internal guides, and even if they could would be unable to fit new ones because of the foam filling the frame.

Having taken the frame back to the manufacturer they then told me that as the frame was out of warranty they were not going to do anything about it but would sell me a new frame at a discount. They claim the issue was due to water ingress in the frame corroding the cable guides and that they were not intended to be replaceable. It was basically my fault for letting it get wet. I made the point that the issue was caused by their use of expanding foam and that if it weren't for that the guides would be replaceable as part of a normal service routine. They have consistently refused to admit there is any issue and stuck to their offer of a discount on a new frame rather than trying to put it right or replace it.

Based on advice from Trading Standards, my next step is to threaten to take them to the small claims court to recover the cost of the bike. My question is, is it normal for manufacturers to use expanding foam inside frames in this way?

Thanks for any advice or info.

fenix

Never heard of any manufacturer that uses expanding foam in a frame.

Was this there from the start or has a bike shop done this at any point as part of a repair ?

Why the cost of a bike when the only issue is the frame ?

Sightblinder

Foam was there when I bought it but only came to light when it went in for a service. Prior to that I'd done all the maintenance myself.

Based on advice from Trading Standards the frame is an integral component of the bike so any claims should be based on the original cost of the bike as a whole. If I'd bought the frame and components separately then I would only claim for the frame. I've tried to get them to replace the frame due to it being unfit for purpose as it can't be serviced but they have refused.

buckmulligan

Sightblinder wrote:

It was basically my fault for letting it get wet.

You sound bang to rights!

What frame is it?

Sightblinder

Don't want to name the brand at this point, just in case it causes issues given that I may have to take them to court, but they are a well known UK brand.

fenix

Whyever not ? Its just a statement of fact. Maybe other owners can verify this for you - but without the brand....

slowbike

Fenix wrote:

Whyever not ? Its just a statement of fact. Maybe other owners can verify this for you - but without the brand....

Because the OP has gone further than just said that his frame is filled with expanding foam and is this normal ...

Perhaps if people do have frames with expanding foam in (and they've noticed) they could post the make, model & year.

I'm not aware of any of the bikes in my garage having expanding foam inside - not sure what purpose expanding foam would have, other than to increase weight and (if it's not the right expanding foam) soak up water. 2 of the bikes are UK badged - one is a Ribble TT frame with internal routing - but quite an elderly frame, the other is an Orro - much newer, internal routing - can't say I've noticed any foam, but then I've not had to change any cables on that one yet.

fenix

Without the brand being mentioned though - you'll not get that many people responding.

If you have a thread called - "Bike XXX owners - is your frame full of foam ?" then I'm sure you'll get a lot more replies.

I've never had a frame with foam in nor heard of any frame with it in. I'm suspecting it might be some sort of bodged repair ?

arthur_scrimshaw

I was speaking to a mechanic from a bike shop, he'd stopped to check out a noise coming from a brand new Argon 18 carbon bike with internal cabling. He told me it had polystyrene (or similar) packing inside the frame to prevent the cables from rattling. May be more common than you think?

Sightblinder

Slowbike wrote:

Fenix wrote:

Whyever not ? Its just a statement of fact. Maybe other owners can verify this for you - but without the brand....

Because the OP has gone further than just said that his frame is filled with expanding foam and is this normal ...

Perhaps if people do have frames with expanding foam in (and they've noticed) they could post the make, model & year.

I'm not aware of any of the bikes in my garage having expanding foam inside - not sure what purpose expanding foam would have, other than to increase weight and (if it's not the right expanding foam) soak up water. 2 of the bikes are UK badged - one is a Ribble TT frame with internal routing - but quite an elderly frame, the other is an Orro - much newer, internal routing - can't say I've noticed any foam, but then I've not had to change any cables on that one yet.

Thanks slowbike, this is the sort of info I was hoping people would respond with. Or at least confirm they have not come across it.

It's really just to confirm my own feeling that this is not normal practice if I do have to take this further. Once it's sorted I will happily identify the company involved.

It's not a bodged repair as it was bought new and has been in my possession ever since. I trust the LBS I gave it to for a service as the guy who runs it rides out with my local club and has worked on several other members bikes.

slowbike

Fenix wrote:

Without the brand being mentioned though - you'll not get that many people responding.

If you have a thread called - "Bike XXX owners - is your frame full of foam ?" then I'm sure you'll get a lot more replies.

I've never had a frame with foam in nor heard of any frame with it in. I'm suspecting it might be some sort of bodged repair ?

yup - appreciate that - had the OP just put that in a post then I'm sure he'd get some response - but would've probably raised the question on why it was an issue too ...

slowbike

Sightblinder wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Fenix wrote:

Whyever not ? Its just a statement of fact. Maybe other owners can verify this for you - but without the brand....

Because the OP has gone further than just said that his frame is filled with expanding foam and is this normal ...

Perhaps if people do have frames with expanding foam in (and they've noticed) they could post the make, model & year.

I'm not aware of any of the bikes in my garage having expanding foam inside - not sure what purpose expanding foam would have, other than to increase weight and (if it's not the right expanding foam) soak up water. 2 of the bikes are UK badged - one is a Ribble TT frame with internal routing - but quite an elderly frame, the other is an Orro - much newer, internal routing - can't say I've noticed any foam, but then I've not had to change any cables on that one yet.

Thanks slowbike, this is the sort of info I was hoping people would respond with. Or at least confirm they have not come across it.

It's really just to confirm my own feeling that this is not normal practice if I do have to take this further. Once it's sorted I will happily identify the company involved.

It's not a bodged repair as it was bought new and has been in my possession ever since. I trust the LBS I gave it to for a service as the guy who runs it rides out with my local club and has worked on several other members bikes.

The item should be "Fit for Purpose" - anyone selling a bike in the UK should expect it to get wet from normal use - so if the bike is less than 6 years old I'd say you've got a legitimate claim. Beyond that you'd find it difficult to claim, but making an item like a cable guide non-servicable is pretty dim IMHO!
From http://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/ ... rights-act

You have six years to take a claim to the small claims court for faulty goods in England, Wales and Northern Ireland and five years in Scotland.

arthur_scrimshaw

Anyone read my post above - not relevant?

slowbike

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

Anyone read my post above - not relevant?

nah - got you on ignore!

arthur_scrimshaw

Slowbike wrote:

Arthur Scrimshaw wrote:

Anyone read my post above - not relevant?

nah - got you on ignore!

That's a relief, oh hang on! :evil:

DeVlaeminck

No to my knowledge I've never had a bike with expanding foam in it - if you tell me the make and I've got one I might investigate a bit further. Internal cables are one of those advances in bike design I would gladly do without though.

crankycrank

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Internal cables are one of those advances in bike design I would gladly do without though.

This^^^ As a last resort there are probably chemicals you could use to dissolve the foam yet leave the frame and parts unharmed. A little research should yield some results. Easy to improvise another cable guide if the old ones are ruined.

fat daddy

they do make expanding foam remover .... its called "expanding foam remover"

even amazon sell it

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Everbuild-PURE ... B0012XDEM0

the question is though .... is the expanding foam in your frame made of the same stuff as regular expanding foam .... and is the frame a material that wont be damaged by the remover

The Rookie

oxoman wrote:

Unfortunately expanding foam is used in a multitude of industries for strengthening purposes, the most surprising one is the car industry. Ford used it on their estate cars behind the rear door pillars as prior to foam use they used to get stress cracks. Suspect it may be a fix to BB area cracking on whatever make it is. To the the OP You may find that a carbon repair specialist may be able to do something for you. Good luck either way.

Ford first used expanding foam in the 1987 Sierra Sapphire AIUI.

It does sound like a consumer rights act issue (which pretty much mirrors the SoGA in terms of fitness for purpose).

Given I have a 2006 frame which is still used regularly and I've only just retired a 2005 frame that is still useable but feeling tired (it's done over 6500 miles since I bought it in 2009), I would say a reasonable life for a bike frame is 10 years.

ravey1981

I'm going to guess here that the frame in question is a Planet X. Many of their frames are made with "EPS inside technology", and yes thats foam...

"Created with our 'EPS Inside' moulding technology, each main tube frame junction in the RT-80 is laid up over pre-shaped EPS formers. This allows for a more accurate placement of carbon in the mould, eliminating material wrinkles, creating lighter frames with enhanced structural integrity and allowing absolute consistency from frame to frame."

I dont see any issue with a frame having foam, polystyrene formers or whatever inside it if that is part of the manufacturing process... not sure how water could knacker the guides though, what are they made of?

sungod

aluminium + carbon fibre + water = recipe for galvanic corrosion

i'd guess aluminium guides

term1te

sungod wrote:

aluminium + carbon fibre + water = recipe for galvanic corrosion

i'd guess aluminium guides

Doesn't galvanic corrosion require two metals to be present?

keef66

Term1te wrote:

sungod wrote:

aluminium + carbon fibre + water = recipe for galvanic corrosion

i'd guess aluminium guides

Doesn't galvanic corrosion require two metals to be present?

Quick Google:

https://www.corrosionpedia.com/2/1556/c ... d-polymers


"Carbon Composites' Drawbacks

Despite all of the excellent properties of CFRCs, there are issues with using CFRC and metals together. Carbon fibers in CFRPs cause this material to become electrically conductive. The carbon fibers are electrically conductive and electrochemically very noble. Therefore, when a metal is electrically connected to a CFRP, it is more susceptible to galvanic corrosion. This situation becomes worse when a large surface area of carbon composite components is coupled to small metallic parts (such as fasteners, bolts and nuts). In these circumstances, the rate of galvanic corrosion is extremely high due to the high cathode to anode surface area ratio (Ac/Aa).

The galvanic corrosion of metals coupled to carbon composites is not a new issue. It has been reported since the 1960s. But this issue has not been resolved yet. The morphology and intensity of the galvanic corrosion strongly depends on the type of metal connected to the carbon composite, cathode-to-anode surface area ratio, and environmental conditions. In the following section, the behavior of different metals in this situation will be discussed in more detail.
Aluminum Coupled to Carbon Composite

Aluminum alloys are extremely vulnerable when they are coupled to a carbon composite"

It's the main reason I frequently take out my seatposts for a wipe down and reapplication of carbon assembly paste. Carbon post in an alu frame and an alu post in a carbon frame. I figure the paste will help keep water out and deter corrosion. Seems to be working so far and one of them is 9 years old now...

The other reason for the CF paste is it stops the seatposts slipping so I'm never tempted to overtighten the clamps

term1te

Well you live and learn.

veronese68

Makes mental note to check seatpost.
I thought this was the other thread in which someone asked if expanding foam was a good idea to silence a noisy frame, the consensus was it was a ridiculous idea. Still seems like a bad idea and a bodge to me.

Ben6899

Is this what happens when you ignore the advice "buy expensive aluminium rather than cheap carbon fibre"?

The Rookie

Term1te wrote:

sungod wrote:

aluminium + carbon fibre + water = recipe for galvanic corrosion

i'd guess aluminium guides

Doesn't galvanic corrosion require two metals to be present?

Carbon in many respects behaves like a metal, it has free ions (which is why it can conduct electricity) and that means it can be involved in galvanic corrosion.

buckmulligan

The Rookie wrote:

Term1te wrote:

sungod wrote:

aluminium + carbon fibre + water = recipe for galvanic corrosion

i'd guess aluminium guides

Doesn't galvanic corrosion require two metals to be present?

Carbon in many respects behaves like a metal, it has free electrons (which is why it can conduct electricity) and that means it can be involved in galvanic corrosion.

Ftfy

Monty Dog

Structural PU foam has been used in composite construction for decades, but maybe less common in bike frames - certainly used critical locations to distribute stresses. However, to design/make a frame that means that you cannot replace the cables is ridiculous.

The Rookie

BuckMulligan wrote:

The Rookie wrote:

Term1te wrote:

sungod wrote:

aluminium + carbon fibre + water = recipe for galvanic corrosion

i'd guess aluminium guides

Doesn't galvanic corrosion require two metals to be present?

Carbon in many respects behaves like a metal, it has free electrons (which is why it can conduct electricity) and that means it can be involved in galvanic corrosion.

Ftfy

Thanks, brain fart! I'll blame the time of day!

Giraffoto

There was a time when Bianchi used it (or something similar) in their aluminium frames. And it's a fairly common technique to build composite structures over a foam core. I do agree that it's silly to make it impossible to replace a part that's subject to wear like a cable guide.