Prison murder - irronic statement from family

slowbike

from:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-37708697

whilst it's sad that the bloke killed was a young dad - you have to look into the circumstances surrounding his murder - why was he in prison to start with? He was serving 5 1/2 years for robbery and had just been sentenced for 6 1/2 years for hiding a loaded machine gun in Enfield ...

and his cousin says: "I blame the prison, it's very disturbing. I just hope that place gets shut down as soon as possible because it's not safe"

it's not safe? it wasn't safe with your blummin cousin on the outside of prison - he robbed people and hid guns.
Did he deserve to die? No - probably not and I feel sorry for the child who will never know his/her father, but I find it hard to have sympathy for someone already on the wrong side of the law.

ok, you could probably come back with victim of circumstance, lack of choices etc etc - there's always a choice - it may not be easy, but sometimes that's the path you have to take.

haydenm

Slowbike wrote:

from:
Did he deserve to die? No - probably not and I feel sorry for the child who will never know his/her father, but I find it hard to have sympathy for someone already on the wrong side of the law.

At risk of opening a whole other can of worms, I agree with this to some extent and it's similar to my thoughts about the Mark Duggan case. Whether he was reaching for a gun in that moment or not he still had one, he was involved in things which will get him killed and the world is a better place with fewer people like him in it. When you go down that route it's hard to stop yourself condoning capitol punishment though and that isn't a good thing

veronese68

HaydenM wrote:

When you go down that route it's hard to stop yourself condoning capitol punishment though and that isn't a good thing

That's the problem with being a bleeding heart liberal, completely agree with you though.
There's a user on here that knew Mark Duggan growing up. He wasn't surprised at what happened and was very much of the opinion that he was dangerous.

slowbike

I agree - it's hard not to go down the route of condoning capitol punishment.

There are people in this world that need protecting from themselves - they have mental illness and are unable to control their behaviour - Many years ago I dipped into the world of mentally disabled children - some of whom were violent - imho, their carers deserve everything they want/need because there's no way I could do it - one day, with the aid of carers, was challenging enough. These children don't have a choice - that's the way they are.

There are those on the fringes who need care, who want help & care but are unable to get it.

Then there are those who deliberately flout the law and then suffer the consequences of their choices - if their choices put them in dangerous situations then that's their choice. If they believe they had no choice then the country should support them and try to keep them safe.

Of course, prisons should be "safe" - and that's a totally different issue on why weapons were so readily available.

joelsim

Funnily enough a new study by the LSE finds a very strong link between wanting capital punishment and voting Leave.

Tolerance.

capt_slog

Slowbike wrote:

and his cousin says: "I blame the prison, it's very disturbing. I just hope that place gets shut down as soon as possible because it's not safe"
.

Some people have a very different way of looking at things from the rest of us who think of ourselves as law-abiding citizens.

I remember a long time ago there was a TV debate about defending yourself in your home against burglars, (it might have come about because of that old chap who shot someone breaking into his farmhouse, but might have been earlier). In the audience was a chap whose brother had been killed whilst breaking into a house, his comment went something on these lines..

"[his brother] was a burglar, that was his job and they killed him for it! Would you like to be killed for doing your job?"

How can you deal with people like that?

rolf_f

Slowbike wrote:

I agree - it's hard not to go down the route of condoning capitol punishment.

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, I completely disagree on this one! I think it is always extremely easy to not condone capital punishment; it simply has no place in any civilised society.

The only place where I come close to this mind set is in dealing with the likes of Daesh where there is perhaps little point in taking prisoners during conflict.

slowbike

Rolf F wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I agree - it's hard not to go down the route of condoning capitol punishment.

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, I completely disagree on this one! I think it is always extremely easy to not condone capital punishment; it simply has no place in any civilised society.

The only place where I come close to this mind set is in dealing with the likes of Daesh where there is perhaps little point in taking prisoners during conflict.

I didn't say I condoned capital punishment - just that it's an easy route to go down - revenge is a simple human desire - someone hits you, you hit them back. Recognising that it doesn't achieve what you want is slightly harder.

rolf_f

Slowbike wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I agree - it's hard not to go down the route of condoning capitol punishment.

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, I completely disagree on this one! I think it is always extremely easy to not condone capital punishment; it simply has no place in any civilised society.

The only place where I come close to this mind set is in dealing with the likes of Daesh where there is perhaps little point in taking prisoners during conflict.

I didn't say I condoned capital punishment - just that it's an easy route to go down - revenge is a simple human desire - someone hits you, you hit them back. Recognising that it doesn't achieve what you want is slightly harder.

No, I know you didn't. I'm disagreeing on a personal level but I do take your point that that can be peoples reaction. Worth considering, re the Brexit thread, that had we had a referendum on bringing back hanging then that would quite possibly have succeeded as well.

slowbike

Rolf F wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I agree - it's hard not to go down the route of condoning capitol punishment.

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, I completely disagree on this one! I think it is always extremely easy to not condone capital punishment; it simply has no place in any civilised society.

The only place where I come close to this mind set is in dealing with the likes of Daesh where there is perhaps little point in taking prisoners during conflict.

I didn't say I condoned capital punishment - just that it's an easy route to go down - revenge is a simple human desire - someone hits you, you hit them back. Recognising that it doesn't achieve what you want is slightly harder.

No, I know you didn't. I'm disagreeing on a personal level but I do take your point that that can be peoples reaction. Worth considering, re the Brexit thread, that had we had a referendum on bringing back hanging then that would quite possibly have succeeded as well.

I know it's certainly one of my first reactions when I read about adults killing babies/toddlers - probably heightened because I've got a toddler at the moment and losing him would be my worst nightmare. I know I'd find it almost impossible to ever forgive whoever took him away from me - I can't imagine any other parent would find it any easier.

Anonymous

Capital punishment has no real effect on crime rate, apparently.

slowbike

coriordan wrote:

Capital punishment has no real effect on crime rate, apparently.

In certain circumstances it cuts the re-offending rate ...

tangled_metal

Slowbike wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

Rolf F wrote:

Slowbike wrote:

I agree - it's hard not to go down the route of condoning capitol punishment.

Whilst I agree with most of the sentiments expressed here, I completely disagree on this one! I think it is always extremely easy to not condone capital punishment; it simply has no place in any civilised society.

The only place where I come close to this mind set is in dealing with the likes of Daesh where there is perhaps little point in taking prisoners during conflict.

I didn't say I condoned capital punishment - just that it's an easy route to go down - revenge is a simple human desire - someone hits you, you hit them back. Recognising that it doesn't achieve what you want is slightly harder.

No, I know you didn't. I'm disagreeing on a personal level but I do take your point that that can be peoples reaction. Worth considering, re the Brexit thread, that had we had a referendum on bringing back hanging then that would quite possibly have succeeded as well.

I know it's certainly one of my first reactions when I read about adults killing babies/toddlers - probably heightened because I've got a toddler at the moment and losing him would be my worst nightmare. I know I'd find it almost impossible to ever forgive whoever took him away from me - I can't imagine any other parent would find it any easier.

I've a 3 year old. I've had a few nightmares about losing him before now. Very realistic ones that felt real. Once I had to get up and check he was still there. The thing I find about those dreams is how I never lashed out at the person who took him away. It was always about my child and the loss to our family. I bore no ill feelings to the perpetrator of our loss.

I take comfort from the fact that my subconscious through dreams backs up my conscious conviction that corporal punishment is wrong. I abhor the death penalty, I abhor inhumane prisons and I believe in the old religious adage about doing unto others as you'd have them do to you.

I just don't want another one of those nightmares!

Sciencemike

On the Today program yesterday there was a French guy who lost his partner at the Bataclan, saying he doesn't hate the killers and fights to keep the hatred at bay. Also in yesterdays news the relatives of the mother and daughter killed by the teenagers said they hoped the killers would be locked up and the key thrown away.
If anything like this ever happened to me I hope I'd be like the Frenchman (I hope I'd be strong enough)

mamba80

Prisons should be relatively safe, not a den of drugs and weapons, this guy might have been a nasty piece of work but didnt deserve to be killed in Prison, in a turf war.

lots of people do terrible things and can and do change, once your dead, that can never happen and his case, the revenge of his death will lead to more deaths and more revenge killings etc etc.

he wasnt a child abuser so had the possibility of redemption.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/triathlon/20 ... become-th/

My good friend had his child murdered, he never harboured a desire to see them hung, they are out now, and he doesnt care, he just remembers his kid and the good times they had before the murder, it humbling and i doubt i could be like that if i d suffered like he has.

slowbike

Fortunately no nightmares (yet) although I have had to get up quite a number of times just to check he's still breathing.

I believe in the old religious adage about doing unto others as you'd have them do to you.

Hmm - well that can be taken many ways ... I can appreciate the lenience for someone who didn't intend to cause harm, but for those whose intent is to cause harm then I find that harder to deal with as I would never deliberately cause anyone else harm (unless they were physically threatening others) - and the other old religious adage - Eye for an Eye, Tooth for a Tooth ....

Anyway - none of this is to do with my original post - which was the irony of a family complaining that a prison wasn't safe, whilst it was a member of their family contributing to make the world a less safe space.

rolf_f

mamba80 wrote:

he wasnt a child abuser so had the possibility of redemption.

A less controversial statement than it should be......

fat daddy

Tangled Metal wrote:

and I believe in the old religious adage about doing unto others as you'd have them do to you.
!

Luke was a pussy


the book of Leviticus ... laid it down in the bible how it should be

'If a man takes the life of any human being, he shall surely be put to death. 'The one who takes the life of an animal shall make it good, life for life. 'If a man injures his neighbor, just as he has done, so it shall be done to him:


at the end of they day though .... its a personal belief and feeling to if you require vengeance and retribution to get closure, some do and some don't, we shouldnt judge people on that, just accept that people have different ethics when it comes to punishment

Sciencemike

Luke was a pussy


the book of Leviticus ... laid it down in the bible how it should be

You're taking the Old Testament as your moral code?
Leviticus 25:44 : "'Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves.


Deuteronomy 22:28-29 : If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

etc
etc

fat daddy

Sciencemike wrote:

You're taking the Old Testament as your moral code?

Jeebus no ... I wouldn't use the old testament as my moral code ... I also wouldn't the 2000 year old new testament either ... both should be buried to the archives its freaking 2016 FFS

I just like quoting the other side of the bible and religion that people seem to aptly forget about


edit: .. luke is still a pussy though

"Luke 6:27-36

"But I say to you who hear, love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. "Whoever hits you on the cheek, offer him the other also; and whoever takes away your coat, do not withhold your shirt from him either
"
basically, if someone steals your Supersix Evo ... offer to pump the tires up for him so he is safe ..... pfffffft

ballysmate

I believe in the old religious adage about doing unto others as you'd have them do to you.

The law actually allows you to do unto others before they do unto you.

tangled_metal

Ballysmate wrote:

I believe in the old religious adage about doing unto others as you'd have them do to you.

The law actually allows you to do unto others before they do unto you.

TBH that adage taken from the book of Luke the pussy seems to me to be saying you do unto others first. By that you treat others well as you would hope they will treat you well in return. The thread drift was going along the lines of the act on you has been done so you get all biblical on their @ss in return (Deuteronomy I.guess but don't read the bible...since I.had to at school).

Personally I think you need your own standards and you try to live to those. Others have their standards that might seem irrational, violent, wrong but that's their level. At the end of the day the dead guy shouldn't have died, He should have been in a prison where The staff are able to ensure the residents safety, at least there life once under their care.

The burglar killed doing his job? First thing it's a crime not a job. Second I too believe he shouldn't have been killed. However that depends on whether there was any option. If a burglar was killed in a fight that the defender considered was."to the death" or could result in serious harm to themselves or family then under law that may be ok. I just hope if I'm ever in that situation I find some way to avoid death of myself and the criminal. I don't believe it's right for me to take another life but I wholly accept that's not everyone's view.

slowbike

Tangled Metal wrote:

At the end of the day the dead guy shouldn't have died, He should have been in a prison where The staff are able to ensure the residents safety, at least there life once under their care.

Don't disagree - my point (to say again) was that I found it ironic that the family of the deceased were complaining because the prison wasn't safe - when the crime he was in there for was to do with weapons that endager other peoples lives.

In the past I've wondered if the best prison would be one where guards secure the perimeter and leave inmates to it - but that would be condoning capital punishment!

Tangled Metal wrote:

The burglar killed doing his job? First thing it's a crime not a job. Second I too believe he shouldn't have been killed. However that depends on whether there was any option. If a burglar was killed in a fight that the defender considered was."to the death" or could result in serious harm to themselves or family then under law that may be ok. I just hope if I'm ever in that situation I find some way to avoid death of myself and the criminal. I don't believe it's right for me to take another life but I wholly accept that's not everyone's view.

Depends how the burglar was killed ...

If he had a weapon and was unintentionally killed during a tussle then I don't see that being wrong - but I suppose you'd have to look at it the other way - what if the home owner had a weapon (not unusual to know where the knives or heavy torches are) and the burglar (who came in without a weapon) killed the home owner ? You could conclude that the home owner was upping the stakes by being armed and therefore the death was unintended and let the burglar get away with it - or you could equally conclude that it was reasonable for the home owner to have some defence and he wouldn've have been killed if the burglar wasn't there in the first place - therefore find the burglar guilty of manslaughter.