Which wheels advice please

vince133

Hi

I am a relative newcomer to road biking. I have a specialized Tarmac Elite which I have been using for about 18 months. I am considering upgrading my wheels and have read quite a bit of stuff.

I use the bike to commute about 10 to 15 miles each way depending on my chosen route. I also do slightly longer rides upto about 40 miles. I am looking to increase my distance and average speed and believe wheels would be the best upgrade. Budget is flexible but probably looking at £500 to £700 unless advised differently.

Any advice or recommendations would be appreciated as it is a considerable investment for me. Thanks in advance.

Vince

diamonddog

IME more expensive wheels will have no effect on average speed or ability to cover greater distances they are improved by your fitness level improving.
An example here, on bike 1 I have wheels costing approx £700 and sub 1500gm with bike weight at 6.8kg on bike 2 the wheels cost £150 and weigh 1620gm with bike weight at 7.3kg, both bikes are carbon, my average speed and distance I can cover is exactly the same on both bikes.

jdee84

diamonddog wrote:

IME more expensive wheels will have no effect on average speed or ability to cover greater distances they are improved by your fitness level improving.
An example here, on bike 1 I have wheels costing approx £700 and sub 1500gm with bike weight at 6.8kg on bike 2 the wheels cost £150 and weigh 1620gm with bike weight at 7.3kg, both bikes are carbon, my average speed and distance I can cover is exactly the same on both bikes.

+1
My first road bike is alloy with a set of 1.9kg dt swiss wheels on it, i was in much better shape last year and haven't bettered several strava pbs on the same bike with 50mm carbon clinchers this year.

vince133

Hi. Thanks for your reply. Another reason for looking to upgrade is that I am having some issues with the freewheel hub on the fulcrums on my bike. They also weigh about 1800 grams.

Vince

imposter2.0

Vince133 wrote:

Hi. Thanks for your reply. Another reason for looking to upgrade is that I am having some issues with the freewheel hub on the fulcrums on my bike. They also weigh about 1800 grams.

Vince

So get the freehub issue fixed and carry on riding? As others have said, if you buy new wheels expecting to be able to go faster/further on them, you will end up disappointed. But you will still have nice new wheels, which is probably what you really want anyway.

Bobbinogs

1800g really is not a lot for a wheelset. IME, most 'decent' wheelsets that most riders in a club use would be between 1550g and 1750g...

Hence, an easy way to get your wheelset into the 'decent' category (and assuming you run standard inner tubes) would be shave 100g off the overall weight by replacing the inner tubes for Continental Supersonics, £20 for a pair. However, you may be disappointed to find that you don't suddenly fly up hills :-)

Decent tyres can make a massive difference so don't overlook that simple step, although this time of year is not the best to invest in race rubber (or expensive wheels for that matter).

svetty

New wheels can improve the feel of the bike and will make a marginal improvement but at <20mph will not be transformative. If you ride up a lot of steeper hills some marginal benefit from lighter wheels is always worth having.

mfin

Svetty wrote:

New wheels can improve the feel of the bike and will make a marginal improvement but at <20mph will not be transformative. If you ride up a lot of steeper hills some marginal benefit from lighter wheels is always worth having.

Don't assume he's a sheep who wants aero wheels. (He might well be though).

vince133

Hi all

Thanks for your replies. From the reading I had done I was under the impression wheels would be the best upgrade to improve performance. Along with decent tyres that is. I was thinking more weight than aero and perhaps going down the alloy route, thinking they would be more practical especially on the commute through traffic. I think the comment about wanting new shiny wheels might be true though.

mfin

You basically have to decide whether you want some, then decide from factory wheels or hand builts.

As far as weights go, factory wheels, £300 is enough to shed you 250 grams, £500 might shed you 350 grams.

Only you can decide if you want them. Good wheels with lower weight will make your bike feel a bit more spritely even if you don't go faster. It depends how you ride though, some people never really put any power down to accelerate much and some people won't tell much difference between different bikes.

Forget aero, waste of time for your riding (and most people's), but you've already done that bit of logic by the sounds of it.

If you go for it, aren't fat and heavy, and you're not bothered about keeping things going for years, with the bike you are on if you were gonna scratch the itch, something about £300-£350 factory built will not be overkill on your bike, say Zondas (which can be had for less). Or hand builts something like https://www.huntbikewheels.com/collections/road-rim-brake-wheels/products/hunt-race-season-aero-road-wheelset-1420g-28deep-22wide they also do a wider version. You could ask Cycleclinic to build you something up on the same rims (don't consider Hunt to be factory wheels, it's pretty standard stuff).

(edit: maybe not the Hunt's I mentioned, spoke count is a bit low for commuting pothole smacks maybe ...ask Cycleclinic).

pianoman

I was in the Giant store in Liverpool today to enquire about the new Trinity range but couldn't help but be impressed by the alloy "climbing" wheelset. They're only £350 and 1580g. Plus their wide rim width would take the sting out of potholes nicely. Why not consider them plus a set of 25mm GP4000s, Michelin Power Competitions or some other wide, fast tyre?

ajlowin1983

Order these now before the price goes back up - BARGAIN!!!

https://www.cycledivision.co.uk/product ... r-wheelset

pilot_pete

ajlowin1983 wrote:

Order these now before the price goes back up - BARGAIN!!!

https://www.cycledivision.co.uk/product ... r-wheelset

Do you really think so? Did you read the 'disclaimer' (the only way I can describe it) which basically says their hubs are weak and will fail quickly and therefore you need to strip and clean/ rebuild your freehub after every ride in the wet? :shock:

I lifted this from the link you provided:

Cero hubs are a light weight racing hub and some consideration has to be made regarding wet weather riding and deep winter use. The seal is a contact diaphragm and requires little maintenance but if moisture gets in, it won't get out and can therefore wreck bearings quickly. It is up to the user to keep on top of that. Neglect them and they will let you down, just like any other hub or any component on a bike.

Overall the frequency of bearing or mechanism failure is directly related to hours used and the frequency of the maintenance regime.

All the wheels in our range have incredibly light hubs with press in sealed bearings, contact seals on each end of the rear hub and a diaphragm seal between hub shell and freehub body. When it comes to replacing bearings they’re as cheap or expensive as you want - depending on quality. Fitting new bearings effectively gives you a new hub. Freehub bodies are available at £35 each for Shimano or Campagnolo pattern. They are all 9/10/11 speed.

There is no such thing as a maintenance-free component on a bike, sealed bearings etc do require care and attention.

Recommended maintenance before each ride:
1. Check for damage and excessive rim wear
2. Check for loose or under-tensioned spokes. Tighten where necessary or get a bike shop to do it properly
3. Make sure the wheels turn true and freely. Any resistance, check where it’s coming from
4. Change cartridge bearings if any excessive play develops.
5. Make sure all bladed spokes (typically Sapim CX-Ray) are sitting properly
6. Check skewers are clamped properly
7. Make sure tyre pressures are appropriate to the tyre/rim combination
8. Ensure brake pads are positioned and tightened correctly

Recommended maintenance after each ride:
1. If wheels are wet, wash gently with cold water
2. Oil and grime will need a gentle salt-free detergent
3. It is best to degrease a cassette and chain off the bike
4. If heavily contaminated with salty water or mud, remove tyre and rimtape and flush out rim
5. If water or contamination has entered freehub body, remove, clean & regrease
6. Clean brake track and pads or discs with a silicone-free cleaner
7. Make sure your wheels are dry! (Leaving bearings damp can lead to corrosion & premature bearing failure)
8. Clean around bearing seals and hub end caps
9. Re-fit wheel to bike, ensure skewers and brake pads are positioned and tightened properly
10. If you don’t feel confident about carrying out the work, speak to someone who is.

So, when your (lightweight 'racing') bearings fail a few months in after commuting in the rain, how receptive do you think that retailer will be in offering an exchange under warranty? I suspect the bearings will be trashed, you'd struggle to get them replaced under warranty as you had not followed their disclaimer above and it would be your fault that water had got into the bearings behind their evidently inadequate seal and you would end up out of pocket buying a different set of more robust wheels...

Also, depending on OPs weight I would go for a higher spoke count than 20/24 on a commuting wheel unless the roads he rides are particularly smooth. I know he has asked about lighter wheels, but lightness comes with a cost in terms of strength and robustness. And as others have said, lowering your spoke count and overall wheel weight by a few hundred grams is not going to make you any faster. Pushing the pedals harder and making yourself more aero will do that better.

Now, if you want robust, get some wheels built with Hope hubs. They are truly brilliant. I have them on summer best bike with deep section carbon rims and on my winter/ cross bike with disc brakes and aluminium 30mm clinchers. Absolutely sublime. Four winters and completely maintenance free so far. Can't beat that in my opinion. I weigh about 13st so couple that to disc brakes means higher spoke counts required. As a consequence I have absolutely bullet proof wheels, that don't flex laterally, are fairly compliant vertically, shod with 25mm tyres and I can still plough along on an undulating 100 miles at
about 19mph average solo.

PP

warrior4life

I have Cero AR30's and they're great, I service them every few months and I have no problems with them at all, they're strong, light and feel fast. I've changed 2 bearings in 2 years at a cost of £8 and about 10 minutes labour.
I've also got Syncros wheels with DT hubs that need servicing just as often as the Cero wheels.
I have Ksyriums SL's that I rarely ever service although I did have the edge of a pawl snap off recently, the Cero's are my go-to fast wheels whatever the weather.
The Mavics I train on and the Syncros are now relegated to spares.

letap73

Pilot Pete wrote:

ajlowin1983 wrote:

Order these now before the price goes back up - BARGAIN!!!

https://www.cycledivision.co.uk/product ... r-wheelset

Do you really think so? Did you read the 'disclaimer' (the only way I can describe it) which basically says their hubs are weak and will fail quickly and therefore you need to strip and clean/ rebuild your freehub after every ride in the wet? :shock:

I lifted this from the link you provided:

Cero hubs are a light weight racing hub and some consideration has to be made regarding wet weather riding and deep winter use. The seal is a contact diaphragm and requires little maintenance but if moisture gets in, it won't get out and can therefore wreck bearings quickly. It is up to the user to keep on top of that. Neglect them and they will let you down, just like any other hub or any component on a bike.

Overall the frequency of bearing or mechanism failure is directly related to hours used and the frequency of the maintenance regime.

All the wheels in our range have incredibly light hubs with press in sealed bearings, contact seals on each end of the rear hub and a diaphragm seal between hub shell and freehub body. When it comes to replacing bearings they’re as cheap or expensive as you want - depending on quality. Fitting new bearings effectively gives you a new hub. Freehub bodies are available at £35 each for Shimano or Campagnolo pattern. They are all 9/10/11 speed.

There is no such thing as a maintenance-free component on a bike, sealed bearings etc do require care and attention.

Recommended maintenance before each ride:
1. Check for damage and excessive rim wear
2. Check for loose or under-tensioned spokes. Tighten where necessary or get a bike shop to do it properly
3. Make sure the wheels turn true and freely. Any resistance, check where it’s coming from
4. Change cartridge bearings if any excessive play develops.
5. Make sure all bladed spokes (typically Sapim CX-Ray) are sitting properly
6. Check skewers are clamped properly
7. Make sure tyre pressures are appropriate to the tyre/rim combination
8. Ensure brake pads are positioned and tightened correctly

Recommended maintenance after each ride:
1. If wheels are wet, wash gently with cold water
2. Oil and grime will need a gentle salt-free detergent
3. It is best to degrease a cassette and chain off the bike
4. If heavily contaminated with salty water or mud, remove tyre and rimtape and flush out rim
5. If water or contamination has entered freehub body, remove, clean & regrease
6. Clean brake track and pads or discs with a silicone-free cleaner
7. Make sure your wheels are dry! (Leaving bearings damp can lead to corrosion & premature bearing failure)
8. Clean around bearing seals and hub end caps
9. Re-fit wheel to bike, ensure skewers and brake pads are positioned and tightened properly
10. If you don’t feel confident about carrying out the work, speak to someone who is.

So, when your (lightweight 'racing') bearings fail a few months in after commuting in the rain, how receptive do you think that retailer will be in offering an exchange under warranty? I suspect the bearings will be trashed, you'd struggle to get them replaced under warranty as you had not followed their disclaimer above and it would be your fault that water had got into the bearings behind their evidently inadequate seal and you would end up out of pocket buying a different set of more robust wheels...

Also, depending on OPs weight I would go for a higher spoke count than 20/24 on a commuting wheel unless the roads he rides are particularly smooth. I know he has asked about lighter wheels, but lightness comes with a cost in terms of strength and robustness. And as others have said, lowering your spoke count and overall wheel weight by a few hundred grams is not going to make you any faster. Pushing the pedals harder and making yourself more aero will do that better.

Now, if you want robust, get some wheels built with Hope hubs. They are truly brilliant. I have them on summer best bike with deep section carbon rims and on my winter/ cross bike with disc brakes and aluminium 30mm clinchers. Absolutely sublime. Four winters and completely maintenance free so far. Can't beat that in my opinion. I weigh about 13st so couple that to disc brakes means higher spoke counts required. As a consequence I have absolutely bullet proof wheels, that don't flex laterally, are fairly compliant vertically, shod with 25mm tyres and I can still plough along on an undulating 100 miles at
about 19mph average solo.

PP

It says nothing about that their hubs being weak but offers sensible advice - all hubs are eventually affected by water ingress without proper maintenance. These wheels are clearly not designed for heavy winter use - they are more summer or dry day wheels and from personal experience they are excellent for those conditions. The weight limit of 100kg is about right. The reason they are on sale is that they are superceded by the AR 24 which have a wider rim (the AR30 have a narrow rim - which on current thinking offers less comfort and handling capabilities then a wider rim with a 25+mm tyre.)

Bobbinogs

letap73 wrote:

Pilot Pete wrote:

ajlowin1983 wrote:

Order these now before the price goes back up - BARGAIN!!!

https://www.cycledivision.co.uk/product ... r-wheelset

Do you really think so? Did you read the 'disclaimer' (the only way I can describe it) which basically says their hubs are weak and will fail quickly and therefore you need to strip and clean/ rebuild your freehub after every ride in the wet? :shock:
...

It says nothing about that their hubs being weak but offers sensible advice - all hubs are eventually affected by water ingress without proper maintenance. These wheels are clearly not designed for heavy winter use - they are more summer or dry day wheels and from personal experience they are excellent for those conditions. The weight limit of 100kg is about right. The reason they are on sale is that they are superceded by the AR 24 which have a wider rim (the AR30 have a narrow rim - which on current thinking offers less comfort and handling capabilities then a wider rim with a 25+mm tyre.)

...but the OP clearly states that he will be using the wheels for commuting. Hence, buying a decent wheel at this time of year for commuting without factoring in wet weather performance and wear is crazy. I would actually make do with what I had and thrash the current wheels until Spring...then buy a nice set of wheels for the weekend and either a set of cheap consumable wheels for commuting or some decent rebuildable handbuilts.

pilot_pete

It says nothing about that their hubs being weak but offers sensible advice - all hubs are eventually affected by water ingress without proper maintenance. These wheels are clearly not designed for heavy winter use - they are more summer or dry day wheels and from personal experience they are excellent for those conditions. The weight limit of 100kg is about right. The reason they are on sale is that they are superceded by the AR 24 which have a wider rim (the AR30 have a narrow rim - which on current thinking offers less comfort and handling capabilities then a wider rim with a 25+mm tyre.)

Of course it doesn't say they are weak, but to put so much guff about how they will let in water and if you don't dry out the bearings after every ride (that's what they tell you to do) then you can't expect them to last implies to me that they know these hubs are NOT suitable for use in foul weather and will therefore not honour any warranty if you haven't followed every instruction, and even if you have they will say it was down to improper use in the wet...

My argument is (as Bobbings says), these wheels are completely inappropriate for the intended use of the OP and I stand by that.

I also stand by the fact that Hope Hubs are excellent in dry summer conditions and in foul winter conditions. Like I said, I have done four hard winters on my Hope hubs fitted to my winter/ cross bike. They still run smooth with no play whatsoever. All I do is hose the bike down after a ride and use a dry wash mitt to dry it off afterwards. Job done, no other maintenance required. No need to remove the free hub, inspect for water ingress, dry out and re-grease the bearings AFTER EVERY RIDE.

When they eventually need new bearings I will fit them, but in my opinion a maintenance regime of 'fit and forget' and they will last years is a huge bonus, especially for a commuter or winter bike.

Also, a really narrow rim such as the one fitted to that wheel is probably not a great idea on a commuter, especially a winter commuter. I have 28mm Conti Four Seasons on my winter bike, I have worn out a pair and changed them for the same again in that four winter period, with NO PUNCTURES during that time. Now that can't just be lucky...

The ride is sublime compared to 23mm tyres and they can be inflated to a much lower pressure, thus offering a bit of give over rough roads. So I still say those wheels are not a great idea for the OP, no matter how 'cheap' they are on offer.

PP

cycleclinic

And the rim is the Kinlin XR300. Horribly narrow and the rim is not that stiff either. I would say having built with those rims a few years back (when there was little else 30mm deep) that 100kg weight limit is a bit optimistic. more like 80kg. Also the fact they supply 3 spare spokes tells you alot about what they expect to happen. Yet folks think this is still a good deal. Spokes break so often of wheel folk think it is normal. also the 1399g+/- 1% make me laugh as the rims varied between 445-485g. The hubs they use therefore must be 250g/pair which is not true they will be heavier. the rims average 465g. Hub weight will be at least 300g/pair maybe a bit more. Wheelset weight will be 50g heavier than advertised. Not a big deal I know.

I'll give an example. A club member drop in today with his back wheel that popped a spoke on tuesdays night sudder laps ride I did. The wheel is off a GT grade (carbon). the wheel supplied witht he bike has DT Swiss 240 disc brake and stans grail rims, good kit but the spoke tensions where all over the place. After putting a new spoke in and tension ing up so the wheel is reasonably stright I find a 500N variance on the NDS spokes. Way too much. now some factory wheels are better than other but they are actually quite variable even when looking at the same model. so when looking a wheel look beyond the weight and the price and think what you are actually buying.

letap73

I have had my wheelset four years and would expect any variance in spoke tension to have caused issues - but there haven't been any and neither have I had to use the three spokes I was given. I am also 93kg so the hundred kg mass limit is perfectly reasonable from my experience. I do not use them as bad weather wheels - I stated as such in my previous post. These wheels have been out of stock a lot of times in the last four years so I know they have sold plenty of wheelsets and Cycle division as are a very good unit. I assume the Cero AR30 are being phased out as they are being replaced by the newer AR24.

mrb123

Provided the OP knows that any speed/performance gains from new wheels will be minimal, the budget quoted and intended use seem ideal for some nice handbuilts.

For that money, Dura Ace or the aforementioned Hope Hubs would be gettable. Plenty of rims to choose from, HPlus Son Archetypes, Ryde Pulse Comp, Kinlin etc etc.

I'd recommend you email a couple of wheelbuilders with your budget and requirements and they will give you some suggested wheelsets with prices and weights. Try DCR, Just Riding Along or the Cycle Clinic.

cycleclinic

I have identified the hub in those Cero30 wheels. it is the novatec F422. Weight 339g, therefore the claimed weight of 1400g is not possible unless they are using a different hub to what is pictured (possible).

Also spoke tension variance will vary from wheel to wheel. Some wheels will be better than others. It is possible that the Cero wheels are built reasonably well but unless you measure the spoke tension on a number of wheels you will never know.

Also my estimate of a weight limit is based on my experience of building wheels. one rider of 93kg may not have an issue but that does not mean another wont. I have built many wheels and wheel with lateral stiffness of those cero30 (I have built very similar wheels) have given some issues with riders much over 80kg but not with all riders. Therefore I had to remove a few builds from the range I do or alter there spec to ensure the issues do not re-occur.

I have not siad letap that the cero wheelset is rubbish but to look beyond the weight when buying.

vince133

Hi. Thanks for all your replies. Lots of useful information and different things to consider which I would not have considered.

I have decided to buy a set of Cero R30 from the offer. I was passing their premises on Friday and popped in. Found the guys at Cycle division really helpful. Will only use them in nicer weather based on the information passed to me by them. I am about 75 kg so hopefully weight won't be an issue as some have raised as a valid discussion point. I have also read a number of reviews and they all seem very positive.They discussed their statement on the website with me and seemed honest.

I will run my Fulcrums for this winter as I have now fixed the free hub. I think once they fail as they have done twice already I will look at buying a set of winter/bad weather wheels. The advice on looking at hand builds looks like a good option from the little bit of research I have done.

Once again thanks for all your help really appreciated.

Vince.

warrior4life

thecycleclinic wrote:

I have identified the hub in those Cero30 wheels. it is the novatec F422. Weight 339g, therefore the claimed weight of 1400g is not possible unless they are using a different hub to what is pictured (possible).

Also spoke tension variance will vary from wheel to wheel. Some wheels will be better than others. It is possible that the Cero wheels are built reasonably well but unless you measure the spoke tension on a number of wheels you will never know.

Also my estimate of a weight limit is based on my experience of building wheels. one rider of 93kg may not have an issue but that does not mean another wont. I have built many wheels and wheel with lateral stiffness of those cero30 (I have built very similar wheels) have given some issues with riders much over 80kg but not with all riders. Therefore I had to remove a few builds from the range I do or alter there spec to ensure the issues do not re-occur.

I have not siad letap that the cero wheelset is rubbish but to look beyond the weight when buying.

Its not a Novatech hub, the name of the hub is on the axle when you strip it down. my AR30's without rim tape weigh 1416g.