Wheel upgrade philosophy...

Jterrier

Hi all. Am thinking about a wheel upgrade as I believe (but have no hard data as such) that the factory set on my bike are probably a bit heavy, but more importantly the freehub is very slow to engage when racing as its a low cost item.

Anyway, the thing that is bothering me overall is that i have heard as many people saying dont bother, as i have magazines etc saying wheel upgrades are essential etc etc. So I thought I might seek peoples personal experience.

It is made harder by the fact that if i do upgrade it will only be to a better set of tubeless alu clinchers; i cannot afford carbon tubulars. The current wheels are mavic 29er mtb wheels to all intents and purposes; they are tough but feel like all the weight in the bike is in them.

Bit of an open topic i know.

ugo.santalucia

the slow engagement is something you only notice in very small gears, say 36 x 28 or smaller... when you are in the 46 ring you shouldn't notice it and same when you are on a 36 x 17 or so. Is that a real problem?

Lighter wheels in CX always help in a race... stock off the peg wheels are typically 2 Kg, you can get something a pound lighter fairly easily

VamP

Lighter wheels will give you a marginal return. Tubular tyres are a significant step forward. The Alu Pave tubular from Superstar are £200 and very good. Light too at 1350 grams. Combine with Tufo tubs of Challenge tubs for durability and you get best bang for buck that there is in cycling.

VamP

The slow engagement thing is a non-issue BTW

bendertherobot

VamP wrote:

Lighter wheels will give you a marginal return. Tubular tyres are a significant step forward. The Alu Pave tubular from Superstar are £200 and very good. Light too at 1350 grams. Combine with Tufo tubs of Challenge tubs for durability and you get best bang for buck that there is in cycling.

Have you got a link to those?

tgotb

VamP wrote:

Lighter wheels will give you a marginal return. Tubular tyres are a significant step forward. The Alu Pave tubular from Superstar are £200 and very good. Light too at 1350 grams. Combine with Tufo tubs of Challenge tubs for durability and you get best bang for buck that there is in cycling.

^ Good advice.

At that budget, don't discount the carbon option completely. Farsports seem to be discounting their 50mmx23mm tubular rims; I just built a couple of pairs for £250 each with Novatec hubs, and I *think* they'd cost the same if Farsports built them for you. Bombproof too; I rode one full-tilt into a hurdle yesterday, and it's totally unscathed.

VamP

bendertherobot wrote:

VamP wrote:

Lighter wheels will give you a marginal return. Tubular tyres are a significant step forward. The Alu Pave tubular from Superstar are £200 and very good. Light too at 1350 grams. Combine with Tufo tubs of Challenge tubs for durability and you get best bang for buck that there is in cycling.

Have you got a link to those?

http://www.superstarcomponents.com/en/p ... t-2024.htm


They have a custom build page too, so you can combine different components (say disc hubs) etc. I just bought a set and they are particularly good for cross as the rim shape conforms well to cross tub shape.

Moonbiker

If racing you need to 2 pairs of wheels the same rim width

VamP

TGOTB wrote:

VamP wrote:

Lighter wheels will give you a marginal return. Tubular tyres are a significant step forward. The Alu Pave tubular from Superstar are £200 and very good. Light too at 1350 grams. Combine with Tufo tubs of Challenge tubs for durability and you get best bang for buck that there is in cycling.

^ Good advice.

At that budget, don't discount the carbon option completely. Farsports seem to be discounting their 50mmx23mm tubular rims; I just built a couple of pairs for £250 each with Novatec hubs, and I *think* they'd cost the same if Farsports built them for you. Bombproof too; I rode one full-tilt into a hurdle yesterday, and it's totally unscathed.

They are destructible though. In the interest of full disclosure I managed to shatter my front one last year crashing into a stone wall in the Alps. It's likely that another wheel (carbon or alu) would have suffered the same fate, although I didn't quite have the balls to do a repeat trial.

I have moved away from carbon now for mud tyres, as the braking is worse and the lifespan seems less, so I run file treads and intermediates on carbon, and muds on alu, with a general mid-season brake pad switch over.

Obviously, this applies to rim braking dinosaurs only. There ain't many of us left I note, all of a sudden.

Jterrier

Going on from this, I did a semi geeky thing at the weekend and actually weighed and measured the wheels. Front was 1kg and rear was 1.16kg. I did find an interesting thing though; my cassette weighs best part of 500g (making the back wheel best part of 1.7kg built). So maybe i should look at that first.....

The wheels have a 20mm inside measurement so they fatten the tires nicely (something i like) but they arent tubeless ready; might have a go at doing it ghetto style and buy a lighter cassette (its a 10-42 xd job).

trek_dan

Do you really need that much range on the rear cassette? You could save 200g just by moving down to a bottom of the range 11-32.

Jterrier

trek_dan wrote:

Do you really need that much range on the rear cassette? You could save 200g just by moving down to a bottom of the range 11-32.

Yeah its what the bike came with but i agree; it sort of sends me on another train of thought wherein i change the wheels out and go for a non xd driver hub with an 11-36 or such. I like a good gear range but it doesnt need to be maybe that huge for racing. That would be doubly good as they would work on both of my bikes. It also removes the need to buy a wheelset that works with xd which arent that common. Then i can keep the existing set for days where i want to go for big range (i.e long distance gravel bikepack rides).

VamP

I use 11-28 for racing with a 38t single ring.

tgotb

VamP wrote:

I use 11-28 for racing with a 38t single ring.

^ What he said. I use 12-32 with a 38t single ring, but I'm a lot spinnier than most.

cycleclinic

The kinlkn tb20 disc brake is now in the country. That is a light disc brake tubular rim. They can be laced up to some decent hubs without breaking the bank. That maybe the rim that superstar are using. You are looking in the right places to save weight. Do the cheap stuff first.

VamP

thecycleclinic wrote:

The kinlkn tb20 disc brake is now in the country. That is a light disc brake tubular rim. They can be laced up to some decent hubs without breaking the bank. That maybe the rim that superstar are using. You are looking in the right places to save weight. Do the cheap stuff first.

They might well be Kinlins but they have brake tracks, so probs not the tb20 disc.

cycleclinic

erm well I built up a set on saturday. Definatley TB20's tubular rims with no brake track. The model is TB20S.

Why would you think I dont know what I am talking about. I bought the bloomin things.

VamP

thecycleclinic wrote:

erm well I built up a set on saturday. Definatley TB20's tubular rims with no brake track. The model is TB20S.

Why would you think I dont know what I am talking about. I bought the bloomin things.

???
I'm talking about the Superstar wheels you nut job. Take a chill pill dude

cycleclinic

Your responce was ambigous.

Jterrier

So after posting this, some of the replies made me think a lot and it all has turned into pandoras box. I have a load more questions which i accept are varied but there may be some that can be answered by knowledgeable folk here.

1) current bike uses 6bolt discs but i am guessing i can just as easily switch to a centerlock wheelset as the calipers dont care - correct?
2) i want to make it harder by buying a wheelset with hubs that can be adapted to every standard (both of my existing bikes plus any future frames) - who is best for this, Hope?
3) I want a tubeless alloy rim with decently low weight and an internal width as high as poss to fatten up my tires. Any recommendations?
4) does a rival 1 mech work a shimano 11spd cassette? And does an 11sp 105 rear mech work a SRAM road cassette? This means i can mix and match easier.
5) one of the downsides of using tubeless is the faff of changing tires so i am also pondering how good it would be to have latex tubes and 2 sets of open tubulars, i.e challenge ones. Does anyone else race like this?

Lots of thoughts. Any help appreciated.

tgotb

Jterrier wrote:

1) current bike uses 6bolt discs but i am guessing i can just as easily switch to a centerlock wheelset as the calipers dont care - correct?

Yes - unless you're using 140mm discs, in which case some centrelock rotors may foul the calipers.

Jterrier wrote:

2) i want to make it harder by buying a wheelset with hubs that can be adapted to every standard (both of my existing bikes plus any future frames) - who is best for this, Hope?

Novatec is one option that I know do this (whatever successor is to the D711/D712 is called. I have a couple of sets, I'll check later if no-one else knows)

devhads

2) i want to make it harder by buying a wheelset with hubs that can be adapted to every standard (both of my existing bikes plus any future frames) - who is best for this, Hope?
3) I want a tubeless alloy rim with decently low weight and an internal width as high as poss to fatten up my tires. Any recommendations?

I've got a set of American Classic Wide Lightning on my MTB. They do all of the above, alloy but lightweight 1570g per set. As the name suggest wide rims 29.4mm internal (maybe too wide for cross tyres, I've never tried) Hubs adaptable to all standards including QR and tubeless ready including rim tape and valves straight out the box. 9/10/11 speed and XD compatible.

Not cheap at £600. I bought mine for XC racing but didn't really do them justice so was thinking of selling them if you're interested.

4) does a rival 1 mech work a shimano 11spd cassette? And does an 11sp 105 rear mech work a SRAM road cassette? This means i can mix and match easier.

SRAM and Shimano mechs and cassettes are all interchangeable in my experience

5) one of the downsides of using tubeless is the faff of changing tires so i am also pondering how good it would be to have latex tubes and 2 sets of open tubulars, i.e challenge ones. Does anyone else race like this?

I've always found the Challenge/latex tube set up a very good compromise to actual tubulars. If you can't be bothered with the extra faff of tubs then you can run quite low pressures with the open tubulars and latex, lower than with tubeless even. Of course there's still more of a risk of pinch flatting than with tubeless but at the pressures you're going to want to run in the slop you will run the risk of burping with tubeless. Maybe one set of tubeless for early season with file treads/intermediates and one set of Challenge Limus with latex tubes for mud.

Jterrier

devhads wrote:

2) i want to make it harder by buying a wheelset with hubs that can be adapted to every standard (both of my existing bikes plus any future frames) - who is best for this, Hope?
3) I want a tubeless alloy rim with decently low weight and an internal width as high as poss to fatten up my tires. Any recommendations?

I've got a set of American Classic Wide Lightning on my MTB. They do all of the above, alloy but lightweight 1570g per set. As the name suggest wide rims 29.4mm internal (maybe too wide for cross tyres, I've never tried) Hubs adaptable to all standards including QR and tubeless ready including rim tape and valves straight out the box. 9/10/11 speed and XD compatible.

Not cheap at £600. I bought mine for XC racing but didn't really do them justice so was thinking of selling them if you're interested.

4) does a rival 1 mech work a shimano 11spd cassette? And does an 11sp 105 rear mech work a SRAM road cassette? This means i can mix and match easier.

SRAM and Shimano mechs and cassettes are all interchangeable in my experience

5) one of the downsides of using tubeless is the faff of changing tires so i am also pondering how good it would be to have latex tubes and 2 sets of open tubulars, i.e challenge ones. Does anyone else race like this?

I've always found the Challenge/latex tube set up a very good compromise to actual tubulars. If you can't be bothered with the extra faff of tubs then you can run quite low pressures with the open tubulars and latex, lower than with tubeless even. Of course there's still more of a risk of pinch flatting than with tubeless but at the pressures you're going to want to run in the slop you will run the risk of burping with tubeless. Maybe one set of tubeless for early season with file treads/intermediates and one set of Challenge Limus with latex tubes for mud.

Thanks for all that. I would have those wheels off you in a heartbeat but dont know if the internal width may be TOO wide for a cx tire. Might be interesting...