Bike crash with carbon frame - next steps?

barry_badrinath

I had a pretty serious crash on Sunday. Or more specifically, coming downhill at speed, I crashed into a car who decided to turn right at the last minute. They've been charged with dangerous driving. I am just out of hospital after some surgery on my chin / face last night. I've also lost 4 or 5 teeth at top front, so it's not been an ideal couple of days!

Anyway, on to the bike. The kind bloke who has been looking after it the last couple of days just dropped it back over and it really doesn't look that bad besides ripped bar tape. I'm gonna get it dropped into a LBS tomorrow to get assessed, but the guy there stressed he could only do this by eye and by tapping it all over and checking for the sound. To tell 100% he said you would need x ray or some form of scope thing, both of which he doesn't have. So what do I do if from his point of view, he says it's fine as far as he can tell? A lot of my cycling buddies are saying that it should just be written off, but surely I can't do that - that assessment must come from a professional right?

Am speaking with a lawyer tomorrow as well, and it would be good to have an idea of what I'm doing with the bike. New groupset only been on a couple of weeks.

craigus89

When I crashed mine it wasn't in a bad way particularly except a bent crank and scrapes on the bars etc. I took the bike to a couple of different LBS, neither of which was prepared to write the frame off, as like your experience, the only way to be sure the frame is/isn't cracked is to have the bike sent to the manufacturer for checking over, all at cost of course until the other party cough up.

If it looks good and sound on visual inspection, you will struggle to talk anyone into writing it off and as you say, it's not exactly something you can do yourself. Maybe you can find someone other than a manufacturer who can do the appropriate 'x-ray' of the frame (whatever that actually is, I assume it is a similar process that they do on all newly built frames to check for manufacturing errors and/or accuracy in the carbon?)

In my case I had two shops look at it both saying it seemed fine which was good enough for me as I wanted to keep the process as simple as I could at the time. I appreciate it's different for everybody though, especially if its your pride and joy or a very expensive frame.

Good luck, hopefully you'll heal up soon.

webboo

When I got hit by a car, the solicitor said they right off all carbon frames as a matter of course. I got a report from my local bike shop to say that as there was no way of assessing the non visual damage to a carbon frame but given the nature of the material you had presume the worst or words to that effect.

smudgerii

I'd follow the same principal I would with a crash helmet. 1 smack and it's a write off, the risk is too great imo. You cannot see the full extent of the damage with the naked eye.

photonic69

Large hammer? Just to be sure

neeb

Firstly, OP, sorry to hear about the crash - hope the stiches are out soon!

I think a bit of logic, care and common sense is required in these situations. No-one is going to tell you that the frame is certainly 100% safe, because no-one wants to be liable if it's not..

Can you remember (or can you work out) what actually happened in the crash? What (if anything) is the visible external damage to the frame? If there's no sign of impact to the frame, it sounds OK with tapping all over and feels OK when you bend it, then IMHO it's rather unlikely that there's much wrong with it. Carbon tends to fail catastrophically, so if it was stressed beyond its limits in the crash it would probably have cracked or snapped. The internet is full of tales of invisible stress fractures in carbon that suddenly cause catastrophic failures without warning at some later point in time, but I suspect that these events are extremely rare and more often that not there would have been some visible damage beforehand if you'd really looked for it. Steel and especially aluminium can also potentially fail suddenly due to invisible fatigue. Carbon frames are potentally subjected to all sorts of extreme forces in normal use and are designed to cope with it. Look at professional racing - the pros crash all of the time and more often than not just get back on the same bike the next day if there's nothing obiously wrong with it.

If you hit the car head on and want to be cautious (assuming there's no apparent damage), a good compromise might be to replace the fork. This is the part of the frame that's most likely to have been damaged and would be most likely to cause serious injury if it failed suddenly without warning.

<edit - of course for insurance purposes getting it written-off is the best option, and has been said no-one is going to certify if 100% safe..>

apreading

Just ask the guy in the shop if he is prepared to certify that it is safe to ride, on the basis that if it snaps on a fast downhill he will then be liable for any further injury. Cant see a shop writing up anything other than a recommendation not to ride it unless checked by x-ray first and to assume it is unsafe without that. Promise to buy the replacement from the shop of they need any added incentive...!

barry_badrinath

Cheers guys, all good advice. Off to see a dental specialist just now about my teeth, and will be dropping bike in after. Also speaking with a lawyer later about my injuries so will see what guidance they have there. Thanks again!

sloppyschleckonds

Its nonsense to replace everything after a crash
Skin and bones don't take an impact as well as carbon does

apreading

Yeah, but you can see/feel if there are any problems with skin and you x-ray bones to check if they are OK.

At the end of the day, the integrity of that carbon frame is what stops you from hitting the ground or another obstacle at upwards of 40mph on a descent. I personally would want it checked properly before entrusting my health to it again after such a large impact.

Perhaps the OP's failure was not to take it into A&E and get it X-rayed while they were presumably in radiology for their own x-rays...!

To be honest, the claim from the driver's insurance for the injuries is likely to be so large that they will not think twice if you ask them to replace the bike too. Hope things are improving and you get well soon.

webboo

Barry Badrinath wrote:

Cheers guys, all good advice. Off to see a dental specialist just now about my teeth, and will be dropping bike in after. Also speaking with a lawyer later about my injuries so will see what guidance they have there. Thanks again!

I would suspect the compensation you will get for your injuries/ teeth as well as paying for dental surgery will buy a couple of top of the range carbon jobs.

cougie

Bones will heal after a break. Carbon can't do that.

Carbon is strong but who wants to take a chance in a case like this?

smudgerii

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Its nonsense to replace everything after a crash
Skin and bones don't take an impact as well as carbon does

Comedy is alive and well.... credit where it is due you are a funny man

rolf_f

apreading wrote:

Just ask the guy in the shop if he is prepared to certify that it is safe to ride, on the basis that if it snaps on a fast downhill he will then be liable for any further injury.

But then if I was a bloke in a bike shop and someone came in with a bike they said that they hadn't crashed and that it had never been crashed, I still wouldn't be prepared to certify that it was safe to ride so for me that argument doesn't work.

svetty

If there is no visible damage to the frame or minor superficial scuffing I must admit I'd probably just ride it. Are the wheels still true?

sloppyschleckonds

Svetty wrote:

If there is no visible damage to the frame or minor superficial scuffing I must admit I'd probably just ride it. Are the wheels still true?

Likelihood is the frame/ wheels weren't impacted. It probably isn't the end of the world as the OP is still alive.

sloppyschleckonds

Smudgerii wrote:

SloppySchleckonds wrote:

Its nonsense to replace everything after a crash
Skin and bones don't take an impact as well as carbon does

Comedy is alive and well.... credit where it is due you are a funny man

Stick to posting about bodybuilding or whatever other nonsense you spend your time doing.

milemuncher1

Skip it. It's a gonner.

barry_badrinath

Got the bike crash assessment back today if anyone is interested. Verdict: Not written off.

I'm kind of happy because I love that bike, but also a bit disappointed because I was dreaming of a new Canyon. I suppose I still can get one of those if / when the compensation money comes through, but still.

This is what they said:
Frame has been given a detailed inspection. As far as we can tell in-store there is no damage to the structure of the frame or fork.
Alignment of both has been checked and is within manufacturing tolerances. There are no outward signs of damage in-terms of any splits, cracks or other impact damage to the frame or fork. There can be cases of carbon fibre being damaged and not showing any external signs of such. The only way to be absolutely sure would be to x-ray the frame. We have removed the fork from the bike to check the head-tube area of the frame and steerer tube of the fork and they both show no signs of damage. Normally we would also remove the seatpost from the bike to check the seattube and toptube junctions. This is not possible on this bike as the seatpost is seized within the frame. This is not damage caused by the impact, but is likely caused by the seatpost not being removed and cleaned on a periodic basis. As far as we can tell from the inspections carried out in-store, this frame and fork is safe to ride, however we would reccomend regular inspection of the frame and fork to monitor the condition of both. If any cracks or splits develop in the structure of the frame or fork, or if any audible noises are heard coming from the frame when riding, including but not limited to creaking, or squeaking noises, we would recommend to immediately stop using the bike and return it to ourselves or another authorized Bianchi dealer for inspection.

craigus89

All good then and as long as you are happy. I think people can sometimes forget the stresses and strains that carbon fibre is put under during normal uses, it's easy to imagine that it is as fragile as glass whereas the reality is very different.

barry_badrinath

I'm happy enough to be fair, but have a lot of buddies and other forums I go on getting quite passionate about how it has to be a write off and how this LBS has done a slap dash / arse covering job. I don't really see that. The way the crash happened my face and head took the brunt of the impact.

svetty

Barry Badrinath wrote:

I'm happy enough to be fair, but have a lot of buddies and other forums I go on getting quite passionate about how it has to be a write off and how this LBS has done a slap dash / ars* covering job. I don't really see that. The way the crash happened my face and head took the brunt of the impact.

Doubtless some will see these incidents as an opportunity to get a free new bike. It would be interesting to know how many who do this actually scrap the frame in question or whether these frames continue to be used (or sold on....)

apreading

My aluminium Boardman is sat in the garage since February with me riding a replacement Whyte, constantly pondering whether I am comfortable to use the Boardman again for commuting and over the winter - the need to answer that question is becoming more urgent as the season rolls in. The rear dropouts are out of line based on the alignment tool the bike shop used but I put a new wheel in (the old one was totally shot) and rode it around our estate and it doesnt 'feel' wonky. One thing that worries me is whether it will knacker the hub in the rear wheel if I ride it, but I think it is probably safe. Never thought about selling it on - dont think I could do that although it wouldnt surprise me if some people do - nobody would notice in my case unless they looked really hard.

milemuncher1

I wouldn't trust it even if it had been ultrasounded. Carbon Fiber doesn't do shock very well.

slowbike

Milemuncher1 wrote:

I wouldn't trust it even if it had been ultrasounded. Carbon Fiber doesn't do shock very well.

I regularly bent carbon fibre spars - they sprung back.
The pliability of carbon fibre depends on the material used - but generally it has a greater degree of flex than a metal equivalent.
However, without knowing the nature of the crash we can't tell how much the frame may have been stressed - so I agree that it couldn't readily be trusted - but the fact that a shop has said it's ok to ride - based on their physical examination of the bike - then I'd say it's safe to ride.

webboo

Flog it on ebay. Although I won't be buying any cheap Bianchi's for a while.

barry_badrinath

I called up Bianchi UK, and the guy was really helpful. He's echoing a lot of what has been said here and elsewhere, that he wouldn't ride the bike, and is going to send an email confirming that from their point of view they would treat it as written off. Now to decide what to do with the bike in the shop - still go ahead with getting it fixed? Only had the groupset on for two rides.

webboo

As I stated in an earlier post given the nature of your injuries you will have more than enough compensation to fund a new bike plus dealing with your medical/ dental costs. Just use your damaged or not damaged bike on the turbo and stop worrying.

apreading

Dont do anything to fix the bike up until you have settled the claim. Although the shop appears to have done a thorough job, which would be great if you had crashed at your own fault, they have done you a disservice - one with I am glad Bianchi are correcting. Get the money for a replacement bike and then decide if you want to take the chance on fixing up and riding the old one.

rolf_f

apreading wrote:

- one with I am glad Bianchi are correcting.

- by encouraging the insurance folk to buy a nice new Bianchi for the OP from, errrrr, Bianchi!..........

barry_badrinath

Rolf F wrote:

apreading wrote:

- one with I am glad Bianchi are correcting.

- by encouraging the insurance folk to buy a nice new Bianchi for the OP from, errrrr, Bianchi!..........

Hmmmm it will likely be a Canyon!