Numb hands vs poorer handling and loss of power. What should I tweak next, please!

Susec

Hi, I need a little advice, please. I have a Liv thrive 1. I'm a bit too big for it but the next bike I was shown was too big. I love the bike and was making great progress, returning to riding after a long break. However after 10 miles my fingers go numb - carpel tunnel problems. Sad because I otherwise found it so comfortable.
Anyway, I've changed the stem length and height, settling to a 110mm stem (the original was 90mm) with all the spacers at the bottom. Hey presto, so far no numbness. (I've changed the bar rotation angle, too).
But the bike feel is different - the way it handles feels less secure. Not as bad as with the 120mm stem I tried first, but still not wonderful. I can manage, though. But my biggest problem is getting the power back, if that's possible. I've adjusted the saddle height and that feels OK. The saddle is as far back on its rails as it goes. It has a slight forward tilt (I'm female!!)
Can anyone give me some pointers?? Have I made the right changes? Is it just the wrong bike?? (If it is I will have to live with it as its on a cycle to work scheme for another 7 months!)
Any advice much appreciated, thanks. I'm armed with a torque wrench! Sue

kajjal

If you have reduced the pressure on your hands and are not getting any back pains or aches that suggests you have the setup about right for the weight balance between the front and rear of the bike. The rest is just what suits you really.

One change to consider with any bike stem is if you flip it into the upright position it increases bar height while reduce the reach to the bars. This may or may not help you.

bbrap

If I understand correctly you have moved the saddle back and extended the reach by changing the stem to a longer one. This makes me think that you will be much more stretched out than previously. This may be why you are having problems with getting the power down ( it may put your knee/pedal relationship out a bit). As a 1st option I would move the saddle forward a bit and see if that helps. It may well be that you will not find a solution to all the problems as it sounds like the bike may just not be right for you. Did you try raising the bars with the original 90mm stem? I know it will not help but flat bars do limit your hand positions, drop bars for the next bike might be the answer.

cougie

How many miles have you ridden in the new position?
It may feel odd to begin but you might get used to it after a bit.

sloppyschleckonds

How are you measuring power?

Wheelspinner

Without being all stalker, it would be useful to have a side-on pic of you on bike, preferably with the crank on the side the pic is taken set to dead horizontal and in the forward (downstroke) position, and your foot on the pedal.

sloppyschleckonds

Wheelspinner wrote:

Without being all stalker,

Subtle

pilot_pete

Hi Sue

A bike fit is a combination of loads of factors and starts with pedal/ cleat position and works up to saddle and then forwards to bars. The reason it starts at the pedals is because they are fixed (unless you buy different length cranks).

When you have the cleat properly positioned on your shoe to get the position of your foot correct with regards to the pedal spindle you can then adjust the saddle up and down and fore and aft to get your weight distribution right and correct leg extension at bottom of the stroke to allow the power to be put down.

Once this is correct you then adjust torso and upper arm angle and reach by way of changing stem lengths and handlebar height with spacers/ stem angle. Your exact handlebar model affects this as some have a longer or shorter reach and shallower/ deeper drop.

Once you have this set you can then adjust the levers/ hoods around the bar and on some models lever reach and hey presto you are good to go.

The problem with increasing reach by moving the saddle back is that you are compromising your pedal stroke/ weight distribution in order to adjust the reach. The reach should be adjusted by way of stem length change, thus keeping your bottom half correct and only changing your top half (I.e. reach!)

It is all a bit of a faff, as when you change one thing it can affect something else so usually it ends up being set, adjust, re-check, see what else has been affected, adjust that, check again etc etc until everything it optimal. Now you can pay a fortune and have science applied through something like a RETUL fit or you can get someone who knows what they are doing to use his/ her eyes, perhaps some sort of angle measuring device, a plumb bob and a set of spanners! I fall into the second category and get great feedback from riders who say I have transformed their ride. So you don't have to spend fortunes, but a bike fit nearly always proves beneficial.

PP

ForumNewbie

It sounds like the saddle it too far back in relation to the pedals. It's best to start with setting up as 'Knee Over Pedal Spindle' - lots on internet about it. It might not be the full solution but it's a good starter - if your knee is behind the pedal spindle on the front crank when the cranks are horizontal, that may be where you are losing power.

cycleclinic

Without pics of you the bike we are guessing. Buke fitting actually starts with saddle height and saddle position then move to the cleats thr the bars.

Also longer stems are fine. I ride one bike (it fits perfectly) with a 140mm stem. I race this road bike without issue. My other race bike has a 130mm stem. I use a 130mm stem on a 29er and the handling is spot on. You get used it to it if i used a shorter stem my top tubes would be very long. So stem length is what it has to be to be give you the right position. If that does not feel right you need a different bike.

Bike fitting is not complicated but saddle height must be right and saddle fore and aft must be right. You set saddle position by pedaling on a turbo and having some look at where your bum is. Your bum should be at the back of the saddle, right at the back. Adjust your saddle so it is and make sure it is level. This will tell you if the set back required on the seat post as ideally the saddle should be mojnted in the middle of the rails, roughly. Then sort out the cleat so your legs go up and down in straight line and the axle centre is directly under the ball of the foot. Knee over pedal axle is not how to do this.

Then you adhjust saddle to handle bar drop and stem length you you have the right position on the hoods. You should be comfortable on the hoods and drops and then job done. Do it that order and you will get your position right do it another way and you might not.

ForumNewbie

thecycleclinic wrote:

Then sort out the cleat so your legs go up and down in straight line and the axle centre is directly under the ball of the foot. Knee over pedal axle is not how to do this.

Hi thecycleclinic, sorry if this is a silly question but can you explain what you mean exactly by legs going up and down in a straight line - do you mean keeping your feet horizontal through the pedal stroke rather than pointing up or down?

Elfed

Hi Sue, if you're new to this could it be simply down to lack of bike fitness?

I know when I'm having a bad day or towards the end of a ride my arse hurts due to weak legs, I'm prone to numbness through my left hand probably due to a weak core, when I'm feeling fit and good, no pain.

pilot_pete

ForumNewbie wrote:

thecycleclinic wrote:

Then sort out the cleat so your legs go up and down in straight line and the axle centre is directly under the ball of the foot. Knee over pedal axle is not how to do this.

Hi thecycleclinic, sorry if this is a silly question but can you explain what you mean exactly by legs going up and down in a straight line - do you mean keeping your feet horizontal through the pedal stroke rather than pointing up or down?

I think he means that your knees move in a vertical plane rather than flare out. This is the ideal, but not everyone can achieve it due to hip/ knee problems. I once helped fit a guy who had an old hip injury and I kid you not that he sat sideways and both knees 'pulled' left as he pedalled when viewed from behind! Unless someone like that has physio/ surgery to sort out their issue you can never get them into the ideal position. He was comfortable enough although it looked awful!

PP

dj58

Point to note, the OP says she has a Liv Thrive 1, which is a hybrid with a flat bar and barends, not drops, unless she has had the standard setup changed to drops/STI?

OP, as already suggested you need to get the saddle position corrected and then stem length/height, which you say you have already experimented with, so you may need to try a longer stem again.

Susec

Wow, lots of great information and things to try! Firstly I've moved the saddle 2/3 forward (from the back) and I regained power (a subjective measure based on feel and how fast I'm going on a known stretch of road). But I then needed to raise the saddle a tad to improve this. Just to confound things I added in spd pedals and needed to raise the saddle just a little more to get the benefit. All felt great whilst messing around town for an hour. However I went out for 7.2 miles today and ... numb left hand. I've had worse but it wasn't good. I think some of it is perhaps gripping too tightly especially as I'm uncomfortable with the wide bars. Only 1 hand went numb so I think the problem might be as much with me who's always ridden road bikes.
I have, however, got a much better bike fit and some reassurance that I'll get used to the stem. I chose the shorter frame due to back problems which get worse when I overreach such as on a unisex/man's bike. The smaller frame actually relieves my pain!! So many things to change, though. I change one and then need to change everything else, it feels!
Next year when the bike scheme comes around it'll definitely be a return to a road bike, though.
BTW I'm one of those folks with knackered knees whose feet don't go nicely up and down. My right leg can only just take SPDs with my heal clipping the chainstay, and that's *after* surgery. And I need loose-ish touring shoes on my left foot to allow a bit of play as my ankle rotates slightly eliptically due to extremely flat feet. My orthotics don't improve matters and this works without pain. You just have to make do and get inventive.
Thanks for all your info. With the current bike fit I've just got a 7th overall out of 388 women on a Strava segment. I'm doing something right given I've only just returned to cycling after 10 years and I've had the bike for 3.5 months. Now all I need is to keep the feeling in my hands to be able to change gear. Oh, and to brake...

bbrap

I notice you mention the width of the bars. Are you able to move the levers/gears inboard a bit, wrap a piece of bar tape where they were and see if that helps? Just thinking narrower bars might help and this way you can try it before splashing out on new bars or chopping the existing ones.

fat daddy

I am having hand issue at the moment, tried all the seat and stem combos known to man and mouse .... discovered that 3t ergonova bars help ALOT .. but ... the biggest difference to my hands I discovered this weekend is the angle of the shifters on the bars.

so not how far up or down the bar they are but there sideways angle to the centre line of the bike .... ie rotate them in or out.

I discovered that having more pronated hands (rather than supinated) helps a lot ... so lossen the shifters, hold them by the hood and rotate your palms towards the ground until they feel comfortable .... it didn't take much off of verticle to become amazingly more comfortable

bbrap

The OP has a bike with flat bars.

fat daddy

DOAH !

dj58

OP I would hazard a guess that your handle bars could be up to 680mm wide. Do as bbrap suggests and experiment moving the controls inboard, and then trim them down as required. I doubt you need bars wider than 540-560mm.

Susec

Thanks, I have which I've rolled the bar ends forward to a sort of hood position. However I'm very uncomfortable with having my hands and elbows stuck out so far - it feels awkward and ungainly. Perhaps I am gripping too tightly because of this. I'll move everything in as I suspect I'll be very much more comfortable. Now to find out how to move the grips. I guess this is in another forum so I'll go off searching.

bbrap

Most grips seem to be stuck on with a rubbery solution, twisting pulling and wiggling normally shifts them. While you are experimenting you can leave the grips where they are and cover the gap created by moving the controls with something else. A bit of bar tape, bit of pipe lagging, anything whilst you see if the inboard position suits. If it improves things then (and only then) remove the grips and chop the bars.

dj58

If your bike has these type of combined grip/bar end, then they are a lock-on type, normally secured by a small 2/3mm grub screw fitted to the inboard collar.

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-gb/ge ... 573/44883/

Unless you can separate the two component parts you won't be able to slide the grips inboard.

Susec

Thank you, thank you thank you! 18.5 miles and I can still change gear!! Almost no numbness. I moved the controls in 1cm each side. Markedly improved. I then moved them in another cm each side and so much more comfortable. And it seems no more added numbness after the second move. Riding on the bare bars is preferable to the wide grips. I will take them further in as my hand position is now butted up to the controls. I am *so* pleased. I thought I has a bike I couldn't ride. I still want to go back to a road bike, but I can ride this, now! Thank you, again! (Still didn't stop me falling off on gravel, but that's a different story :-) )

Susec

DJ58 wrote:

If your bike has these type of combined grip/bar end, then they are a lock-on type, normally secured by a small 2/3mm grub screw fitted to the inboard collar.

https://www.giant-bicycles.com/en-gb/ge ... 573/44883/

Unless you can separate the two component parts you won't be able to slide the grips inboard.

Looks like the picture. Here's hoping!