cycling weekly tests inadvertently shows how little aero frame is worth
parkergrey
Posts: 12
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/videos/c ... eels-video
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/videos/c ... bike-video
look at these 2 tests. Leaves me with the question, what advantage is the frame giving? seems like none to me..
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/videos/c ... bike-video
look at these 2 tests. Leaves me with the question, what advantage is the frame giving? seems like none to me..
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parkergrey wrote:http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/videos/cycling-tech/how-much-faster-aero-wheels-video
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/videos/c ... bike-video
look at these 2 tests. Leaves me with the question, what advantage is the frame giving? seems like none to me..
The major effect certainly seems to be from the wheels. So, looking to go faster on a road bike and spend the least, I would 'buy' speed in this order:
Skin suit
Helmet
Wheels
Frame0 -
Alex99 wrote:
The major effect certainly seems to be from the wheels. So, looking to go faster on a road bike and spend the least, I would 'buy' speed in this order:
Skin suit
Helmet
Wheels
Frame
I'd add aero bar to that list, which I think has a bigger impact than frame. So your list becomes;
-Position (full on TT position for max gains)
- Clothing (skin suit)
- Helmet
- Wheels
- Aero Bar
- Shoe covers
- Frame
These a useful article somewhere which shows timings by item0 -
Maybe explains why so few pros are riding the new venge..0
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Stueys wrote:Alex99 wrote:
The major effect certainly seems to be from the wheels. So, looking to go faster on a road bike and spend the least, I would 'buy' speed in this order:
Skin suit
Helmet
Wheels
Frame
I'd add aero bar to that list, which I think has a bigger impact than frame. So your list becomes;
-Position (full on TT position for max gains)
- Clothing (skin suit)
- Helmet
- Wheels
- Aero Bar
- Shoe covers
- Frame
These a useful article somewhere which shows timings by item
Sure, aero bar has a big effect and is high value. Was just thinking about standard road bike setup.0 -
parkergrey wrote:Maybe explains why so few pros are riding the new venge..
The sprinters riding for teams sponsored by Specialized probably will, other's wont
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Hold on a sec, just clicked through to that article...the conclusion is that yes, the aero frame does make a significant difference...probably less than whats been listed above (position, skinsuit and so on) but still a decent improvement no?0
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CookeeeMonster wrote:Hold on a sec, just clicked through to that article...the conclusion is that yes, the aero frame does make a significant difference...probably less than whats been listed above (position, skinsuit and so on) but still a decent improvement no?
It's inferred by the results from both articles that pretty much all of the improvement comes from the wheels. That's how I read it anyway. Not a totally waterproof analysis, but it seems reasonable. The many of the comments below the bike test are along the lines of 'should have kept the wheels the same'.0 -
Its pretty obvious that the gains from an aero frame are going to be tiny. Normal bike frames aren't exactly un-aero (if thats even a thing) especially with internal cabling etc. Everyone knows that most gains come from the position of the rider and what he is wearing.... everything else is small time. A guy I know just bought some of those flat top bars for about £100, he rides an endurance spec bike with 3cm of spacers.... I laughed.0
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Sounds about Right to me. One frame won't be drastically More aero than another.
Marketing eh ?0 -
ravey1981 wrote:Its pretty obvious that the gains from an aero frame are going to be tiny. Normal bike frames aren't exactly un-aero (if thats even a thing) especially with internal cabling etc. Everyone knows that most gains come from the position of the rider and what he is wearing.... everything else is small time. A guy I know just bought some of those flat top bars for about £100, he rides an endurance spec bike with 3cm of spacers.... I laughed.
It's like many of the people on the FB pages, all the questions about how much faster will these wheels make me, or I bought these wheels and I go 3mph faster, or what's best to buy to make me faster with £1k.
Then they show a photo of the bike, and 99 times out of 100 they have every single spacer under the stem, which is almost always pointing upwards too. A hacksaw and a tighter jersey would save them a fortune.0 -
Good to see that noone here is blinded by all the hype surrounding aero frames.
It really is the last element on the aero list, and even then you have to ask yourself, 'what am i giving up to go aero frame?', because the best handling/comfort/stiffness compromise is going to be the Tarmac/Supersix/Emonda/Addict style frame.
It's all about position, position, position (body that is!).
This vid hopefully demonstrates that!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1S4muZVeZs0 -
Aren't aero frames just a filtering down from Pro sport, where the incremental difference in racing might make all the difference. To your "normal" (whatever that is) rider, it will make no noticable differnce0
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I do have an 'aero' frame. I'm under no illusions that it is faster than a non-aero frame -but I like the look of it...0
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Hahaha, I've just seen Alex Simmons' (frequenter of this forum) comment on that aero frame article:The article was not laterally powerful nor aerodynamically compliant.
Genius.0 -
Positioning aside...why are TT frames so utterly, radically different?0
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Positioning is by far the biggest thing and a TT frame geometry is what allows you to achieve that position.
If you've ever tried clip-on aerobars on a road bike you'll know that the top-tube length is usually just too long to get a comfortable fit for a TT position; you end up having to slam the saddle all the way forward and get a shorter stem to even get close to a decent TT fit and even then it has a lot of compromises e.g. with body position relative to BB.
Aside from that, a TT bike has a lot of small differences that can add up to a significant aerodynamic benefit over a standard road bike setup; no handlebar drops dangling in the wind, hidden brake calipers, well-integrated cables, low profile seat-stays etc etc etc. If you look at some front-on picture of TT bikes it's quite striking how little of the bike is exposed to the wind.0 -
CookeeeMonster wrote:Positioning aside...why are TT frames so utterly, radically different?
How do you mean ? Surely the design of a TT frame is to make the bike and rider aero no more than that. Some of the gains in terms of the frameset itself may be small but that's bikes for you - it's no different really to buying a top end road frame to lose half a kg - you could ride in the Tour de France on a Planet X alloy race frame and probably not be significantly disadvantaged over the top end stuff they ride.
Actually significant is the wrong word as if it costs you an inch that means you get dropped or beaten in the sprint that is very significant but you know what I mean - if an aero frame gets you one second and that gets you a win or inside 20 minutes for a 10 then it's done its job.[Castle Donington Ladies FC - going up in '22]0 -
An aero frame gives a 17sec advantage.... http://cyclingtips.com/2010/04/biggest- ... equipment/0
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saladdays wrote:An aero frame gives a 17sec advantage.... http://cyclingtips.com/2010/04/biggest- ... equipment/
Which happens to be the lowest amount of time saved of any of the aero savings listed there, as well as the highest cost per second saved.0 -
saladdays wrote:An aero frame gives a 17sec advantage.... http://cyclingtips.com/2010/04/biggest- ... equipment/
In a wind tunnel.
Back in the real world, throw in gusts, turbulence, sidewinds, tailwinds, drafting effects, your position on the frame as opposed to that of the dummy, and it's anyone's guess what the savings are, (if any).0 -
BuckMulligan wrote:Positioning is by far the biggest thing and a TT frame geometry is what allows you to achieve that position.
If you've ever tried clip-on aerobars on a road bike you'll know that the top-tube length is usually just too long to get a comfortable fit for a TT position; you end up having to slam the saddle all the way forward and get a shorter stem to even get close to a decent TT fit and even then it has a lot of compromises e.g. with body position relative to BB.
Aside from that, a TT bike has a lot of small differences that can add up to a significant aerodynamic benefit over a standard road bike setup; no handlebar drops dangling in the wind, hidden brake calipers, well-integrated cables, low profile seat-stays etc etc etc. If you look at some front-on picture of TT bikes it's quite striking how little of the bike is exposed to the wind.
Cheers0 -
ravey1981 wrote:Its pretty obvious that the gains from an aero frame are going to be tiny. Normal bike frames aren't exactly un-aero (if thats even a thing) especially with internal cabling etc. Everyone knows that most gains come from the position of the rider and what he is wearing.... everything else is small time. A guy I know just bought some of those flat top bars for about £100, he rides an endurance spec bike with 3cm of spacers.... I laughed.
I agree that the position of the rider is the main factor, but the wheels do have a big impact in this test. Nearly 2 kph! It's a lot of training to go 2 kph faster.0 -
CookeeeMonster wrote:BuckMulligan wrote:Positioning is by far the biggest thing and a TT frame geometry is what allows you to achieve that position.
If you've ever tried clip-on aerobars on a road bike you'll know that the top-tube length is usually just too long to get a comfortable fit for a TT position; you end up having to slam the saddle all the way forward and get a shorter stem to even get close to a decent TT fit and even then it has a lot of compromises e.g. with body position relative to BB.
Aside from that, a TT bike has a lot of small differences that can add up to a significant aerodynamic benefit over a standard road bike setup; no handlebar drops dangling in the wind, hidden brake calipers, well-integrated cables, low profile seat-stays etc etc etc. If you look at some front-on picture of TT bikes it's quite striking how little of the bike is exposed to the wind.
Cheers
Think TT bikes have quite a big fork rake too (and maybe different head angle) to make riding on aero bars more stable, easier, and therefore faster in the real world.0 -
Aero frames are 100% a marketing gimmick.
Add in the often unreliable braking and they're probably slower on the open road day in day out0 -
LanterneRouge010 wrote:Aero frames are 100% a marketing gimmick.
Add in the often unreliable braking and they're probably slower on the open road day in day out
Ooooh, controversial!0 -
LanterneRouge010 wrote:Aero frames are 100% a marketing gimmick.
Add in the often unreliable braking and they're probably slower on the open road day in day out
Obviously you haven't got one. Or if you have it's not very aero..
Mine is consistently nearly 1mph faster (8 x rides now) over a regular 30 mile route than my other carbon bike. Wheels are the same between bikes.0 -
That could be down to you having a better position on your aero frame though, or any number of other factors.
Why do you think that the frame alone is the difference here?0 -
Bondurant wrote:That could be down to you having a better position on your aero frame though, or any number of other factors.
Why do you think that the frame alone is the difference here?
What other factors?
It is set up exactly the same as my other bike. Geometry is almost exactly the same.
FWIW I didn't believe the hype either so I bought an entry level aero bike to see for myself.
And I have ridden plenty of other different bikes to compare it to.0 -
1mph is massive. There's no way thats down to skinnier tubes. Are you perhaps just pushing yourself harder ?0
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I used to struggle to get a 20mph average on this route. I can do it fairly easily now.And no, my performance has not improved. been riding for 8 years seriously. Age is now against me.And I always push hard. The bike feels and is more responsive. That is where I feel the difference. I have also set PB's on climbs on itcougie wrote:1mph is massive. There's no way thats down to skinnier tubes. Are you perhaps just pushing yourself harder ?0
