How Important is an Aero Position?

ugo.santalucia · September 2016

fat daddy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I can't see the application in the real world...

how about its just plain fun going really really fast and the danger aspect gives you that level of adrenaline and endorphine rush that gives you withdrawal symptons until you get you next Rush Junkie hit.

... I am guessing at this by the way, I don't have the strength to hold my self in that position long enough ... or the kahoonas to thing my little wheels will hold up !

To be fair with you, I am a bit resentful when public money is spent to rescue someon who decided to climb a mountain in adverse weather conditions or to scramble the air ambulance because someone had an accident whilst sky diving...

Not all danger is born equal... some activities are plain stupid and others have a level of danger which is somewhat more sustainable...
Half of the famous sky divers died last month in various accidents, for instance

craigus89 · September 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I can't see the application in the real world...

how about its just plain fun going really really fast and the danger aspect gives you that level of adrenaline and endorphine rush that gives you withdrawal symptons until you get you next Rush Junkie hit.

... I am guessing at this by the way, I don't have the strength to hold my self in that position long enough ... or the kahoonas to thing my little wheels will hold up !

To be fair with you, I am a bit resentful when public money is spent to rescue someon who decided to climb a mountain in adverse weather conditions or to scramble the air ambulance because someone had an accident whilst sky diving...

Not all danger is born equal... some activities are plain stupid and others have a level of danger which is somewhat more sustainable...
Half of the famous sky divers died last month in various accidents, for instance

I agree with you to an extent, but where do you draw the line? Many people would say that riding a bicycle on the road at all, especially among rush hour traffic at anything over 15mph for instance, is very dangerous. When I reported to the police that I was knocked off of my bike by a van and told the nice older police lady that I was traveling approximately 20mph she replied "Oh, so quite fast then" implying I was being reckless.

svetty · September 2016

Certainly helps get up the hill at the bottom of a descent if you can carry some speed into it.......

fat daddy · September 2016

Craigus89 wrote:

but where do you draw the line? .

There is an old saying ... "anyone that drives slower than me is a dithering idiot that cant drive and doesn't know what they doing and anyone that drives faster than me is a wreckless fool that is going to kill themselves or someone else"

The line is dependant on the person drawing it, and in the majority of people that line is exactly where they are ... and anyone either side of it is in the wrong

the tolerance to the line though varies with age .... when you are in your teens, you don't mind if people go too far either side of this line, but the older you get the narrower the tolerance you get until you reach 67.3 years old, when suddenly turning the radio up past 2, is a bannable offence

webboo · September 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

fat daddy wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I can't see the application in the real world...

how about its just plain fun going really really fast and the danger aspect gives you that level of adrenaline and endorphine rush that gives you withdrawal symptons until you get you next Rush Junkie hit.

... I am guessing at this by the way, I don't have the strength to hold my self in that position long enough ... or the kahoonas to thing my little wheels will hold up !

To be fair with you, I am a bit resentful when public money is spent to rescue someon who decided to climb a mountain in adverse weather conditions or to scramble the air ambulance because someone had an accident whilst sky diving...

Not all danger is born equal... some activities are plain stupid and others have a level of danger which is somewhat more sustainable...
Half of the famous sky divers died last month in various accidents, for instance

So you crash on a wet road, is it ok to refuse you treatment as you were riding in poor conditions..
Are you Victor Meldrew.

fat daddy · September 2016

Webboo wrote:

So you crash on a wet road, is it ok to refuse you treatment .

only if he was in an aero position

sloppyschleckonds · September 2016

okgo wrote:

And utterly pointless for riding about. The sort of thing you see from total choppers trying to get their avg speed up so they're not too embarrassed to upload their ride.

You've just upset 75% of bike radar

sloppyschleckonds · September 2016

fat daddy wrote:

Webboo wrote:

So you crash on a wet road, is it ok to refuse you treatment .

only if he was in an aero position

https://youtu.be/byzvVc-FFSY

LanterneRouge010 · September 2016

If you're putting your head over your front wheel going downhill then you're kidding yourself.

Many pro teams have banned the aero tuck on the top tube (Orica) for their riders. That's whilst racing. You probably dont need free speed more than they do, if they've deemed extreme positions too dangerous.

bernithebiker · September 2016

fat daddy wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

but where do you draw the line? .

There is an old saying ... "anyone that drives slower than me is a dithering idiot that cant drive and doesn't know what they doing and anyone that drives faster than me is a wreckless fool that is going to kill themselves or someone else"

The line is dependant on the person drawing it, and in the majority of people that line is exactly where they are ... and anyone either side of it is in the wrong

the tolerance to the line though varies with age .... when you are in your teens, you don't mind if people go too far either side of this line, but the older you get the narrower the tolerance you get until you reach 67.3 years old, when suddenly turning the radio up past 2, is a bannable offence

This is very, very true!
And I am finding I don't listen to music in the car quite so loud anymore....should I be worried?!

ugo.santalucia · September 2016

Craigus89 wrote:

I agree with you to an extent, but where do you draw the line? Many people would say that riding a bicycle on the road at all, especially among rush hour traffic at anything over 15mph for instance, is very dangerous. When I reported to the police that I was knocked off of my bike by a van and told the nice older police lady that I was traveling approximately 20mph she replied "Oh, so quite fast then" implying I was being reckless.

Where do travel insurances draw the line? Typically cycling is fine, sky diving is not covered... it's quite simple, really. Within cycling, I suspect if you put in a claim for half a million and it turns out you were doing bike acrobatics sitting on the top tube with your chin on the stem, I am confident the insurance will refuse to pay... again, fairly simple

svetty · September 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

I agree with you to an extent, but where do you draw the line? Many people would say that riding a bicycle on the road at all, especially among rush hour traffic at anything over 15mph for instance, is very dangerous. When I reported to the police that I was knocked off of my bike by a van and told the nice older police lady that I was traveling approximately 20mph she replied "Oh, so quite fast then" implying I was being reckless.

Where do travel insurances draw the line? Typically cycling is fine, sky diving is not covered... it's quite simple, really. Within cycling, I suspect if you put in a claim for half a million and it turns out you were doing bike acrobatics sitting on the top tube with your chin on the stem, I am confident the insurance will refuse to pay... again, fairly simple

Surely this pre-supposes the degree to which this position increases the risk of an untoward situation. Unless there is clear ambiguous evidence that the risk is elevated such as to render the activity excessively reckless.....

ugo.santalucia · September 2016

Svetty wrote:

Surely this pre-supposes the degree to which this position increases the risk of an untoward situation. Unless there is clear ambiguous evidence that the risk is elevated such as to render the activity excessively reckless.....

I thought that was a given... I am confident any insurance would see it that way...

I don't mean to be nasty, but isn't that guy doing stunts on a road bike (can't rembember the name right now) on a wheelchair now?

svetty · September 2016

Edited above post to expand debate:

Svetty wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Craigus89 wrote:

I agree with you to an extent, but where do you draw the line? Many people would say that riding a bicycle on the road at all, especially among rush hour traffic at anything over 15mph for instance, is very dangerous. When I reported to the police that I was knocked off of my bike by a van and told the nice older police lady that I was traveling approximately 20mph she replied "Oh, so quite fast then" implying I was being reckless.

Where do travel insurances draw the line? Typically cycling is fine, sky diving is not covered... it's quite simple, really. Within cycling, I suspect if you put in a claim for half a million and it turns out you were doing bike acrobatics sitting on the top tube with your chin on the stem, I am confident the insurance will refuse to pay... again, fairly simple

Disagree - it isn't 'quite simple really'. The insurance argument pre-supposes the degree to which this position increases the risk of an untoward situation. Unless there is clear ambiguous evidence that the risk is elevated such as to render the activity patently reckless and not merely unconventional there should be no 'consensus of the worthy' to pass judgement on what is and isn't acceptable IMO. Once this position is deemed excessively dangerous the slippery slope principle could see the conventional - seat on the saddle, crouching in the hoods - tuck being similarly targeted. In fact all cycling above - say - 18mph might result in injury and should thus be prohibited for the cyclist's own good. Riding two abreast? Taking one hand from the bars? Not wearing a helmet? Not wearing head to toe Hi-Vis

There is enough anti-cyclist sentiment as it is without us demonizing fellow riders who ride in ways we choose not to

ugo.santalucia · September 2016

I heard on the news yesterday, that a Domino pizza delivery boy is being investigated by the company for doing a wheelie, which ended up in him capsizing in the middle of the road, somewhere in south London... the video is quite entertaining

You might argue that the legislation on how to ride a bike is a bit slack, but I am confident in the event of an accident you are unlikely to get compensation if there is evidence you were riding with your axxe on the top tube and your chin on the bars... happy to be proved wrong, of course

svetty · September 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

I heard on the news yesterday, that a Domino pizza delivery boy is being investigated by the company for doing a wheelie, which ended up in him capsizing in the middle of the road, somewhere in south London... the video is quite entertaining

You might argue that the legislation on how to ride a bike is a bit slack, but I am confident in the event of an accident you are unlikely to get compensation if there is evidence you were riding with your axxe on the top tube and your chin on the bars... happy to be proved wrong, of course

If the bike is travelling in a straight and true line along the road and a car knocks you off I would expect that the driver would be culpable whatever position you were in at the time. Once you deviate from this we're all in trouble.
This is why the contributory negligence line of thinking is an issue. E.g. if a cyclist isn't wearing a helmet and breaks his leg in an accident the fact that he/she was helmetless shouldn't matter but is often used to indicate recklessness and hence a degree of culpability.

bernithebiker · September 2016

I'm really not that sure what all the fuss is about. If the road is free of traffic, the surface is good and good visibility, it's really not that dangerous. Just today we rode with some locals in Majorca and at least 4 went past me downhill completely prone on the bars.

If anyone knows the last bit of the descent from Valdemossa towards Palma, (mostly straight, 10%) a good aero tuck will get you 80km/h, a poor one 60. That's quite a lot of free speed to leave on the table.

ForumNewbie · September 2016

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm really not that sure what all the fuss is about. If the road is free of traffic, the surface is good and good visibility, it's really not that dangerous. Just today we rode with some locals in Majorca and at least 4 went past me downhill completely prone on the bars.

If anyone knows the last bit of the descent from Valdemossa towards Palma, (mostly straight, 10%) a good aero tuck will get you 80km/h, a poor one 60. That's quite a lot of free speed to leave on the table.

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

fat daddy · September 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

If that KOM means that much to you, then yes its worth it .... hell people have died jumping lights in the pursuit of strava times, they thought it was worth the risk

bernithebiker · September 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm really not that sure what all the fuss is about. If the road is free of traffic, the surface is good and good visibility, it's really not that dangerous. Just today we rode with some locals in Majorca and at least 4 went past me downhill completely prone on the bars.

If anyone knows the last bit of the descent from Valdemossa towards Palma, (mostly straight, 10%) a good aero tuck will get you 80km/h, a poor one 60. That's quite a lot of free speed to leave on the table.

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

I don't give a crap about my average speed on Strava and I doubt anyone else does either. I just enjoy riding fast and the sensation of speed.

And I wouldn't call it 'sitting on the crossbar' either.

ForumNewbie · September 2016

bernithebiker wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

bernithebiker wrote:

I'm really not that sure what all the fuss is about. If the road is free of traffic, the surface is good and good visibility, it's really not that dangerous. Just today we rode with some locals in Majorca and at least 4 went past me downhill completely prone on the bars.

If anyone knows the last bit of the descent from Valdemossa towards Palma, (mostly straight, 10%) a good aero tuck will get you 80km/h, a poor one 60. That's quite a lot of free speed to leave on the table.

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

I don't give a crap about my average speed on Strava and I doubt anyone else does either. I just enjoy riding fast and the sensation of speed.

And I wouldn't call it 'sitting on the crossbar' either.

I'm sure some people take these risks to up their average speed or get up Segment leaderboards on Strava.

What would you call it?

svetty · September 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

All this talk of a 'dangerous position' and not a single fact or statistic to even attempt to define or prove the degree to which the position is dangerous. Dangerous compared to what and by how much?

Much hyperbole and little rationality here methinks

bernithebiker · September 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

I'm sure some people take these risks to up their average speed or get up Segment leaderboards on Strava.

It's a free world, (well some of it is, thank God).

ForumNewbie wrote:

What would you call it?

Chest on stem.

But there is also, hanging bum off back of saddle, so chest on saddle, and body to side of bike. Or the new 'Froome' position, which helped secure him the TdF.

ForumNewbie · September 2016

Svetty wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

All this talk of a 'dangerous position' and not a single fact or statistic to even attempt to define or prove the degree to which the position is dangerous. Dangerous compared to what and by how much?

Chest on stem and sitting on crossbar when descending fast is more dangerous compared to a normal riding position of sitting on the saddle.

svetty · September 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

Svetty wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

All this talk of a 'dangerous position' and not a single fact or statistic to even attempt to define or prove the degree to which the position is dangerous. Dangerous compared to what and by how much?

Chest on stem and sitting on crossbar when descending fast is more dangerous compared to a normal riding position of sitting on the saddle.

A simple statement of assertion without the evidence to support it. More dangerous than an aero tuck seated on the saddle? More dangerous than riding out of the saddle? More dangerous than taking a hand off the bars to get a bottle out of it's cage (and maybe looking down at the same time)? More dangerous than wet gravelly roads at night?

Cycling has lots of risks - if you don't feel safe in a given situation don't do it. Making unsubstantiated and sweeping statements about other folk's riding preferences doesn't help anyone.

bernithebiker · September 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

Svetty wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

All this talk of a 'dangerous position' and not a single fact or statistic to even attempt to define or prove the degree to which the position is dangerous. Dangerous compared to what and by how much?

Chest on stem and sitting on crossbar when descending fast is more dangerous compared to a normal riding position of sitting on the saddle.

Eating my dinner with a sharp fork is more dangerous than doing so with a blunt one, but I still do it.

Gotta live life on the edge right?

ForumNewbie · September 2016

Svetty wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

Svetty wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

All this talk of a 'dangerous position' and not a single fact or statistic to even attempt to define or prove the degree to which the position is dangerous. Dangerous compared to what and by how much?

Chest on stem and sitting on crossbar when descending fast is more dangerous compared to a normal riding position of sitting on the saddle.

A simple statement of assertion without the evidence to support it. More dangerous than an aero tuck seated on the saddle? More dangerous than riding out of the saddle? More dangerous than taking a hand off the bars to get a bottle out of it's cage (and maybe looking down at the same time)? More dangerous than wet gravelly roads at night?

Cycling has lots of risks - if you don't feel safe in a given situation don't do it. Making unsubstantiated and sweeping statements about other folk's riding preferences doesn't help anyone.

When Chris Froome did his descending on the crossbar in the TdF all the experts/pundits I heard advised that his position would be dangerous for amateur cyclists to try.

LanterneRouge010 · September 2016

ForumNewbie wrote:

Svetty wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

Svetty wrote:

ForumNewbie wrote:

It's fair enough getting a good aero position to go faster, but is it worth sitting on the crossbar in a dangerous position if you are not in a pro race? Is it worth the risk just so you have a better average speed showing on Strava?

All this talk of a 'dangerous position' and not a single fact or statistic to even attempt to define or prove the degree to which the position is dangerous. Dangerous compared to what and by how much?

Chest on stem and sitting on crossbar when descending fast is more dangerous compared to a normal riding position of sitting on the saddle.

A simple statement of assertion without the evidence to support it. More dangerous than an aero tuck seated on the saddle? More dangerous than riding out of the saddle? More dangerous than taking a hand off the bars to get a bottle out of it's cage (and maybe looking down at the same time)? More dangerous than wet gravelly roads at night?

Cycling has lots of risks - if you don't feel safe in a given situation don't do it. Making unsubstantiated and sweeping statements about other folk's riding preferences doesn't help anyone.

When Chris Froome did his descending on the crossbar in the TdF all the experts/pundits I heard advised that his position would be dangerous for amateur cyclists to try.

No way man, getting an extra second shaved off your strava segment is equally as important as the TDF paycheck

ugo.santalucia · September 2016

Round here it's all academic anyway... I can't think of a single UK descent where it makes sense to use that position... maybe Fleet Moss north face, but even there, you can reach 60 mph without doing that, not sure many have the balls to go any faster to be honest.

If you crash abroad there might be some extra costs with repatriation, which might be worth considering when choosing an aero tuck.

bernithebiker · September 2016

ugo.santalucia wrote:

Round here it's all academic anyway... I can't think of a single UK descent where it makes sense to use that position... maybe Fleet Moss north face, but even there, you can reach 60 mph without doing that, not sure many have the balls to go any faster to be honest.

If you crash abroad there might be some extra costs with repatriation, which might be worth considering when choosing an aero tuck.

Various experimentation has shown that I can go faster in a full-on aero tuck;

a) above 55km/h approx, if not really pressing on
b) above 65km/h approx, if going for it.

This is pedalling out on a 50-11.

Plenty of hills can give that speed, in my experience it only needs to be 4% or so.

Anyway, need to pop down the supermarket in a mo. I've risk assessed it, and I think I'm good to go. My insurance is up to date and fully topped up, I have my non-slip shoes on, some flares and a distress beacon. If I don't re-post in the next couple of hours or so, could someone please inform search and rescue? Ta.

How Important is an Aero Position?

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