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Vuelta stage 10 **spoilers**

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  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,279
    Isn't the usual frustration with Sky / Froome "controlling" the Tour via their top class domestiques not just the same as we're seeing with Movistar / Quintana / Valverde in Spain at the moment? In all seriousness, Valverde isn't riding for the Vuelta win is he, so he's not far off acting as a Poels / Thomas etc for Quintana.
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  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 24,380
    larkim wrote:
    Isn't the usual frustration with Sky / Froome "controlling" the Tour via their top class domestiques not just the same as we're seeing with Movistar / Quintana / Valverde in Spain at the moment? In all seriousness, Valverde isn't riding for the Vuelta win is he, so he's not far off acting as a Poels / Thomas etc for Quintana.

    It's completely different
  • larkimlarkim Posts: 2,279
    Thanks. How? All I've seen from the Vuelta this year is Movistar ganging up at the front, riding at a high tempo and making it difficult for other teams to power past, particularly on ascents. That sounds remarkably like Sky to me. Or at least, sufficiently similar to draw parallels (I know the team structure within Movistar is different to Sky's).
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  • yorkshirerawyorkshireraw Posts: 1,055

    Maybe riders should be classified in bands according to their track record... say band A are recent big race winners or GT podium finishers and band B are small race winners/big race top 10 finishers... and a team cannot have more than say 2 riders of band A and 3 of band B in a given race... Poels/Froome/Landa and Thomas would all be band A, Nieve, Kyrienka, Henao and Stannard band B

    Except Sky are probably the only team under those conditions who would be willing and able to ask riders of the like of Poels / Landa etc not to win all year, in order to take the big one with a super-strong team, regardless of their 'rating'.

    Sure, some riders would want to win for their own ambitions but it would again come down to a team paying a big enough cheque to compensate for curtailing those ambitions.

    Too many rules makes things more confusing to the casual spectator as well, like F1 with it's DRS zones etc.

    Knocking the teams down to 8 or 7 riders and having no stages over say, 190km, would have a bigger impact on shaking it up. Not saying they should do that but it's a simpler and 'purer' option.
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 24,380
    larkim wrote:
    Thanks. How? All I've seen from the Vuelta this year is Movistar ganging up at the front, riding at a high tempo and making it difficult for other teams to power past, particularly on ascents. That sounds remarkably like Sky to me. Or at least, sufficiently similar to draw parallels (I know the team structure within Movistar is different to Sky's).

    Sky ride up the climb to the last Km, Movistar has half the men and ride up the first 2-3 Km of a climb... that's the difference
  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 24,380
    Except Sky are probably the only team under those conditions who would be willing and able to ask riders of the like of Poels / Landa etc not to win all year, in order to take the big one with a super-strong team, regardless of their 'rating'.
    .

    I don't think any rider would agree to a contract specifying he can't win races... it's short term gain... plus if you race on a bicycle you want to win races... otherwise you are a useless bicycle racer
  • yorkshirerawyorkshireraw Posts: 1,055
    Except Sky are probably the only team under those conditions who would be willing and able to ask riders of the like of Poels / Landa etc not to win all year, in order to take the big one with a super-strong team, regardless of their 'rating'.
    .

    I don't think any rider would agree to a contract specifying he can't win races... it's short term gain... plus if you race on a bicycle you want to win races... otherwise you are a useless bicycle racer

    So how do Sky persuade Nieve, Henao, Poels etc. - all top 10 capable riders for GTs - to ride in the service of someone else then - they're working at the end of the day, and $$$ talks.

    Your point is valid, of course, that most riders would love to be winning races, but the idea you've suggested would skew the situation even more towards the moneyed teams, because the riders would be greater incentivised to focus all on being part of a tour winning team, not on riding well year-round. These guys still need to pay the bills.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,977
    Except Sky are probably the only team under those conditions who would be willing and able to ask riders of the like of Poels / Landa etc not to win all year, in order to take the big one with a super-strong team, regardless of their 'rating'.
    .

    I don't think any rider would agree to a contract specifying he can't win races... it's short term gain... plus if you race on a bicycle you want to win races... otherwise you are a useless bicycle racer
    It depends what you consider winning. I'm certain that the eight riders that accompany the Yellow Jersey into Paris think they've won.

    "When I joined this team, I had one dream: to reach Paris with Chris in yellow. And being part of it is a very good feeling and a huge prize." - Mikel Nieve, Paris 2016
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  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,977
    larkim wrote:
    Thanks. How? All I've seen from the Vuelta this year is Movistar ganging up at the front, riding at a high tempo and making it difficult for other teams to power past, particularly on ascents. That sounds remarkably like Sky to me. Or at least, sufficiently similar to draw parallels (I know the team structure within Movistar is different to Sky's).

    Sky ride up the climb to the last Km, Movistar has half the men and ride up the first 2-3 Km of a climb... that's the difference
    It depends whether the leader needs to gain time, or protect gains. Both Sky and Movistar can attack and defend. Right now, with a 40km time trial at the end of the race, Movistar need to attack. Give Quintana another two or three minutes and they ride differently.
    Twitter: @RichN95
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 5,674
    joelsim wrote:
    [
    Not sure that has anything to do with being a Classics Rider. It's a one day race so you either take a risk or don't win.


    Some riders are more proactive than others - Sagan and Boonen are both riders who could wait for a sprint with some prospect of success but who more than most at least have shown a willingness to shake the race up.
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  • joelsim wrote:
    [
    Not sure that has anything to do with being a Classics Rider. It's a one day race so you either take a risk or don't win.


    Some riders are more proactive than others - Sagan and Boonen are both riders who could wait for a sprint with some prospect of success but who more than most at least have shown a willingness to shake the race up.

    Proactive?
    That sounds an awful lot like say a rider launching on a downhill, or jumping across an echelon gap to go on a surprise attack, to me.
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  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 24,380
    RichN95 wrote:

    "When I joined this team, I had one dream: to reach Paris with Chris in yellow. And being part of it is a very good feeling and a huge prize." - Mikel Nieve, Paris 2016

    Sounds like a lot of bollox from Nieve... as much as a team effort, ultimately it's one man with a yellow jersey on the podium... I can't recall even a single one of Nibali's domestiques in 2014... nobody remembers domestiques... there is no glory in being one... maybe a bit of money and some good memories. I am sure Poels would not give swap his LBL trophy for another three years as a domestique of a yellow jersey
  • lostboysaintlostboysaint Posts: 4,369
    Someone needs to tell Ugo that Frenchy has hacked his log-in.
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  • ugo.santaluciaugo.santalucia Posts: 24,380
    Someone needs to tell Ugo that Frenchy has hacked his log-in.


    ... now... Contador... what an amazing Vuelta is he having, all considered... :lol::mrgreen:
  • hypsterhypster Posts: 1,188
    larkim wrote:
    Thanks. How? All I've seen from the Vuelta this year is Movistar ganging up at the front, riding at a high tempo and making it difficult for other teams to power past, particularly on ascents. That sounds remarkably like Sky to me. Or at least, sufficiently similar to draw parallels (I know the team structure within Movistar is different to Sky's).

    Sky ride up the climb to the last Km, Movistar has half the men and ride up the first 2-3 Km of a climb... that's the difference

    I think you're seeing what you want to see Ugo and not everyone else's experience at all.
  • DeVlaeminckDeVlaeminck Posts: 5,674
    joelsim wrote:
    [
    Not sure that has anything to do with being a Classics Rider. It's a one day race so you either take a risk or don't win.


    Some riders are more proactive than others - Sagan and Boonen are both riders who could wait for a sprint with some prospect of success but who more than most at least have shown a willingness to shake the race up.

    Proactive?
    That sounds an awful lot like say a rider launching on a downhill, or jumping across an echelon gap to go on a surprise attack, to me.


    Yes it does ...?
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  • AnonymousAnonymous Posts: 28,799
    Like Froome?
  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 4,744
    Re. Froome I don't think he's any more or less exciting than the majority of GC contenders. He probably edges Quintana in that regard but Quintana is so conservative that it probably costs him results at times. What can be tedious is Froome's dominance rather than his riding style - fans tend to want a contest and there are many examples of sportsmen who only became loved when they became vulnerable. Not sure what Froome can do about that though other than lose a few races.

    Back to riding style though - the only stand out GC contender that springs to mind in terms of excitement has been Contador - if we don't see the best of him again then that is a loss to the sport. Other riders with his approach have tended to be classics riders - Sagan now and maybe Tom Boonen are two that have never been afraid to risk losing a race to try and win it.

    No love for Nibali? He's an exciting GC rider who likes to roll the dice... won more GTs than Froome and Quintana too...
  • We are all guilty of seeing what we want to see, lets face it

    As for Sky's super domestiques and their motives...I reckon they fall into more than one category - with one thing in common: they're all paid handsomely:

    1. The guys who, sure, COULD leave other teams at a GT but realistically they know that they aren't quite good enough to win one. Is happy where he is. Not overly-ambitious. Exhibit A: Mikel Nieve

    2. The guys who came to Sky to continue their development as a GT guy. And will leave at the end of their initial contract for lack of opportunities because Froome sits there as a massive barrier anyone else leading any GT other than the Giro. Exhibit: Konig, and I suspect Landa and Kwiato in the future. Possibly Poels too. Thomas will leave for another team when hell freezes over

    3. The guys who find themselves locked out of a Tour ride and leave (and would have had to have ridden for Froome at the Vuelta if they hadn't got struck down with the plague in Rio. They still have some ambition re their own opportunities. Exhibit C: Roche
  • RonBRonB Posts: 3,984
    Def more than one category.

    Prev holders of the Cat2: Rigo Uran & Richie Porte?
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,977
    One other thing to add to the motives of Sky domestiques is that Froome typically only does five or six races which leaves a lot of other races. So unless those riders have a burning desire to lead a team at the Tour de France, there's plenty of opportunity to lead the team and do so with good support. The eight that rode with Froome have all had individual success this season as well (apart from Kiryienka who is a reigning World Champion)
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  • dish_dashdish_dash Posts: 4,744
    Thomas will leave for another team when hell freezes over

    I heard a rumour that winter was coming...

    800_0553.jpg
  • dish_dash wrote:
    Thomas will leave for another team when hell freezes over

    I heard a rumour that winter was coming...

    800_0553.jpg




    :shock: :shock: :shock:
  • RonB wrote:
    Def more than one category.

    Prev holders of the Cat2: Rigo Uran & Richie Porte?


    Yeppa. Uran was also not enamoured of Monsieur Froome
  • On another topic, I see that Teeny Tana and Piti are in the market for power meters to be banned from use in races

    Like that would make the slightest difference to the way in which Sky ride
  • On another topic, I see that Teeny Tana and Piti are in the market for power meters to be banned from use in races

    Drugs, not so much.....
    "Science is a tool for cheaters". An anonymous French PE teacher.
  • On another topic, I see that Teeny Tana and Piti are in the market for power meters to be banned from use in races

    Drugs, not so much.....


    Power meters are Satan's work. Unlike a blood transfusion. Or ten.
  • joelsimjoelsim Posts: 7,552
    RonB wrote:
    Def more than one category.

    Prev holders of the Cat2: Rigo Uran & Richie Porte?


    Yeppa. Uran was also not enamoured of Monsieur Froome

    He's not done much since he left.
  • joelsim wrote:
    RonB wrote:
    Def more than one category.

    Prev holders of the Cat2: Rigo Uran & Richie Porte?


    Yeppa. Uran was also not enamoured of Monsieur Froome

    He's not done much since he left.


    Like a 2nd runner-up spot in the Giro? Aye.
  • RichN95.RichN95. Posts: 22,977
    RonB wrote:
    Def more than one category.

    Prev holders of the Cat2: Rigo Uran & Richie Porte?


    Yeppa. Uran was also not enamoured of Monsieur Froome
    Did they even ride much together? Of course, maybe that was the issue.
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