I'm not ready for a power meter yet, but......

pbassred

I have no interest in racing. Weight loss probably, overall fitness and the ability to ride distance (before it gets too dark to see!). Its also not my main hobby. That said, Gear Acquisition Syndrome will get me one day...

I'm the happy owner of a 10year old car, a 2 year old phone and while technology at the top end marches on by increments, a 10 year old bike would still be ride-able, if not competitive. So I don't feel the need to splash the cash for the bleeding edge of science.

I can't help thinking that, currently Power meters are just becoming mainstream over the last few years. They are not quite developed yet. Their technology is still leaping.

So:-How long before the technology becomes stable enough for the prices to drop or used units to become a viable option?

sloppyschleckonds

pbassred wrote:

I can't help thinking that, currently Power meters are just becoming mainstream over the last few years. They are not quite developed yet. Their technology is still leaping.

Whut

redvision

The current crop of power meters are reliable and accurate.

You can get a power meter for £300. In all honesty, even as more appear on the market, I don't think this figure will fall much lower (you only have to look at gps computers to see prices only drop so far).

If you are not interested in racing then I don't really get why you are talking about a pm. If weight loss and fitness improvement is all you are after then there are far better investments you should be looking at rather than a pm.

RChung

pbassred wrote:

So:-How long before the technology becomes stable enough for the prices to drop or used units to become a viable option?

Hmmm. Maybe 2013. Possibly earlier than that.

glenncz

I'm not ready either. I have 1300 miles in since June 1st. I log my miles, mph and ascent ft/mile. How many numbers do I need. I can only pedal so fast and a computer can't help me pedal faster as long I'm in the ride gear w/ the right cadence. The breath is what I use to tell me how hard to go or let up. The only thing I think it could be good for was if you really wanted to compare your power numbers to other riders, but since ascent/mi makes such a difference in riding, it's hard to compare rides that are not equal. And even ascent/mi is not a great gauge, because there is a huge difference in what different grades and lengths of hills does to you.

bernithebiker

To the cool dudes saying the market was mature in 2013, should it not be noted, that only now, for 2017, has SHimano finally released a PM as part of it's groupset?

Surely that should be considered a pivotal moment where the technology went mainstream, and will help pressure prices downwards, for it is after all, just a strain gauge with ANT+?

StillGoing

glenncz wrote:

I'm not ready either. I have 1300 miles in since June 1st. I log my miles, mph and ascent ft/mile. How many numbers do I need. I can only pedal so fast and a computer can't help me pedal faster as long I'm in the ride gear w/ the right cadence. The breath is what I use to tell me how hard to go or let up. The only thing I think it could be good for was if you really wanted to compare your power numbers to other riders, but since ascent/mi makes such a difference in riding, it's hard to compare rides that are not equal. And even ascent/mi is not a great gauge, because there is a huge difference in what different grades and lengths of hills does to you.

You need to read about power meters because you are so wrong. Power is constant no matter what the terrain. If your FTP is 150watts, it's 150 watts whether the road goes up or goes down. Knowing your FTP by doing regular CP20 tests (or their equivalent) helps you ride at the correct tempo. Conversely your example of knowing how you're doing by your breathing is flawed. If you're under the weather, your heart rate will be affected and will therefore have a knock on on your breathing. Same with some foods and drink, altitude, temperature etc. In all these scenarios power remains constant and unaffected allowing the rider to know exactly what they can or can't do.

A power meter has more use than just for those who are intent on racing. I don't race and have no intention of racing at my stage in life. But, with a completely blocked artery, my heart rate rockets with the first turn of the pedals. If I rode by heart rate or my breathing, i'd be almost stationary. However, with a power meter, I know what my FTP is and can ride to tempo as a result. This method of monitoring my performance allows me to ride to a decent pace rather than believing I'm going hard because of a high HR which would no doubt show I was in some sufferfest on things like Strava. Even my Vascular Consultant Surgeon recommended training with a power meter rather than using HR.

glenncz

Let me add HR monitor to what is totally unnecessary. I don't fault anyone for using that stuff, maybe it's because I'm getting to be an old timer (57). How much "crap" do we need. The kernel of biking is getting on the bike and achieving fitness. You do that by getting on the bike and putting the miles in, in different conditions. Add to that the enjoyment of touring and exploring. By riding more we get faster. Yes, you have to have the right gear shifting and cadence and add proper bike fit to that. But how much benefit is there "really" by turning it into a nuclear experiment.

From my readings, performance is based on how much O2 we can get into the blood cells. That's why EPO is/was so big. I can measure O2 by my breathing rate and depth. I alter that based on the terrain ahead. There is so much more to riding that number screens or fooling with computer graphs at home. I'd rather read a fiction novel, because for most of us it does the same amt of good.

I know there are some elites that might benefit from this stuff. But I doubt that most of us even experienced and committed riders do . And what gets my goat is there are new people that think they need all this "stuff" or that it will make them faster. I read two books on power meters, I guess if a PM was $50 I would get one. But then again, I've had a few HRM's over the years and they are $50 and I don't need that either.

Again, I'm speaking to the newer rider, who needs to keep it simple.

redvision

bernithebiker wrote:

To the cool dudes saying the market was mature in 2013, should it not be noted, that only now, for 2017, has SHimano finally released a PM as part of it's groupset?

Surely that should be considered a pivotal moment where the technology went mainstream, and will help pressure prices downwards, for it is after all, just a strain gauge with ANT+?

I don't think shimano releasing a pm is the defining moment when the tech went mainstream. They are just another player in the market.

As for prices being driven down, until shimano release a pm for its lower groupsets rather than just dura Ace I can't see any impact to the prices. As I said in earlier post, you can pick up a pm for £300 and I don't think this will reduce anytime soon.

StillGoing

Add to your theory of going faster and getting fitter; The average new rider won't appreciate that to go further and faster, you need to slow down. If you set off like the proverbial rabbit, you will tire, slow down and finish feeling knackered with nothing to show for the effort. Managing your pace correctly will see you finish strongly with an improved time. Knowing your power output, allows you to know your zones and with 3s readings, ride at the desired pace. Without aids it is all simply guess work. As a result they may hit lucky and succeed in their goal, but more likely than not, they won't. PRE is fine for those who simply don't want to splash out on useful and highly accurate aids, but it can't offer the same results.

I fully appreciate that they aren't for you, but that doesn't mean they should only be for experienced or professional cyclists. I'm not suggesting everyone should add a power meter to their options when buying their first bike, but for those that want to train or improve properly, a power meter is a useful aid. I didn't start using one until I hit 53 a few years ago and wouldn't look back now.

RChung

bernithebiker wrote:

To the cool dudes saying the market was mature in 2013, should it not be noted, that only now, for 2017, has SHimano finally released a PM as part of it's groupset?

Surely that should be considered a pivotal moment where the technology went mainstream, and will help pressure prices downwards, for it is after all, just a strain gauge with ANT+?

Hmmm. Shimano makes parts, but not entire bikes. Surely when Shimano starts making bikes cycling will finally become mainstream. That will be a glorious day.

One has been able to buy reliable high-quality full-featured power meters at reasonable prices on the used market for several years. The OP did ask about the used market, and I'd say that's a better indicator of whether a market is mature than whether one manufacturer decides it's time to enter the market. Wired SRMs are quite desirable, and the last wired generation of Power Taps were both accurate and robust. The only thing is that they were wired. ANT+ is a communication protocol but the functionality of a power meter has been pretty mature for a while -- in fact, the reason why wired SRMs are so sought after is because their old wired units never had packet loss and could transmit at higher frequency, which can be useful for certain applications.

That all said, last month Power Tap was selling new ANT+/BT GS hubs for $299 US in limited quantities.

AK_jnr

What cracks me up is seeing data from 90% of riders that I follow with a PM that spend a third of their rides free wheeling!! They go home thinking they can pig out as they rode for 3 hours when in reality it was a hell of a lot less.
A PM completely changed my training on the bike. Its the best thing I did. I can still ride perfectly fine to RPE but its always nice to have the data and see PB's over different durations.

kayakerchris

Do you need a power meter to get better and faster. No, eddie Mercx didn't have one!
BUT

Does a power meter allow you to work at a known intensity when out on the bike. Yes
Does a power meter even out variations in terrain and wind when I am assessing my workout and training. Yes
Does a power meter allow you to see when your HR is drifting in the wrong direction compared to power and prevent overtraining or training when ill. Yes
Can I do repeatable intervals whatever the weather. Yes

My aim is to do what i love (longish distance, 200-600km) as well as possible with some TT races as well. Is the power meter worth it. Oh Yes!!

simon_masterson

A similar logic could be used to argue that you 'aren't ready' to use any data - speed, for example. It's all numbers. Power measurement can be useful to any cyclist.

StillGoing

AK_jnr wrote:

What cracks me up is seeing data from 90% of riders that I follow with a PM that spend a third of their rides free wheeling!! They go home thinking they can pig out as they rode for 3 hours when in reality it was a hell of a lot less.

That's a bit of an assumption. Having a power meter doesn't mean you have to be on it all ride long. How do you know what their intentions were for the ride? If all you're interested in is average watts for a ride, it will be less than it could have been for the overall distance if they've been freewheeling more than you would.

DavidJB

So many lol moments in this thread.

If you're not interested in in-depth training and training with power as a tool to structure sessions don't waste your money.

MikeBrew

glenncz wrote:

Let me add HR monitor to what is totally unnecessary. I don't fault anyone for using that stuff, maybe it's because I'm getting to be an old timer (57). How much "crap" do we need. The kernel of biking is getting on the bike and achieving fitness. You do that by getting on the bike and putting the miles in, in different conditions.
Again, I'm speaking to the newer rider, who needs to keep it simple.

.

There seems to be a total lack of understanding on your part about the inherent relationship between what you heart is doing whilst exercising and what cardiovascular fitness actually is...Also, encouraging new riders to not to keep an eye on how hard they're taxing their hearts is pretty daft, to say the least. It's a pretty vital organ, some would even say one would hard pushed to live without it. How then can a encouraging anyone, especially new riders to blindly tax it be even vaguely sensible ?

slowbike

glenncz wrote:

Let me add HR monitor to what is totally unnecessary. I don't fault anyone for using that stuff, maybe it's because I'm getting to be an old timer (57). How much "crap" do we need. The kernel of biking is getting on the bike and achieving fitness. You do that by getting on the bike and putting the miles in, in different conditions. Add to that the enjoyment of touring and exploring. By riding more we get faster. Yes, you have to have the right gear shifting and cadence and add proper bike fit to that. But how much benefit is there "really" by turning it into a nuclear experiment. <snip>
Again, I'm speaking to the newer rider, who needs to keep it simple.

Whilst you're absolutely right - there's no need for any gauge on the bike - speed, cadence, HR, power, temperature, distance - Nothing is needed for getting fitter - however, you miss the psychological element - what encourages a rider to get out there and do more miles?
Ok - I know riders who go out and do >100miles with next to no gadgettery - certainly no strava - and they do their riding on feel - they're enjoying it. However, that isn't for everyone - there are others I know who are doing very specific training to improve their riding - they record every last pedal turn, heart beat and watt given - their motivation is very different to the long distance riders - they're motivated by their progress recorded.
Then there are those of us inbetween (I include myself in this group) - many of us record the majority of our riding, we record metrics depending on the sort of riding we're doing - we like to see how we're doing compared to previously but not too hung up on it - but it's nice to see where we're doing better than previously.

So what you need on your bike depends hugely on your motivation to ride it - powermeter on the pub bike is probably a bit OTT - but if you're trying to improve your riding then a PM on your commute bike may be what you need to give you measurable results.

AK_jnr

philthy3 wrote:

AK_jnr wrote:

What cracks me up is seeing data from 90% of riders that I follow with a PM that spend a third of their rides free wheeling!! They go home thinking they can pig out as they rode for 3 hours when in reality it was a hell of a lot less.

That's a bit of an assumption. Having a power meter doesn't mean you have to be on it all ride long. How do you know what their intentions were for the ride? If all you're interested in is average watts for a ride, it will be less than it could have been for the overall distance if they've been freewheeling more than you would.

Of course. But check out any pro rider that shows their data and they barely freewheel. Soft tap between intervals maybe. Freewheeling is for races.

DavidJB

AK_jnr wrote:

philthy3 wrote:

AK_jnr wrote:

What cracks me up is seeing data from 90% of riders that I follow with a PM that spend a third of their rides free wheeling!! They go home thinking they can pig out as they rode for 3 hours when in reality it was a hell of a lot less.

That's a bit of an assumption. Having a power meter doesn't mean you have to be on it all ride long. How do you know what their intentions were for the ride? If all you're interested in is average watts for a ride, it will be less than it could have been for the overall distance if they've been freewheeling more than you would.

Of course. But check out any pro rider that shows their data and they barely freewheel. Soft tap between intervals maybe. Freewheeling is for races.

Confirmed...no good rider freewheels unless the road conditions demand it.

ajmitchell

pbassred wrote:

How long before the technology becomes stable enough for the prices to drop or used units to become a viable option?

Just on this note we are a long way from the £2000 SRM power meters introduced in 1986. One of the cheapest reliable pedal meters (albiet single sided) is BePro for around £350 (ill ignore LIMITS for now). Second hand they are even cheaper, I got a powertap wheel in 2010 for £300 second hand, and I picked up a like new G3 powertap wheel just this year for £200 second hand and all worked pretty flawlessly. Stages crank arm is usually around £300 s/h. If you are in the US, prices are even lower

twist83

I have to say this is the nail on the head. Excellent post about Power Meters and the use of them.

A lot of misconceptions about them. Fair enough if you don't want one but to say they are just for racing is nonsense.

I found it a god send in the Alps this year for the extended climbs. I also base most my rides around it. If I am feeling tired I can knock it back to something comfortable. It is also a great tool to chart and see progression.

Plus I love Tech and stats!!!

HR will have fluctuations, as will breathing. Also cadence should be self selected. There isn't a 'right' cadence. We are all different. There are optimal ranges.

philthy3 wrote:

glenncz wrote:

I'm not ready either. I have 1300 miles in since June 1st. I log my miles, mph and ascent ft/mile. How many numbers do I need. I can only pedal so fast and a computer can't help me pedal faster as long I'm in the ride gear w/ the right cadence. The breath is what I use to tell me how hard to go or let up. The only thing I think it could be good for was if you really wanted to compare your power numbers to other riders, but since ascent/mi makes such a difference in riding, it's hard to compare rides that are not equal. And even ascent/mi is not a great gauge, because there is a huge difference in what different grades and lengths of hills does to you.

You need to read about power meters because you are so wrong. Power is constant no matter what the terrain. If your FTP is 150watts, it's 150 watts whether the road goes up or goes down. Knowing your FTP by doing regular CP20 tests (or their equivalent) helps you ride at the correct tempo. Conversely your example of knowing how you're doing by your breathing is flawed. If you're under the weather, your heart rate will be affected and will therefore have a knock on on your breathing. Same with some foods and drink, altitude, temperature etc. In all these scenarios power remains constant and unaffected allowing the rider to know exactly what they can or can't do.

A power meter has more use than just for those who are intent on racing. I don't race and have no intention of racing at my stage in life. But, with a completely blocked artery, my heart rate rockets with the first turn of the pedals. If I rode by heart rate or my breathing, i'd be almost stationary. However, with a power meter, I know what my FTP is and can ride to tempo as a result. This method of monitoring my performance allows me to ride to a decent pace rather than believing I'm going hard because of a high HR which would no doubt show I was in some sufferfest on things like Strava. Even my Vascular Consultant Surgeon recommended training with a power meter rather than using HR.

twist83

Why does the new rider need to keep it simple? This is simply tech advancing. Fair enough if you don't want a HR, PM, Garmin, Strava or whatever that is fine. But some people find them a motivator or enjoy using them. The same as you enjoy reading a fiction book others might like to pour over stats.

It isn't crap as you put it. Just another means of training.

The other thing this 'crap' can do is assist with people who are time pressed like myself. Where I want to make the most out of my rides for whatever reason. I find seeing the numbers/miles/feet stack up on Strava a huge motivator. No harm in that.

glenncz wrote:

Let me add HR monitor to what is totally unnecessary. I don't fault anyone for using that stuff, maybe it's because I'm getting to be an old timer (57). How much "crap" do we need. The kernel of biking is getting on the bike and achieving fitness. You do that by getting on the bike and putting the miles in, in different conditions. Add to that the enjoyment of touring and exploring. By riding more we get faster. Yes, you have to have the right gear shifting and cadence and add proper bike fit to that. But how much benefit is there "really" by turning it into a nuclear experiment.

From my readings, performance is based on how much O2 we can get into the blood cells. That's why EPO is/was so big. I can measure O2 by my breathing rate and depth. I alter that based on the terrain ahead. There is so much more to riding that number screens or fooling with computer graphs at home. I'd rather read a fiction novel, because for most of us it does the same amt of good.

I know there are some elites that might benefit from this stuff. But I doubt that most of us even experienced and committed riders do . And what gets my goat is there are new people that think they need all this "stuff" or that it will make them faster. I read two books on power meters, I guess if a PM was $50 I would get one. But then again, I've had a few HRM's over the years and they are $50 and I don't need that either.

Again, I'm speaking to the newer rider, who needs to keep it simple.

huskie69

I signed up to a Kickstarter project a few weeks ago - ZWATT powermeter

http://sensitivus.com/zwatt

Well worth a look if you don't want to throw down mega bucks on a power meter. I never really felt the need to spend >£1k on figuring out how hard I'm pushing myself but £150ish (plus a small monthly usage fee) appeals to me quite a lot. I'll know for sure then whether or not I'm improving without breaking the bank.

twist83

You haven't needed to spend 1K+ for a long time. 4iiii, Stages, Powertap to name a few.

pbassred

Wow! There sure are a lot of excitable people here. My post was not about WHETHER a power meter is a good idea or who it is good for, but the advance of the technology.

8- 9 years ago I owned a phone that could just about get the internet. I thought it was a gimmic and never used it. It was only after my next phone broke and I went back to it that I realized how truly rubbish it was. Now I own an S5 (which is a mature product) and organize my life with Facebook! Other people were screaming for big screens and 4G 5 years ago. Technology is like that. Different strokes for different folks. You can spend your disposable income on what you like.

This time last year I bought a mountain /hybrid with mudguards and a rack. The guys at the factory laughed. I use it for my short commute, trails, exploring, and dragging stuff around the city (let's face it. Not a time trial). Earlier this year I bought a 2nd hand cycle-cross bike for £350. I put Marathon pluses on it but its still not a speed machine.

For the guy at work who just paid out £2500 for his new carbon bike I completely understand why £500 - 600 (for ONE leg!) is appropriate. Its his main hobby and he is looking for seconds. As I write this I am completely shagged out, having paraded with a samba drum band for 3 miles last night. That is MY focus. £2500 would get me to Rio! Would I spend the equivalent of my bike cost on tech when the first 80% of my fitness is still to be achieved? When it might be capable of only doing a fraction of the things that the next generation will do for less money?

So the question was really about; when will the bang-for-buck ratio be more favorable.

Bill B

How are recreational and competitive long distance runners able to make the most out of their workouts and continue to train and improve without the true equivalent of power meters?
Yet some recreational and amateur cyclists swear they can't live without them?
I understand the compulsive need for some people to crunch numbers part. Just don't get the inability to improve without it part

ADaleLover

If you enjoy currently advancing technology, suggest you look at wireless groupsets. I ride with someone who has eTap and he loves it, so much so he sold two decent bikes to get a second eTap bike...

For powermeters, as the happy owner of two, there's no point unless you let them change the reason you ride. Use Garmin Connect (free) or Golden Cheetah (also free) and calculate things like TSS, which as someone noted is ride and terrain independant. They keep you honest for the work you are doing.

If though your focus is as you say "I have no interest in racing. Weight loss probably, overall fitness and the ability to ride distance ", then get some _heavier_ wheels for non-distance rides so you work harder on regular rides. Switch to the lighter wheels for bigger rides.

To answer the last post, some questions you cannot answer without a power meter might be whether you are going faster recently because you're riding flatter courses, or the new tyres have lower rolling resistance, or that new bike fit is good. If you are recreational rider, consider spend your money taking a loved for a few good meals, if you are into training then at some point you'll need a PM.

sloppyschleckonds

pbassred wrote:

So the question was really about; when will the bang-for-buck ratio be more favorable.

You need to specify a figure then, relative to your bike would £50 be about right?

pastryboy

Bill B wrote:

How are recreational and competitive long distance runners able to make the most out of their workouts and continue to train and improve without the true equivalent of power meters?

Apples and oranges. Wind changes constantly - makes minimal difference to running but massive differences to a ride.

gaffer_slow

who needs a bike? I find that i can just go out for a brisk walk and head towards an uphill bit of road - i can judge how fast to walk by how out of breath i am getting! A push bike is totally unnecessary when you have legs, ok maybe if you are going to try and enter the Tour of France then getting a bike is worth it - but have you seen the price of them? A decent pushbike will cost you about £150 in Halfords, but you can get a pair of trainers from Asda for less than £20!!!