Carbon Clinchers in the Alps

sj1uk

Im going to the Alps next month, i am currently using Campagnolo Bora Ultra 35's clinchers, should i take then or use a pair of alloy clinchers? I have spoken to a guy who used to work as cycle guide in the Alps and he said take the Boras because technology for carbon wheels especially high end ones has moved on so much in the past few years, can anyone give me any other advice?

First.Aspect

sj1uk wrote:

Im going to the Alps next month, i am currently using Campagnolo Bora Ultra 35's clinchers, should i take then or use a pair of alloy clinchers? I have spoken to a guy who used to work as cycle guide in the Alps and he said take the Boras because technology for carbon wheels especially high end ones has moved on so much in the past few years, can anyone give me any other advice?

I'd take them just in case it rains, if nothing else.

thomasmorris

https://youtu.be/ET1jRVynOBA interesting video here, which doesn't appear to be too biased.

I have cooked a pair of chinese carbon clinchers in the peak district. I take alloy rims with me now if I go to the hills. I still have a pair of carbon clinchers which are great for rides and races where I live, where you sit in the 35-45 kmh for long periods and any braking is done in short bursts for junctions.

In reality I don't think you get much benefit from deep section clinchers in the mountains anyway. You can get alloy rims which are similar weight for much less. I the mountain you tend to spend 80% of your time at 15-25 kmh climbing where aero isn't a big deal, or at 60 kmh+ where you''re main focus is being able to slow for corners, not aero speed!

Sure, pro's will take carbon wheels in to the alps, but they're on tubulars.

First.Aspect

thomasmorris wrote:

https://youtu.be/ET1jRVynOBA interesting video here, which doesn't appear to be too biased.

I have cooked a pair of chinese carbon clinchers in the peak district. I take alloy rims with me now if I go to the hills. I still have a pair of carbon clinchers which are great for rides and races where I live, where you sit in the 35-45 kmh for long periods and any braking is done in short bursts for junctions.

In reality I don't think you get much benefit from deep section clinchers in the mountains anyway. You can get alloy rims which are similar weight for much less. I the mountain you tend to spend 80% of your time at 15-25 kmh climbing where aero isn't a big deal, or at 60 kmh+ where you''re main focus is being able to slow for corners, not aero speed!

Sure, pro's will take carbon wheels in to the alps, but they're on tubulars.

Pretty sure that a bunch of dudes in baseball caps aren't quite as qualified as the materials scientists developing the resins used in decent carbon clinchers, or the engineers designing the wheels made out of them. If you can use carbon fibre composite in race car engine bays, or for brake ducts, I'm pretty sure that with judicious materials choice and construction, a set of perfectly adequate bicycle wheels can be constructed using the stuff.

By the same token, you can get "carbon fibre" that goes bendy when you leave it in the sun. Its about as generic a term as "alloy" or "ceramic".

If you want to chance your arm on open mold Chinese clinchers made using you aren't quite sure what, then fine, but it doesn't reflect all carbon clincher wheels.

I really don't see any safety issues when using a decent set of well tested carbon clinchers from a reputable manufacturer, unless you really don't know how to descend a mountain on your bike - in which case worn out pads are probably going to be a problem for you sooner.

Weight and value compared to aluminium wheels - yup, but they are pretty. Besides, the OP already has a set of Campag wheels worth more than unicorn tears, so why the hell not use them on a cycling trip of a lifetime? What's the point of owning nice stuff otherwise?

imposter2.0

First Aspect wrote:

Besides, the OP already has a set of Campag wheels worth more than unicorn tears, so why the hell not use them on a cycling trip of a lifetime? What's the point of owning nice stuff otherwise?

Because in the wet, they might send him over the edge of a cliff. Apart from that, they are a great idea.

thomasmorris

First Aspect wrote:

Pretty sure that a bunch of dudes in baseball caps aren't quite as qualified as the materials scientists developing the resins used in decent carbon clinchers, or the engineers designing the wheels made out of them.

Did you even watch the video?

The 'dude' in a baseball caps is asking questions, he's not professing to have expert knowledge. But the guy he is interviewing repairs carbon fibre bike components for a living and makes wheels. If you look at his credentials you'll see he's more than qualified to be talking about carbon clinchers, and in fact works as a consultant to those engineers designing the wheels:
"The director Raoul Luescher has more than 25 years experience in aerospace composites and quality assurance. Raoul built his first composite bike in 1992 and is now a design consultant for some major brands."

His point (if you watched the video) was that he's seen many carbon clincher failure from all brands, zipp, easton, reynolds, etc.

He explains why in the video that carbon fibre clinchers aren't a very good design, or choice of material, for a wheel that is subject to high braking temperatures.

I have carbon clinchers (albeit direct buy farsports). But even if I had a big brand name, I wouldn't choose them to take to the alps. If you have aluminium wheels they are more appropriate for the job. Why ruin a once in a lifetime dream cycling holiday by insisting on taking the wrong tools for the job?

First.Aspect

Imposter wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Besides, the OP already has a set of Campag wheels worth more than unicorn tears, so why the hell not use them on a cycling trip of a lifetime? What's the point of owning nice stuff otherwise?

Because in the wet, they might send him over the edge of a cliff. Apart from that, they are a great idea.

I refer you to my first post on this thread.

First.Aspect

thomasmorris wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Pretty sure that a bunch of dudes in baseball caps aren't quite as qualified as the materials scientists developing the resins used in decent carbon clinchers, or the engineers designing the wheels made out of them.

Did you even watch the video?

The 'dude' in a baseball caps is asking questions, he's not professing to have expert knowledge. But the guy he is interviewing repairs carbon fibre bike components for a living and makes wheels. If you look at his credentials you'll see he's more than qualified to be talking about carbon clinchers, and in fact works as a consultant to those engineers designing the wheels:
"The director Raoul Luescher has more than 25 years experience in aerospace composites and quality assurance. Raoul built his first composite bike in 1992 and is now a design consultant for some major brands."

His point (if you watched the video) was that he's seen many carbon clincher failure from all brands, zipp, easton, reynolds, etc.

He explains why in the video that carbon fibre clinchers aren't a very good design, or choice of material, for a wheel that is subject to high braking temperatures.

I have carbon clinchers (albeit direct buy farsports). But even if I had a big brand name, I wouldn't choose them to take to the alps. If you have aluminium wheels they are more appropriate for the job. Why ruin a once in a lifetime dream cycling holiday by insisting on taking the wrong tools for the job?

Honestly, I got as far as the first few minutes about cheap imports ... have now listened to all of it and the rest seems to be well worn stuff about heat dissipation issues, resin softening and so on.

Its a 3 or 4 year old video. Zipp resins have a Tg of over 300C (he claims 180, which might have been the case then). He's quite right that if you started from scratch designing a bike wheel, you wouldn't end up with a rim-braking carbon clincher. But that's not the point. The question is, would you use the latest Bora 35 Ultra's on a holiday in the Alps and will they be safe? The answer is, basically, yes - with the proviso that you have to be relatively competent and not a complete dufus who rides the brakes all the way down a 3000ft descent using pads adapted for aluminium brake tracks.

Equally, if you take any wheel and ride with too much or too little air in the tyres, you are going to have problems. Does that make tyres dangerous? What about tubulars that roll off? Dangerous to use tubs?

I honestly think that this is all a bit out of date, but adequately covers what has been said ad nauseum about Asian imports.

i.e. I wouldn't use your Farsports in the Alps, but I would use my Xentis or Mavic wheels.

PTestTeam

sj1uk wrote:

Im going to the Alps next month, i am currently using Campagnolo Bora Ultra 35's clinchers, should i take then or use a pair of alloy clinchers? I have spoken to a guy who used to work as cycle guide in the Alps and he said take the Boras because technology for carbon wheels especially high end ones has moved on so much in the past few years, can anyone give me any other advice?

Fit some Swiss Stop Black Prince pads and you'll be fine.

I've descended down Monte Grappa which has a lot of switchbacks on a pair of carbon clinchers with these pads and didn't have a problem.

Vslowpace

Personally I wouldn't.

I swapped out my Boras for Fulcrum 5 wheels for the Fred Whitton. Two in our merry band remained on carbon clinchers, one set went pop on the first descent as we waited for the accident to clear the other were fine because he doesn't ever apply his brakes, I just don't have those descending skills or balls so I took the safer option.

thomasmorris

Well, the video is 5 days old. I don't know when the interview was though, but I assumed recently. But I guess the wheels he gets coming through his workshop will be older anyways.

The bora's are 1370g, even mid range alu wheels are only likely to be 200g heavier. If you're spending £1500 on wheels it's likely the OPs alu wheels may be lighter still. For the minor weight penalty I'd still take alu wheels, better braking and piece of mind.

shamrock134

I survived the Pyrennees on my Bora 35s using the supplied red pads. Campagnolo told me they'd be fine with the disclaimer that they are a wheelset for "pro racing". :roll:

I did not and would not use them in the Lake District on descents like Hardknott/Wrynose.

kayakerchris

Discs?

First.Aspect

kayakerchris wrote:

Discs?

By jove, I think that's the answer.

robbo2011

Take the alloy wheels. There's no aero advantage to be gained when climbing and what's the point in taking risks with the poor braking of carbon clinchers if it is wet?

Nobody will be looking to see what wheels you have on your bike, the scenery will be way more interesting! I ride a lot in the mountains and to be honest, you just don't need fancy wheels, they are a liability.

OnTheRopes

Consider some Campag Eurus wheels very good value. Light enough, great hubs and bomb proof. I always ditch my carbons for these if travelling abroad to the montains

DeVlaeminck

I think a lot does depend on your descending skills - a mate of mine cooked a set of brand name (I'm not avoiding naming them just can't remember) carbon clinchers coming down Alpe D'Huez last Summer. Personally I would play it safe and take alloy rimmed wheels partly for the reason mentioned and partly because I prefer the braking on alloy rims but that doesn't mean those who would take the carbons are wrong to do so so long as they know they are fearless descenders.

bernithebiker

First Aspect wrote:

Its a 3 or 4 year old video.

I honestly think that this is all a bit out of date.

Er, it's from last week?

The point the guy is making is that the carbon clincher is a flawed design, which I would agree with, and that manufacturers are trying to work around it.

I don't get why people don't buy the tub option; lighter, cheaper, much better heat dissipation, and a nicer ride.

First.Aspect

bernithebiker wrote:

First Aspect wrote:

Its a 3 or 4 year old video.

I honestly think that this is all a bit out of date.

Er, it's from last week?

The point the guy is making is that the carbon clincher is a flawed design, which I would agree with, and that manufacturers are trying to work around it.

I don't get why people don't buy the tub option; lighter, cheaper, much better heat dissipation, and a nicer ride.

I have no clue where I got that date from. The ether.

Again, though, the question isn't whether or not cf is the best material from which to make a clincher wheel, because it quite clearly isn't. Rather, the question is whether cf clinchers are safe.

Here's a question for the audience - if you interviewed an titanium bike repair specialist who saw a lot of cracked welds, would you think that titanium was a bad idea for a bicycle frame? Or would you instead think that he sees rather a lot of them because that's what he fixes for a living?

JesseD

Mate of mine road the alps on a pair of Carbon Fulcrum Racing Quattros, it was a hot day but with the constant breaking needed to descend safely the rim ended up warped so much he couldn't spin the wheel.

He sent them back to wherever he bought them from and they replaced them FOC.

I do know the wheels he rode in the Alps were only a year of so old, maybe less.

Personally I would ride alu clinchers, I am off to the south of Spain at the end of next season to ride mountains and that's what I will be taking!

First.Aspect

JesseD wrote:

Mate of mine road the alps on a pair of Carbon Fulcrum Racing Quattros, it was a hot day but with the constant breaking needed to descend safely the rim ended up warped so much he couldn't spin the wheel.

He sent them back to wherever he bought them from and they replaced them FOC.

I do know the wheels he rode in the Alps were only a year of so old, maybe less.

Personally I would ride alu clinchers, I am off to the south of Spain at the end of next season to ride mountains and that's what I will be taking!

See point 4 - http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/arti ... deo-44676/

thomasmorris

The thing is, if you don't have experience of riding apline descents, it's hard to know if you're going to be a fast descender.

Then there are variations from road to road. It's easy to brake well when you have 5-8% gradient and 1km between switch backs. But find yourself on a 15% with bends every 200m and it becomes much more difficult.

Even if you are good, it still doesn't mean you'll always be able to descend as fast as you'd like. It's not unforeseeable that slow traffic / re-surfaced roads, other slower riders, could leave you dragging the brakes more than would be ideal (both happened to me on one holiday in Mallorca).

If you've been to the place before, you'll have a good idea of how hard the braking will be, and maybe then you can make a decision to take some carbon clinchers. But otherwise, if you have a set of aluminium, then I think it's a no brainier. It will be negligible in terms of performance, possibly faster if it gets wet.

Also... I get what you're saying that it's no shock that a carbon fibre repairer sees lots of broken carbon. But the point he was making was the high proportion of the faults that are with one design type. And in terms of bias I imagine he'll get more business if he kept quiet or encouraged people to buy carbon... then he gets more repairs.

robbo2011

Hi there First Aspect. Just a quick question, You sound very knowledgeable on the subject, but how much experience do you actually have of riding in the mountains or are you more of an expert of the armchair variety?

fenix

We had a similar thread around a week or two ago - guy going on an alp cycling trip. The guides say to use alu wheels but he wanted to ask us lot what he should do....

Personally I'd go with alu.

First.Aspect

robbo2011 wrote:

Hi there First Aspect. Just a quick question, You sound very knowledgeable on the subject, but how much experience do you actually have of riding in the mountains or are you more of an expert of the armchair variety?

I used to cycle up Cypress Bowl and Mt Seymour regularly when I lived over there, off to Mallorca in a couple of weeks again, really enjoyed Gran Canaria, the view from 11,000ft in the Rockies is awesome, especially if you've earned it. Lucky enough to live close enough to Great Dun Fell and Lowther Hill to do them a few times a year..... but not the Alps yet, oddly enough. Oh, and my round trip commute has about 650m climbing in it.

How about you? Are you just a snide little berk or do you have a bike as well?

sloppyschleckonds

First Aspect wrote:

Are you just a snide little berk or do you have a bike as well?

robbo2011

Just checking, lol. it's amazing how quickly people get wound up after a little bit of push back

Cypress bowl and Mt Seymour sounds great.

For the record I live in Switzerland and ride regularly in the mountains. Since the snow finally melted in June I have ridden 12 different passes over 2000m (highest 2758m, can you guess?) and will be riding 3 more this weekend.

Trust me, those who ride regularly in the mountains (well, the alps at least) don't bother with fancy carbon wheels.

robbo2011

PS, Here is a picture of my bike

Anonymous

Carbon in that steel. Lethal

davidof

robbo2011 wrote:

Trust me, those who ride regularly in the mountains (well, the alps at least) don't bother with fancy carbon wheels.

That is true. I ride most days in the French Alps and the majority of people who pass me on the climb have alu rims - I don't know about the descents, I'm usually going too fast.

Of course that may be because people in France don't have so much ready cash but in Switzerland they can afford to buy the best - Rapha has just opened a shop there.

I have no idea about the Carbon vs Alu debate. I don't brake too much so probably would use carbon rims if I had them. I had a blowout on my GP4s the other day descending at speed, not sure it was heat related or a badly seated tire.

robbo2011

PPS, That isn't really my bike. it belongs to a crazy Italian guy who I bumped into at the top of the Gavia pass a couple of weeks ago.

This is really my bike