Caliper breaking power

the_chief15

A few weeks ago I got the first bike I have owned with caliper rim breaks.

In the past I have rode with cantilevers and Vs, but since 2004ish have only run discs.

I'm finiding the caliper breaks are lacking in breaking power, and i don't know if this is just a performance gap between rim breaks and disc breaks or if the breaking performance can be improved with upgrades.

The current setup is 105 levers, tektro R741 calipers with stock tektro pads.

MikeBrew

Invest in a set of Shimano 105 5800 calipers and you will feel a very significant improvement. You can buy a pair for circa £45. They are said to work best with the 5800 levers, but I have just fitted a pair of these calipers to a bike with 2006 Tiagra levers and they have completed transformed the braking performance.

svetty

MikeBrew wrote:

Invest in a set of Shimano 105 5800 calipers and you will feel a very significant improvement. You can buy a pair for circa £45. They are said to work best with the 5800 levers, but I have just fitted a pair of these calipers to a bike with 2006 Tiagra levers and they have completed transformed the braking performance.

+1 - sound advice.

imposter2.0

BRAKES - please, not breaks.

Either way, I would just get on with whatever brake setup you already have, as changing it in the hope of achieving some kind of 'disc-like' experience is just not going to happen.

kajjal

Even good quality road bike rim brakes have nothing like the power and controlled braking hydraulic discs have. I went from XT disc brakes to Rim brakes and found them to be appalling. After changing them to 105 callipers and swisstop pads they were better but still nowhere near as good. My new road bike had hydraulic disc brakes which are as good as XT disc brakes.

norvernrob

What discs have you been running, cable or hydro? I have TRP Spyre discs on one bike, and SRAM Red calipers on the other. The calipers bite harder, no doubt about it. The discs are fine but they certainly don't make me think calipers are inadequate, nor do I feel the need in the least to 'upgrade' the Red brakes to discs.

I used to have a bike with 105 calipers (2014 model, sold it earlier this year) and in comparison to the SRAM Red they were garbage (same pads, swisstop). In comparison to the 105's however I bet your Tektro are garbage. One of my mates has a Boardman with Tektros and he's constantly running wide on corners after failing to slow, obviously there's some operator error there but the brakes can't be up to much either.

fat daddy

Imposter wrote:

I would just get on with whatever brake setup you already have, as changing it in the hope of achieving some kind of 'disc-like' experience is just not going to happen.

+1

this all the way ... I have gone from using discs for the last gawd know how many years to getting a Bike with Ultegra Calipers ... and its a shock to the system fo rhte 1st few weeks

However after a while you learn to love them again.

you don't need to get a screw driver out to put your pistons back when you take a wheel off and accidently pull the brake lever

they don't squeal in the wet (although to be fair they don't stop either )

they are loads* lighter

they are loads* more aerodynamic

If anything I complain more these days about the disc brakes as I keep mashing them on or sliding the front as I am taken by surprise by the power of them.

Keep your Rims in good condition and learn to read the road ahead, and you will become faster because of it ! ... oh and keep picking your bike up as well thinking "ooooh this is light"

trailflow

Invest in a set of Shimano 105 5800 calipers

+2

You won't achieve a 'disc-like' experience no, but you will be able to lock your wheels up faster. That's all that matters. The 5800/6800/9000 calipers make any Tektro calipers look like toys.

Kajjal wrote:

Even good quality road bike rim brakes have nothing like the power and controlled braking hydraulic discs have.

My DA9000 calipers (which share the same design and functioning as 6800,5800) can throw me over the handlebars within a split second if i tap the lever too hard. Their power is more than good enough and is never left wanting. Their modulation is very tunable via how close you position the pads next to the rims and a screw on the side that changes the brake curve. I've not tried the latest road hydraulic brakes but most other disk brakes ive tried have been over powerful for most situations. They do excell at modulation though. I think disk brakes are really more suited to heavy mtb's/cyclocross bikes. For light weight road bikes not so much. Good caliper brakes are more than adequate. The braking distances (in the dry) between them can't be much different.

kajjal

In the dry , at lower speeds and for lighter weight riders the difference is not as marked. Once you bring in higher speeds, heavier riders, less grippy / looser road surfaces and the wet there is a very significant difference.

The main noticeable difference is the extra power, consistency and control hydraulic disk brakes have. This means you brake harder, while maintaining control and not skidding.

It takes a few rides to get fully used to them. Once you do the difference is very noticeable when you switch back to a bike with rim brakes it is like someone has stolen your brakes.

This a useful example for road bikes :-

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs

figbat

Let's not forget that rim brakes allow the wheels to be lighter, as there is no torque transferred through the spokes from the hub. Particularly the front wheel (obviously the rear wheel drives torque from the cassette, but only in one direction). That said, braking from the hoods also adds a level of compromised leverage.

I love the hydraulic discs on my MTB, but I have accepted the rim brakes on my newly-acquired road bike and they offer all the braking I have needed so far. I took some time to set them up in terms of clearance from the rim and toe.

simon_masterson

Disc brakes are better at braking than rim brakes. End of. Whilst that doesn't mean that more powerful is better on a road bike (you'll just lock the wheel), what matters most is the surfaces involved - a good (and clean) rim surface and a good brake pad will result in good braking. This matters more than the caliper you use. Once you've got that sussed, you need to learn how to brake effectively.

meanredspider

trailflow wrote:

but you will be able to lock your wheels up faster. That's all that matters.

Just poke a stick into your spokes - that'll lock your wheels fastest....

The whole point is that you DON'T want to lock your wheel on the road. The better the brakes, the more you can brake without locking your wheels. There have been so many threads on this.

figbat wrote:

Let's not forget that rim brakes allow the wheels to be lighter, as there is no torque transferred through the spokes from the hub.

This is a pretty small effect in reality because on disc you don't have to allow for brake tracks or brake track wear (or heat disappation), you can compensate for different spoke lacing by using lighter rims and carbon makes even more sense.

Your brakes also become totally independent of tyre size.

In the end it's horses for courses. My Foil has rim brakes and I bought it mostly for riding in NL where there aren't any hills - frankly there I hardly did any braking. In contrast, my 30-mile RT commute here in the Highlands I'd exceed 40mph on single track road descents in the wet. I wouldn't dare do that with rim brakes. My son weighs barely 50kg - rim brakes are OK for him - especially as he tends to ride in the dry.

Anonymous

MikeBrew wrote:

Invest in a set of Shimano 105 5800 calipers and you will feel a very significant improvement.

Its not even an investment, more just putting right what the bike manufacturer skimped on!

As you are having to put their bodge right, you may as well upgrade the pads at the same time.
Pads wear out, so its not like you are wasting money.
Pop them back in when the upgrades wear out, as thats the best time to decide if the upgraded pads were worth it

The 5800's look much better too.

Saying 'stick with what you have' is a very odd way to look at things.
I completely get the concept of adapting to what braking you have, but why not have better brakes to do that with?

5800's pivot differently (and are better for it IMO). Why not just wack some single pivot calipers on if you really want to adapt to poor brakes and have to pull the lever harder than you need to.

You bought a bike with a 105 groupset (assuming 5800 if its new), why would you not want 5800 brakes for £45?
You could have just bought a (cheaper) Sora bike if you don't care about things being nicer!

trailflow

meanredspider wrote:

Just poke a stick into your spokes - that'll lock your wheels fastest....

The whole point is that you DON'T want to lock your wheel on the road. The better the brakes, the more you can brake without locking your wheels. There have been so many threads on this.

Ofcourse you dont want to lock the wheels up, that is until you do and your face is inches away from a car/wall/tree/fence. Then its nice to have the option at your fingertips.

What i meant was better calipers will be able stop you faster when needed as opposed to crap brakes that may not even stop you in time in a sudden braking scenario. Really crap brakes will never lock your wheels up they can be that bad.

whyamihere

trailflow wrote:

Ofcourse you dont want to lock the wheels up, that is until you do and your face is inches away from a car/wall/tree/fence. Then its nice to have the option at your fingertips.

What i meant was better calipers will be able stop you faster when needed as opposed to crap brakes that may not even stop you in time in a sudden braking scenario. Really crap brakes will never lock your wheels up they can be that bad.

When you lock a wheel, you lose braking force and control. You NEVER want to lock a wheel on a road bike.

trailflow

whyamihere wrote:

When you lock a wheel, you lose braking force and control. You NEVER want to lock a wheel on a road bike.

Unless you're about to crash.

If that requires locking the front wheel and endo'ing. Then controling that endo by feathering the lever without going over the bars and coming to a stop then you still have control. So what you say is not true.

imposter2.0

trailflow wrote:

whyamihere wrote:

When you lock a wheel, you lose braking force and control. You NEVER want to lock a wheel on a road bike.

Unless you're about to crash.

If that requires locking the front wheel and endo'ing. Then controling that endo by feathering the lever without going over the bars and coming to a stop then you still have control. So what you say is not true.

Dunno where you dreamt that up, but it's nonsense. Locking a wheel means losing control - and you never want to do that.

trailflow

But in some situations you have very time or distance to come to a controlled stop. Locking the wheel is your only option. You still can have some braking control AFTER locking up. You dont totally loose force or control. My example above proves that. Unless you're saying a controlled endo is a myth and has never happened ?

Anonymous

Surely the point is that the brakes could lock the wheel (when there is more grip between the tyre and road surface) easier than the poor brakes, not that you would want it to.

We are not talking full hydro disc road bike here, so unless anyone purposely has pants calipers/pads to avoid locking a wheel, then its 100% irrelevant anyway.

I have DA direct mount with Swissstop pads and have never thought its too much stopping power, or feared locking a wheel.
Just as you get used to pants brakes, you get used to good ones.

Personally I like the feel, performance and options that good brakes give.

Ber Nard

trailflow wrote:

But in some situations you have very time or distance to come to a controlled stop. Locking the wheel is your only option. You still can have some braking control AFTER locking up. You dont totally loose force or control. My example above proves that. Unless you're saying a controlled endo is a myth and has never happened ?

You don't lock the front wheel to perform a rolling endo or stoppie. You brake hard and shift your weight forward and then it's a question of balance. If you lock the front wheel it will skid, the back wheel will come back down and, most likely, the front wheel will wash out from underneath you.

You may have seen short rolling endos during motorcycle races but that's just a by product of powerful brakes and plenty of front wheel grip - it doesn't lock up. It won't be done on purpose - unless you're Dani Pedrosa...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZTS7foJQf8

lesfirth

My lips are sealed!

trailflow

Ber Nard wrote:

trailflow wrote:

But in some situations you have very time or distance to come to a controlled stop. Locking the wheel is your only option. You still can have some braking control AFTER locking up. You dont totally loose force or control. My example above proves that. Unless you're saying a controlled endo is a myth and has never happened ?

You don't lock the front wheel to perform a rolling endo or stoppie. You brake hard and shift your weight forward and then it's a question of balance. If you lock the front wheel it will skid, the back wheel will come back down and, most likely, the front wheel will wash out from underneath you.

You may have seen short rolling endos during motorcycle races but that's just a by product of powerful brakes and plenty of front wheel grip - it doesn't lock up. It won't be done on purpose - unless you're Dani Pedrosa...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZTS7foJQf8

Not always. Rolling Endo's work how you describe and that's a great knarly example in the video but emergency stoppie's can also be an abrupt wheel lock up - to a controlled stop. You're braking control has to be good to pull off. But it's totally doable. I have do it many times and do it all the time at relatively low speeds if something unexpectedly enters in front of my path. At higher speeds when the momemtum of your weight is too great there is more chance of it being a rolling endo as the weight will propel you forward too fast. Then its a case of control and balancing while rolling while trying not to go over the bars or not to lower the rear wheel too fast as the impact will throw the bike off balance or worst the tyre will impact the ground too hard and puncture.

In an emegency stoppie, the control is about the same things but if your rear wheel returns to the ground too fast you'll have no momemtum to sustain your balance and you will topple over. So slowly lowering the wheel gives you time to regain some balance control.

The front wheel will only skid and wash out if the tyre has poor grip, road has poor grip or loose gravel, or the wheel is not straight,or a combination of those.

lesfirth wrote:

My lips are sealed!

:twisted:

Giraffoto

+1 for 5800 calipers. The current crop of Shimano brakes must be the best cable rim brakes ever. Even though I believe that discs are better, I know I have the best brakes that can be fitted to my particular bike.

mac9091

No one mentioning changing the pads?

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying changing the pads on a tektro setup will make the brakes perform like ultegras, but they will improve the performance without spending that much money.

dennisn

Imposter wrote:

trailflow wrote:

whyamihere wrote:

When you lock a wheel, you lose braking force and control. You NEVER want to lock a wheel on a road bike.

Unless you're about to crash.

If that requires locking the front wheel and endo'ing. Then controling that endo by feathering the lever without going over the bars and coming to a stop then you still have control. So what you say is not true.

Dunno where you dreamt that up, but it's nonsense. Locking a wheel means losing control - and you never want to do that.

Well, you may or may not want to lock up a wheel but panicked braking usually results in it happening, disc or rim brakes.

the_chief15

mac9091 wrote:

No one mentioning changing the pads?

Don't get me wrong i'm not saying changing the pads on a tektro setup will make the brakes perform like ultegras, but they will improve the performance without spending that much money.

I had wondered what improvement I would get switching to Swissstop from the tektro pads, but the overwhelming opinion seems to be get the 105 calipers and prepare to go over the bars.