Long Drop Brake - Good Setup?

cassettequestion
cassettequestion Posts: 41
edited July 2016 in Workshop
Anyone out there using long drop (57mm) brakes and getting good performance? If so, please can you share your setup?

I have a Genesis bike that came with Tektro calipers. Wasn't happy so swapped these for Shimano R451 brakes and put SwissStop black cartridges pads on each. This improved performance but it's still only adequate.

I think part of the problem is the STI levers (4700) I'm using are supposedly not compatible with the R451s but still.. be interested to know others' experiences. I'm even considering getting a new frame!

Comments

  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    I had good performance from my cheap Miche long drop calipers, with equally cheap cartridge pads. These were being used with old Ultegra levers and later with SRAM Apex levers and performance was identical. I would say that either your expectations of performance are unreasonably high, or you haven't set them up correctly. Ultimately, the lever just pulls on a cable, which pulls on the caliper, so we're not talking quantum physics here...
  • cassettequestion
    cassettequestion Posts: 41
    Imposter wrote:
    I had good performance from my cheap Miche long drop calipers, with equally cheap cartridge pads. These were being used with old Ultegra levers and later with SRAM Apex levers and performance was identical. I would say that either your expectations of performance are unreasonably high, or you haven't set them up correctly. Ultimately, the lever just pulls on a cable, which pulls on the caliper, so we're not talking quantum physics here...

    They're setup correctly - it's not quantum physics..
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    cassettequestion wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    I had good performance from my cheap Miche long drop calipers, with equally cheap cartridge pads. These were being used with old Ultegra levers and later with SRAM Apex levers and performance was identical. I would say that either your expectations of performance are unreasonably high, or you haven't set them up correctly. Ultimately, the lever just pulls on a cable, which pulls on the caliper, so we're not talking quantum physics here...

    They're setup correctly - it's not quantum physics..

    In which case, is it possible you are simply expecting too much? What are you comparing their performance against?
  • cassettequestion
    cassettequestion Posts: 41
    Imposter wrote:
    cassettequestion wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    I had good performance from my cheap Miche long drop calipers, with equally cheap cartridge pads. These were being used with old Ultegra levers and later with SRAM Apex levers and performance was identical. I would say that either your expectations of performance are unreasonably high, or you haven't set them up correctly. Ultimately, the lever just pulls on a cable, which pulls on the caliper, so we're not talking quantum physics here...

    They're setup correctly - it's not quantum physics..

    In which case, is it possible you are simply expecting too much? What are you comparing their performance against?

    My last bike had SRAM Apex and was much better. I think I'm perhaps expecting too much out of the long drop calipers, but not of caliper brakes generally.

    I guess I'll have to live with it.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I cannot imagine that 4700 levers are incompatible with R451s. They might not be quite as good as when paired with 4700 calipers, but they should work.

    I have the older BR450 on my winter bike, operated by 4500 levers. Braking was deteriorating so I've just replaced the original all-in one moulded brake blocks with some 5800 cartridges and inserts, but not had the opportunity to road test them yet. I should do this in the interests of science. Could be I've wasted £20 :D

    (I'd already replaced the Tiagra calipers on the summer bike with some 5800s, operated by 5600 STis, and found the braking to be a lot better, so figured that most of the improvement had to be down to the cartridges and inserts)

    On both bikes I did notice the old blocks were quite shiny, so it's likely that was partly to blame for the poorer braking. I have restored them with a good scrubbing on some emery cloth, and they've gone in the spares box with the old Tiagra calipers.
  • bondurant
    bondurant Posts: 858
    I am using Shimano R650 with Swissstop Green pads on alu rims. They are very effective.
  • kajjal
    kajjal Posts: 3,380
    Bondurant wrote:
    I am using Shimano R650 with Swissstop Green pads on alu rims. They are very effective.


    Did the same which works fine but quite poor if you compare to hydraulic disc brakes.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Good job we're not comparing the two then.... ;)
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Kajjal wrote:
    Bondurant wrote:
    I am using Shimano R650 with Swissstop Green pads on alu rims. They are very effective.


    Did the same which works fine but quite poor if you compare to hydraulic disc brakes.

    That's like comparing NiCad batteries with Zinc carbon ones. Mind you, that's been working as a business model for Duracell for decades...
  • Alex99
    Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    cassettequestion wrote:
    Anyone out there using long drop (57mm) brakes and getting good performance? If so, please can you share your setup?

    I have a Genesis bike that came with Tektro calipers. Wasn't happy so swapped these for Shimano R451 brakes and put SwissStop black cartridges pads on each. This improved performance but it's still only adequate.

    I think part of the problem is the STI levers (4700) I'm using are supposedly not compatible with the R451s but still.. be interested to know others' experiences. I'm even considering getting a new frame!

    I have R650 calipers with coolstop salmon operated by 3500 levers. They work very well AFAIK. Do the newer 4700 calipers use the longer cable pull, same as for 5800 and 6800 levers / calipers? If yes, then that gives a mechanical dis-advantage and might make the brakes feel less powerful.
  • Alex99
    Alex99 Posts: 1,407
    keef66 wrote:
    I cannot imagine that 4700 levers are incompatible with R451s. They might not be quite as good as when paired with 4700 calipers, but they should work.

    I have the older BR450 on my winter bike, operated by 4500 levers. Braking was deteriorating so I've just replaced the original all-in one moulded brake blocks with some 5800 cartridges and inserts, but not had the opportunity to road test them yet. I should do this in the interests of science. Could be I've wasted £20 :D

    (I'd already replaced the Tiagra calipers on the summer bike with some 5800s, operated by 5600 STis, and found the braking to be a lot better, so figured that most of the improvement had to be down to the cartridges and inserts)

    On both bikes I did notice the old blocks were quite shiny, so it's likely that was partly to blame for the poorer braking. I have restored them with a good scrubbing on some emery cloth, and they've gone in the spares box with the old Tiagra calipers.

    The 5800 calipers use a different cable pull, so you'll have a mechanical advantage when paired with your 5600 STIs. That will certainly be part of the difference.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Alex99 wrote:
    The 5800 calipers use a different cable pull, so you'll have a mechanical advantage when paired with your 5600 STIs. That will certainly be part of the difference.

    That might explain why I nearly sent myself over the bars first time I tried them despite braking from the hoods... :shock:

    Going to try the 4500 STI / BR450 / 5800 cartridge combo tonight, see how different it feels.
  • jrich
    jrich Posts: 278
    Long drop brakes can be very fussy with regard to cable pull. I'd suggest you try a few different positions to see what works best. Generally I think you want to a making contact with the rim when the lever is half way to the bar of more.
  • cassettequestion
    cassettequestion Posts: 41
    jrich wrote:
    Long drop brakes can be very fussy with regard to cable pull. I'd suggest you try a few different positions to see what works best. Generally I think you want to a making contact with the rim when the lever is half way to the bar of more.

    Well currently, they contact the rims pretty quickly after the lever is pressed. Perhaps I need to let a bit of cable out then?

    I've got the pads pretty much as close to the rim as they'll go currently. The barrel adjusters are wound pretty far in too - i.e. I've only got about a full turn left to move the pads closer..
  • cassettequestion
    cassettequestion Posts: 41
    I guess if the 4700 levers pull more cable, it would make sense to have more slack wouldn't it.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Generally speaking, brakes work by how the pad interacts on the rim - not by how much cable is pulled to get them there. The relative slack in the cable and how much the adjusters are wound in or out doesn't really matter in this case.
  • jrich
    jrich Posts: 278
    cassettequestion wrote:
    jrich wrote:
    Long drop brakes can be very fussy with regard to cable pull. I'd suggest you try a few different positions to see what works best. Generally I think you want to a making contact with the rim when the lever is half way to the bar of more.

    Well currently, they contact the rims pretty quickly after the lever is pressed. Perhaps I need to let a bit of cable out then?

    I've got the pads pretty much as close to the rim as they'll go currently. The barrel adjusters are wound pretty far in too - i.e. I've only got about a full turn left to move the pads closer..

    Definitely let the cable out a bit (or a lot). You might need to play around a bit to find the sweet spot (oi oi!) but it's worth persevering with. I'd be tempted to let the cable out as much as possible (until the lever pulls to a few mm from the bar) and work backwards from there.
  • janwal
    janwal Posts: 489
    I have new Sora levers with Tiagra long reach calipers and ultegra brake pads and holders instead of the Tiagra pads.Braking is very very good with lots of feel.
  • paulbnix
    paulbnix Posts: 632
    I have SRAM Apex on both bikes paired with SRAM calipers on one and Shimano 650 long drop on the other.
    I use the same pads and the same wheels and the long drop braking is not as good - I don't think it ever could be due to differences in the caliper construction.
  • keef66
    keef66 Posts: 13,123
    keef66 wrote:
    Alex99 wrote:
    The 5800 calipers use a different cable pull, so you'll have a mechanical advantage when paired with your 5600 STIs. That will certainly be part of the difference.

    That might explain why I nearly sent myself over the bars first time I tried them despite braking from the hoods... :shock:

    Going to try the 4500 STI / BR450 / 5800 cartridge combo tonight, see how different it feels.

    Well, the first test ride was a bit underwhelming to be honest; nowhere near as good as the 5800 calipers / 5600 levers on the summer bike. Think they are set up pretty optimally too :(
  • Nick Payne
    Nick Payne Posts: 288
    I have the R650 57mm reach Shimano brakes mated with Campagnolo Record levers. With the frame built to put the brake blocks at the bottom of the slot, I can fit full SKS mudguards over 30mm tyres with ample clearance between tyre and guard. Braking performance is fine. The reason for the Campag levers is that they have a quick release for the brakes in the lever, and having a quick release on both brake lever and caliper means that the brake blocks open far enough to remove a wheel with a fat tyre on it without deflating the tyre - a 30mm tyre on an Open Pro rim won't go past the brake blocks with just the one or the other quick release open.

Categories