Rounded allen bolt and cheap extractor - Urgent help please

londoncommuter

Unsurprisingly the 4mm allen bolts that have been holding my bottle cage on for the last 7 years weren't keen to come out and now I've rounded the head. Worst case scenario as they're slightly out so I've now got a partially attached cage, taking my bike out of action.

I'm in a hurry, trying to fix it for tomorrow and was going to resort to getting a screw extractor from Screwfix on the way home tonight (closest place with stock). I've never used anything like these before and the reviews are completely binary with some claiming they're a wonder thing and others that they're made of cheese and don't work at all. Has anyone used these or can recommend anything better that I could still get today (at a reasonable price)?

http://www.screwfix.com/p/screw-extract ... kpid=18643

On a side note, are any of you wise enough to routinely take bolts out and re-grease them even when they're not causing any issues...

Many thanks

jermas

I'd try and get a pair of mole grips on the head of the bolt if bottle cage isn't in the way. Maybe it's worth sacrificing the cage anyway- just to get the bolt out. Soak the bolt with penetrating oil first and leave a few minutes to work its way in.

londoncommuter

jermas wrote:

I'd try and get a pair of mole grips on the head of the bolt if bottle cage isn't in the way. Maybe it's worth sacrificing the cage anyway- just to get the bolt out. Soak the bolt with penetrating oil first and leave a few minutes to work its way in.

Happy to sacrifice the cage if needed (Bontrager carbon one that's still great 7 years later by the way).

I've tried some hefty pliers but the bolt really took some turning with the allen key (I had to use the long bit of the allen key for leverage which is why I had to keep taking it out and turning it round and stripped the head) so the pliers didn't work. I guess you're right though, if the cage wasn't there and with proper mole grips I could get more leverage.

It wasn't getting any easier at all to turn though, something to do with aluminium/steel corrosion? Not sure what the two materials are but does penetrating oil work?

Also not sure cutting a slot in the top and using a screwdriver will give me enough.

I guess as a short term thing I could saw off the cage and then try and live with a 700ml bottle on my seat tube.....

jermas

Mole grips done up very tightly will give you much more grip on the bolt head than pliers. Try turning 1/4 turn anti-clockwise then clockwise (many times) to loosen the bolt. If you try just to remove in one go the bolt might snap.

imposter2.0

If the socket is rounded, it may accept a torx head, or an imperial hex key of similar (slightly larger) size, which may be just be enough to get some purchase on the bolt head.

Man Of Lard

You may need a set of bolt extractors... http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p51010 and maybe a fine drill as well...

lincolndave

Give the thread if you can see it a good dose of plus gas or another good penetrating oil, leave it for 1/2 hour then see if you can undo it, it might also pay you to see if you can work it loose by tightening it a turn applying some more penetrating oil , then try to unscrew it, I would try the tightening / untightening the screw a good few times , ( it sometimes works)

londoncommuter

Lincolndave wrote:

Give the thread if you can see it a good dose of plus gas or another good penetrating oil, leave it for 1/2 hour then see if you can undo it, it might also pay you to see if you can work it loose by tightening it a turn applying some more penetrating oil , then try to unscrew it, I would try the tightening / untightening the screw a good few times , ( it sometimes works)

I've really stripped the head badly (top quality mentally hard allen key and very old soft bolt) so even tightening isn't an option unfortunately.

Man of Lard - is there any reason to go for the Toolstation ones over the Scewfix ones above?

Man Of Lard

Only if Toolstation is closer

haydenm

I've heard of people using a hacksaw to cut a groove in the top and use a screwdriver to to get it out. Might struggle to get to it with a hacksaw though if the cage is in the way.

homers_double

LC, easy-outs are really easy to use. Select the relevant tool and pair it with the correct drill size. Pilot drill the bolt with a small drill first then open it up with the stated drill size. Screw the easy-out in THEY ARE LEFT HAND THREAD and once the force required to tap the thread exceed the force required to free the thread it'll screw out normaly.

Maybe a liberal spray of plusgas would help before you screw into it though just to be on the safe side.

smudgerii

When you refit the new bolts give them a light smear of coppaslip.

Plusgas left on the stuck bolts is your best option, apply heat with one of those mini gas powered soldering irons.

keef66

"On a side note, are any of you wise enough to routinely take bolts out and re-grease them even when they're not causing any issues..."

Oh yes. Bottle cage bolts are Copperslipped and are loosened / tightened annually to make sure they don't get stuck. Constant dribbles of water / energy drink make this almost guaranteed if they are left. On the frame that came with bolts with shallow / tiny heads I replaced them with something meatier.
Pedal threads, screw-in BB cups, brake caliper mounting bolts and those for mudguards / racks also get the copperslip treatment and an annual undo / tighten. They are in the firing line for filthy / salty spray in winter, but one day they'll need undoing. Mounting bolt for the front caliper is especially vulnerable on a bike ridden in the wet without guards; worth taking extra precautions there, - grease the outside of the tubular nut too to deter corrosion and stop it bonding to the recess in the fork. Some people put a bit of tape over it to stop water getting in.

And don't forget to remove the seatpost every 6 months or so. Metal post in a metal frame, light smear of grease. Anything carbon (frame, post or both) then carbon assembly paste is better.

brettjmcc

1 - Try a torque bit tapped into rounded hole
2 - Cut a slot into the bolt

slowbike

If you're happy to sacrifice the bottle cage then I'd use one of these:



but heed the advice on penetrating fluid above!

londoncommuter

What about these, too good to be true? No pilot hole needed and seems to grip the head more than needing to bore into the threaded part itself:

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p38732

I haven't got a tap die handle thing so something that works with a drill looks good.

smudgerii

Ime. Crap.


Plusgas, heat then either the torx head tapped in or molegrips

homers_double

You wouldn't use them with a power tool, a spanner would suffice but they look a bit thick for the size of bolt you're talking about, easy out type tools start at 4mm.

I keep saying easy-out as thats's the brand I have, there are others which do the same job.

lesfirth

In my time as a car mechanic I had to remove lots of seized/stripped /rounded bolts and screws.I was the boss so when everyone else had failed I got the job. My advice is if you can get a pair of mole grips on the screw they are the best option. Toolstation etc. extractors are a waste of time. Snap-on make some good parallel extractors but they need some precision drilling which is difficult in the confines of a bike frame . If you have got it part way out , use some wd40 etc and screw it back in and out again.

londoncommuter

Ludicrous I know but I haven't actually got any molegrips. Screwing back in and out isn't an option now as the head really has gone and the force needed to turn it was still a lot even though partially out.

The extractors just seemed like an "easy" option for just £4 but all the mixed comments make me think it's doomed to failure.

Easy to see the allure of this video for this Argos version of the non-pilot tools (at 28 seconds) as makes it look a breeze so how could I doubt it!

http://www.argos.co.uk/static/Search/se ... emover.htm

fenix

Screwfix sell mole grips.

If you can get to the head of the bolt - I'd use those.

slowbike

If the force you said you needed to turn it is true then I doubt the screw in stud extractors will work.
Molegrips could work - but often the smallness of the head means they don't grip that well - hence I posted a pic of the stud extractor I've used for many a tuff job - the danger with that one is not that you'll bust the tool - you never will - but you could bust the bolt.

You could try a radiator spanners - not quite as good as molegrips - or a monkey wrench - that's another excellent tool to have in the toolkit ... but then I'm coming from replacing engines on MGBs and old boat engine maintenance ...

londoncommuter

One stupid thing I should have mentioned is that the outside of the bolt is round like these (maybe not as round or shiny but you get the point):

http://www.starcyclespares.co.uk/stainl ... 3508-p.asp

Presumably mole grips won't work with them? Sorry if that's a stupid question, I've just not used them before.

fenix

Oh now. Forget molegrips then. What was wrong with the higher profile bolts - they would have worked.

londoncommuter

Fenix wrote:

Oh now. Forget molegrips then. What was wrong with the higher profile bolts - they would have worked.

Maybe 2009 was the time to tell me that

keef66

londoncommuter wrote:

One stupid thing I should have mentioned is that the outside of the bolt is round like these (maybe not as round or shiny but you get the point):

http://www.starcyclespares.co.uk/stainl ... 3508-p.asp

Presumably mole grips won't work with them? Sorry if that's a stupid question, I've just not used them before.

Those are the very things I replaced on the winter bike. Shallow, rounded heads and a 3mm Allen socket. First time I used them to attach a bottle cage I thought they looked likely to cause problems in future so ordered something much meatier, and copperslipped them when fitting. That was back in 2007!

slowbike

another thought may be - if you can - cut the head off the bolt - you can now remove the bottle cage and get those molegrips/stud-extractor/monkeywrench around the actual bolt ...

londoncommuter

So what's the conclusion?

1) Cutting a slot and using a screwdriver not likely to work (doubt I could get enough torque on screwdriver)
2) Mole grips not likely to work (round outer bolt)
3) Screwing in and out to loosen won't work (heads too worn and very stiff unscrewing)
4) Extractor bolts not likely to work but maybe (not sure how I'd grip them though without a die handle)
5) "Magic" drill based extractors that bite into the head not likely to work

What's the best/cheapest option that I can pick up later today (would have to be 24oC down here tomorrow....)

Apologies - I should also have said many thanks for all of the advice so far.

fenix

It's a pain but one water bottle on the seat post would be manageable surely ?

How long are you riding for ? You might just need one more water stop on route somewhere ?

I've never managed to have waterbottle bolt get stuck. How much force did you use on the bugger ?

Have you rounded BOTH bolts ? If not you might be able to use the actual bottle cage to loosen off the stuck bolt - spin it round.

I'd try cutting a slot for a wide screwdriver if not.

londoncommuter

Fenix wrote:

It's a pain but one water bottle on the seat post would be manageable surely ?

How long are you riding for ? You might just need one more water stop on route somewhere ?

I've never managed to have waterbottle bolt get stuck. How much force did you use on the bugger ?

Have you rounded BOTH bolts ? If not you might be able to use the actual bottle cage to loosen off the stuck bolt - spin it round.

I'd try cutting a slot for a wide screwdriver if not.

It's a small frame so not sure I can fit a 700ml on the seatpost but you're right I could just stop for a fill up.

I don't think I put much force on originally, they've just been in place for a long time now. I removed another one a while ago and it's strange when you unscrew them as it doesn't get any easier.

Yep, stupidly rounded both bolts. Really don't think I can get enough force with a screwdriver.

sungod

before applying any more force, use something that'll penetrate and help it move more freely, otherwise you'll end up with a headless bolt jammed in there which'll be harder to remove

if it's corroded, acf-50 is worth a try, otherwise penterating oil, give them time to work, wiggling the bolt back/forth a smidge will help

applying freezer spray direct to the bolt may also help loosen it