how to stop stem bolts ticking?

chatlow
chatlow Posts: 845
edited July 2016 in Workshop
Just bought a new Deda stem. Now during the end of each ride the 2 bolts that clasp the top of the fork start the click/tick when weight is put on the bars.

Soon as I get home and undo them slightly, the tick goes away. Tighten back up and still quiet, but this only lasts until end of the next ride.

Is there anything I can put on the bolts to stop this?

They are being tightened to the correct 5nm torque.

Thanks

Comments

  • thebadgerboy1982
    thebadgerboy1982 Posts: 266
    is the preload of the top cap ok? could be a bearing issue; maybe worn or loose
    Thebadgerboy1982@gmail.com
  • lpretro1
    lpretro1 Posts: 237
    Remove, clean and put a dob of grease on them - when fitting make sure clamp has equal gap top and bottom
  • jermas
    jermas Posts: 484
    It also could easily be the top-cap creaking on the stem- grease should sort it.
  • pilot_pete
    pilot_pete Posts: 2,120
    lpretro1 wrote:
    Remove, clean and put a dob of grease on them - when fitting make sure clamp has equal gap top and bottom

    I would use copper slip anti seize rather than 'grease' as you want to prevent the noise with lubrication but don't want the bolts to come loose or seize...

    PP
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    lpretro1 wrote:
    Remove, clean and put a dob of grease on them - when fitting make sure clamp has equal gap top and bottom

    Hmm just added copper slip grease and top bolt appeared to take ages to get to 5nm. Once set the top clamp looks tighter than the bottom even though both are at 5nm?
    thebadgerboy1982 wrote:
    is the preload of the top cap ok? could be a bearing issue; maybe worn or loose

    Yes preload is good as are bearings. Def clamp related as ticking goes away as soon as i loosen clamp bolts
  • frisbee
    frisbee Posts: 691
    If you lubricate bolts then the torque required to get them up to the correct clamping force is reduced. 5nm is the maximum torque, you can go less.
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    frisbee wrote:
    If you lubricate bolts then the torque required to get them up to the correct clamping force is reduced. 5nm is the maximum torque, you can go less.

    Okay so just guess when it feels tight enough or reduce by 1 or 2nm?

    Fyi the bottom bolt still feels normal and pinches tight around 4-5nm it's just the top bolt that feels loose at that torque and could go to 7 or 8nm. Both bolts have been greased. The steam doesn't get narrower at the top. This doesn't make sense!
  • pilot_pete
    pilot_pete Posts: 2,120
    Pictures?
  • NameTaken
    NameTaken Posts: 45
    If the tick is down to the stem bolts working loose then I would have put some threadlock on rather than grease.
  • on-yer-bike
    on-yer-bike Posts: 2,974
    Have you any spacers above the stem? If not the you might be crushing the top of the steerer tube when you tighten the upper bolt of the stem which is why it takes so long to tighten. This will also depend on your headset plug design. Make sure you tighten both bolts alternatively a bit at a time. Do not keep tightening the upper bolt otherwise yo will be looking for new forks.
    Pegoretti
    Colnago
    Cervelo
    Campagnolo
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    Ticking stopped once adding some copper grease to the bolts. Top bolt still torques tighter that the bottom but I have left it as it is and below 6nm. Checked my other bike which also uses a deda stem and the top clamp on that is also slightly closer than the bottom. Case closed for now. thanks!
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    Don't call it copper 'grease' because it isn't grease. It's an anti-seize compound intended to prevent parts from binding - and not designed for lubrication, where 'actual' grease obviously is.

    You shouldn't be applying copper compound to bolt threads - that's not what it is for.
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    Imposter wrote:
    Don't call it copper 'grease' because it isn't grease. It's an anti-seize compound intended to prevent parts from binding - and not designed for lubrication, where 'actual' grease obviously is.

    You shouldn't be applying copper compound to bolt threads - that's not what it is for.

    But it's worked :mrgreen:

    Was under the impression that it's intended for non-moving parts. If it's meant to move, use grease (bearings etc). If it's not meant to move, then copperslip.

    It was also recommended on here for BB and other bolt threads.

    Also, not sure on the difference between copper grease (which I have) and copperslip.

    Thoughts?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    edited July 2016
    chatlow wrote:

    Also, not sure on the difference between copper grease (which I have) and copperslip.

    Thoughts?

    Copper 'grease' is a misnomer. Copper compound or paste would be a more accurate description. Greases are for lubrication, as you say, whereas anti-seize pastes are not. Copaslip (not copperslip) is a manufacturer's brand name for copper paste.

    It is still oil-based, so it obviously has some lubricating capability (disregarding the copper and graphite particle content and it's propensity to fuck up the surfaces of whatever it is you are trying to lubricate with it). But applying it to bolt threads will change the torque characteristics and could promote component failure.
    chatlow wrote:
    It was also recommended on here for BB and other bolt threads.

    Lots of things get recommended on here. Doesn't make it right.
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    Imposter wrote:
    chatlow wrote:

    Also, not sure on the difference between copper grease (which I have) and copperslip.

    Thoughts?

    Copper 'grease' is a misnomer. Copper compound or paste would be a more accurate description. Greases are for lubrication, as you say, whereas anti-seize pastes are not. Copaslip (not copperslip) is a manufacturer's brand name for copper paste.

    Okay, thanks, I understand that. What's the main reason you wouldn't use it on bolt threads? Just that they are non moving parts so would appear to be okay..
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    See my edited post above. It risks changing the torque characteristics of the bolt.
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    Imposter wrote:
    See my edited post above. It risks changing the torque characteristics of the bolt.


    yeah, re-read it. So you would disagree with the following:

    "grease is a lubricant, threads do not want lubricating. they require either locking or preventing from seizing up."

    If so, then what about using lithium grease on threads? Diving deeper into this because I am due to replace my BB soon.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    chatlow wrote:

    yeah, re-read it. So you would disagree with the following:

    "grease is a lubricant, threads do not want lubricating. they require either locking or preventing from seizing up."

    If so, then what about using lithium grease on threads? Diving deeper into this because I am due to replace my BB soon.

    No I wouldn't disagree with that. Threads generally do not 'want lubricating' unless it is specifically recommended for some other reason. Lithium grease is just grease and falls into the same category as any other lubricant, not to be used on threads.
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    so if threads shouldn't be greased or have copper compound applied, then what would you recommend using?
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    chatlow wrote:
    so if threads shouldn't be greased or have copper compound applied, then what would you recommend using?

    Nothing. I already said that.
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    Imposter wrote:
    chatlow wrote:
    so if threads shouldn't be greased or have copper compound applied, then what would you recommend using?

    Nothing. I already said that.

    Well in an ideal world, yes, but in this case my noisy stem will just remain noisy! Unless there's evidence that using copperslip has a detrimental affect on bolt threads I'm gonna leave it on these as a silent bike is a lovely bike :D
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    You're missing the point. The detrimental effect is the risk you are now running in terms of having stem bolts that are effectively torqued to significantly beyond their original recommended limits. I would take out some dental cover if you don't already have any...
  • chatlow
    chatlow Posts: 845
    Imposter wrote:
    You're missing the point. The detrimental effect is the risk you are now running in terms of having stem bolts that are effectively torqued to significantly beyond their original recommended limits. I would take out some dental cover if you don't already have any...

    Not at all. Like I said, the lower bolt is torqued correctly to 5nm and feels good, the upper bolt is the one that seemed easier to torque up and got tightened to 4.5nm but the clamp is slightly more closed than the bottom one. Neither of them are torqued beyond recommend 5nm. Both had copperslip applied
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    chatlow wrote:
    Imposter wrote:
    You're missing the point. The detrimental effect is the risk you are now running in terms of having stem bolts that are effectively torqued to significantly beyond their original recommended limits. I would take out some dental cover if you don't already have any...

    Not at all. Like I said, the lower bolt is torqued correctly to 5nm and feels good, the upper bolt is the one that seemed easier to torque up and got tightened to 4.5nm but the clamp is slightly more closed than the bottom one. Neither of them are torqued beyond recommend 5nm. Both had copperslip applied

    No, you are still missing the point. 5nm is for dry insertion. If you have lubed the threads, then the torque readings will not be accurate. 5nm lubed is going to put much more stress on the threads than 5nm dry. Consequently, if the bolts are lubed, then they are (inevitably) going to be over-torqued.
  • jermas
    jermas Posts: 484
    Deda stem bolts come pre-lubed so over-torquing wouldn't happen. Anyway if 5nm is the max, then 4nm is what i'd be looking for- so lubed or not, the bolts will always be well within tolerances.
    Stainless bolts (also Ti and aluminium ) should be lubricated to stop galling and seizing. It's also good practice to use lubricant on threads that are made of dissimilar metals, ie stainless bolts into soft alloy.
    Loads of new cycle parts come ready lubed (on the bolts and threads)- cranks, bottom brackets, etc. If bottom brackets weren't greased on fitting, there would be loads of seizing problems.
  • imposter2.0
    imposter2.0 Posts: 12,028
    jermas wrote:
    Deda stem bolts come pre-lubed so over-torquing wouldn't happen. Anyway if 5nm is the max, then 4nm is what i'd be looking for- so lubed or not, the bolts will always be well within tolerances.
    Stainless bolts (also Ti and aluminium ) should be lubricated to stop galling and seizing. It's also good practice to use lubricant on threads that are made of dissimilar metals, ie stainless bolts into soft alloy.
    Loads of new cycle parts come ready lubed (on the bolts and threads)- cranks, bottom brackets, etc. If bottom brackets weren't greased on fitting, there would be loads of seizing problems.

    I think you may be confusing 'lube' with 'thread lock', which is pre-applied on lots of bolts from new. I own a few Deda stems and none of them have ever come with 'pre-lubed' bolts - they have all been dry, untreated threads.

    Your comments on using 'lube' on threads going into dissimilar metals are just plain wrong. For safety critical bolts (like the ones being discussed here), it is only good practice to lubricate if the manufacturer recommends it. Otherwise, it is 'bad practice'...
  • jermas
    jermas Posts: 484
    I'm not confused by anything. I've just dug out an installation guide for deda- "our bolts are pre-greased ". I do understand your concern with over torquing bolts designed for dry installation but as I've said above - don't torque to the maximum.
    I use the term lube because people use many different products to lube threads, grease, anti-seize, wax, moly, PTFE and threadlocker etc . Anti seize (or grease with high solids) should be used on dissimilar metals (stainless/soft alloy), it's used to stop seizing galling and galvanic corrosion. You have to ask yourself why do all lube manufacturers (bike or otherwise) sell anti seize.http://www.loctite.co.uk/lubrication-anti-seize-4488.htm.

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