Forum home Road cycling forum Road beginners

Carbon upgrade advice

iraffbeiraffbe Posts: 8
edited June 2016 in Road beginners
Hello people at BikeRadar.

First of all a small introduction, I think it's the minimum :-)
You can always skip to the read titled "question" it if you don't care !

I've started cycling since I was a kid, like many. Then I started seriously cycling around 11 years old.
My first bike was a Scott mountain bike that had a suspension on the steering. It was at the real beginning. I used it so much, until that suspension would fail and I would end pup holding my steering in my hands.
Few years later I had an Trek 6000, and I used it like crazy, until it got stolen.

Then I was proposed as a gift a new bicycle which at that point I decided Moutain Biking in Belgium center was boring. So I got a Scott S40, my first "race" bicycle. I was so crazy about it, I used it for years, made over 13 000km with it. Traveled with it, and made my first adventure from Paris to Brussels all alone, non stop.
And it was a success even if it was a struggle.

Unfortunately you guessed it, it was stolen as well. But like very advanced braking in the apartment to get it.

I then stopped for years cycling, I was very sad, gained weight, but my legs muscles they never ran away (I use to).

Till 4 months ago where I bought with my own hard earned money, my first Carbon Frame Bicycle !
I got it second hand at a very cheap price and quite in good state.

I got a Scoot CR1 Team (I think the 2013 version). And trust me, I sleep with it next to me. I'm already 4200km on it.

It has a 2 x 9 speed Ultrega, Fulcrum Racing Wheels (I don't know which model), ultrega brakes, etc.

I want all you guys to know, that I have made my life choices on bikes, parts repair, advice, since probably this forum existed. And I can't thank you enough for it. Only now I have found myself in a situation where I can't decide, and I need real advice from people I trust and have been following silently for years.

So I hope you can help me.

Pre-question:
I started making food deliveries as a second job two months ago, I have been doing well even if it's stressful.
I broke a spoke 2 weeks ago, just by hitting a simple bump I think, it was mostly wear I'm guessing.

Roads here a very bumpy and sometimes filled with holes.

So I know you can replace the spoke and go back on again. But I'm thinking of making my first upgrade to a carbon wheel.

It was a very long process I thought about way before it, reading light aluminum can be better, all the choices, what changes, is it worth it. I think my wheels are not so heavy, they should be around 1,5 kg so upgrading to better aluminum won't change a lot. They are ok but they have some really cheap hub, especially the back wheel. It barely spins freely and badly clicks.

My question:
After many research I'm thinking of buying only a rear wheel, the 303 Firecrest from Zipp. I first wanted the NSW which looks awesome especially for the hub it offers, but I convinced myself it was a crazy investment.

What do you guys think ? Is it a good fit for my bike ? I will be using it daily and on bad streets, will the wheel survive ?

And do I have to change my cassette to a 10 or 11 speed (if that's even possible) ?

I did all my research, I was thinking of taking with it Vitoria R+ Endurance tires or R+ Pro (less rolling resistance), with back Swissstop yellow stoppers and front black ones from Swissstop too.

I was using it with high pressure before, 7,5 bar front and 8 bar rear (I'm 65kg)because I was much faster, but perhaps to not destroy my bicycle I think I should from now on use 7 bar.

PS: I spared you my research and decision process for choosing that wheel. But I read from your Chinese Carbon post of like so many pages, to the advice of go real carbon or high quality aluminum but that mid range carbon is useless besides aero advantages. But still if you see better option for me I'm totally open :-)

What is your input on this ?
Your help is very much appreciated and I'll gladly invite you for a beer here in Brussels.

Regards,

Raffi

Posts

  • imposter2.0imposter2.0 Posts: 11,014
    So if I've understood you correctly, you want to put a Zipp 303 on a delivery bike? I'll just leave it there, I think...
  • Man Of LardMan Of Lard Posts: 903
    Imposter wrote:
    So if I've understood you correctly, you want to put a Zipp 303 on a delivery bike? I'll just leave it there, I think...

    At least help the man out - he needs to read this thread :)
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    If your current rims are still OK I'd just service the hubs and replace the broken spoke. After 4 months / 4000km they should really be fine

    If however for some reason they are really knackered, replace them with some cheap, basic Shimano R501s. They have a decent number of spokes and will stand up well to the rigours of food delivery on rubbish roads. Some Conti GP 4 Seasons will help.

    Putting a Zipp carbon wheel on the bike you describe would be madness.
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,824
    Architype rim on Shimano 105 hub with 28 spokes would be my suggestion. I can't believe the OP is serious.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • iraffbeiraffbe Posts: 8
    Well it isn't really a delivery bike is it ?
    I use it for occasional deliveries but it's not it's main purpose and neither my main job.
    I still ride hundreds of km's on normal roads in weekends.

    That's why for me it seems plausible so I can have nice training on weekends and benefit from it on the job.

    That model can't have Carbon Rims ?

    Or you're just pointing out the obvious fact that I will completely f*ck up my Carbon Wheel, till it blows up and kills me, and ruins me. Since it's too harsh use on shitty road on a regular basis :-)

    You have to understand I never in my life even thought I could afford a carbon bicycle. So Carbon Wheels is a completely unknown field for me. I upgrade all my IT stuff and customize every piece of hardware since I'm a computer engineer. But I never really thought or engaged in changing parts of my bike. Would just maintain it.

    I know from what I read that Chinese rims are censored and fend, and break very easy. And that any Carbon wheel if you break too much will explode from eat or shatter.
    Yes this I know.
    But I read ZIPP's wheels were very strong for daily usage. After I don't know definition of daily usage and conditions.

    That's why I came to you guys for advice in the beginner section eh :-)

    And you probably saved me form a stupid mistake so..

    From two last replies I'm guessing having more spokes will make my wheel much more resistant to use and abuse.

    I think my front RIM is fine for sure, but I definitively would replace rear wheel or hub for sure.
    So drlodge it's better to get that new wheel with the HUB you suggest then to replace the hub of my wheel ?

    I'm worried about adjusting correctly spokes, but I'm sure I'll find out a tutorial, I just don't want to die from it at 50km/h in town :P

    And sorry I ask again, do I have to changed casette completely to a 10 speed with that hub since I have a 9 speed or I just unscrew it from old wheel screw it back to knew hub ?

    Side question, I'm on the same shitty standard helmet Scoot for like 6 years that barely hold up.
    Is taking a Giro MIPS category a good choice even if it's crazy expensive ?

    Thanks again for your help guys, don't mock me I'm good in what I know IT, for the rest I'm not ashamed to ask for advice :-)
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    If you replace the rear hub or the entire wheel it will come with a freehub body attached. You just unscrew the lockring and the cassette will slide off the splines of your old freehub, and you transfer it to the new one.

    Have a look online to see vids on youtube; you'll see what tools you need and how to do it
  • iraffbeiraffbe Posts: 8
    Thanks for the reply!

    Do I take 36 or 32 hole hub & RIM? You recommend 28 spokes but minimum is 32 (http://www.wiggle.com/h-plus-son-archetype-road-rim/). Sorry want to be sure!

    And spokes are provided with RIM? Since I think they need specific length but not sure.

    Thanks again
  • webboowebboo Posts: 3,128
    I might be wrong but Zip hubs are 10 or 11 speed so you might find they won't work with your 9 speed.
  • cougiecougie Posts: 22,512
    Don't go for the expensive zipp wheels. They'll make your bike stand out when you're delivering. And there're more for racing rather than pizza delivery.

    6 years is a long time to have a helmet. It's probably ok but I'd be looking to get a new one. Id not bother with The latest model. Get last year's one and it'll be far better value for money.
  • iraffbeiraffbe Posts: 8
    cougie wrote:
    Don't go for the expensive zipp wheels. They'll make your bike stand out when you're delivering. And there're more for racing rather than pizza delivery.

    6 years is a long time to have a helmet. It's probably ok but I'd be looking to get a new one. Id not bother with The latest model. Get last year's one and it'll be far better value for money.

    Indeed, perhaps when I'll have made enough money I'll have two sets of wheels :-)

    Thank for the advice, much appreciated.

    Wanted last model because of this new MIPS technology.

    Anyone can advise me please for the purchase of rim/hub (see my previous message)? Don't know 36 holes or 32 and if spokes come with rim or not.
    Thank again!
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,824
    Rims, spokes and hubs are all sold separately, you will need spokes of the correct length (2 different lengths on the rear, DS and NDS). You clearly have little idea as to what's involved so suggest you ask your local bike shop or wheel builder.
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Rims don't come with spokes.
    Largely because you need to use a spoke calculator to work out what length spokes you need. Depends on the rim, the hub, and the lacing pattern you use. For a rear wheel the drive-side spokes are usually shorter than the non-drive side.

    ETA: wot he said^
  • iraffbeiraffbe Posts: 8
    edited June 2016
    drlodge wrote:
    Rims, spokes and hubs are all sold separately, you will need spokes of the correct length (2 different lengths on the rear, DS and NDS). You clearly have little idea as to what's involved so suggest you ask your local bike shop or wheel builder.

    Yes I don't know about purchasing. I found online how to build the wheel but for sure I'll let shop find adjust it.

    Well reason I'm asking here and not a shop is because many shops I trusted closed in Brussels. And shops that are left are dishonest people. My spoke broke actually because during last maintenance the guy tightened them hard on purpose when all I wanted was speed adjustments.

    So yeah I don't have a good trustworthy shop and I don't want to end up with bad product and be stupid.

    I found a good shop I think that can build the wheel.

    Can you just help me with HUB and rim please ?

    The H Plus Son Archetype Road Rim you recommended looks good.

    The Shinamo 105 HUB is it the best quality long lasting one I can get ?
    From what I read online it's quite good but after some time requires ball bearing change ?

    I don't mind paying a bitter more if you think there is a higher end HUB and I don't mean lighter this I don't really care to the gram.

    Lastly if I have a 9 speed cassette, since I'm changing the hub can I upgrade to a 10 or 11 speed without changing the pedals ?

    If yes and it will allow me to go faster on flat it's an interesting upgrade for me.
    I currently have a 2X9 speed.

    I'll offer you guys literally a beer for your help or even a little Paypal donation, I just need real good advice for stuff that will last me for years :-)

    Thanks !
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    I find it hard to believe you can't find a decent bike shop in Brussels. It's in Belgium apparently. Aren't all Belgians obsessed with cycling and beer?

    My advice: find a cycling club. You'll get lots of friendly advice, and people who will probably want to help you do it yourself, or lend you the tools, or even do it for you. At the very least they'll be able to point you in the direction of a decent bike shop.

    I've maintained / repaired many bikes over the past 45 years, and recently built 3 bikes from scratch, but don't have the time or patience to learn wheelbuilding. Maybe when I retire...
  • iraffbeiraffbe Posts: 8
    keef66 wrote:
    I find it hard to believe you can't find a decent bike shop in Brussels. It's in Belgium apparently. Aren't all Belgians obsessed with cycling and beer?

    My advice: find a cycling club. You'll get lots of friendly advice, and people who will probably want to help you do it yourself, or lend you the tools, or even do it for you. At the very least they'll be able to point you in the direction of a decent bike shop.

    I've maintained / repaired many bikes over the past 45 years, and recently built 3 bikes from scratch, but don't have the time or patience to learn wheelbuilding. Maybe when I retire...


    Sorry I updated my post, have a look :-)
    I did some quick search in the meantime because I just remembered a pro biker who was using a shop for builds, and that shop still exist !
  • drlodgedrlodge Posts: 4,824
    Shimano 105 hubs will be fine.

    You can physically fit a 10 or 11 speed cassette on the new hub, but it won't work with your 9 speed shifters. You need to keep a 9 speed cassette, or change both cassette and shifters (expensive). Additional gears won't make you go "faster", just reduces the gap in ratios between gears. And gears have nothing to do with pedals!
    WyndyMilla Massive Attack | Rourke 953 | Condor Italia 531 Pro | Boardman CX Pro | DT Swiss RR440 Tubeless Wheels
    Find me on Strava
  • iraffbeiraffbe Posts: 8
    drlodge wrote:
    Shimano 105 hubs will be fine.

    You can physically fit a 10 or 11 speed cassette on the new hub, but it won't work with your 9 speed shifters. You need to keep a 9 speed cassette, or change both cassette and shifters (expensive). Additional gears won't make you go "faster", just reduces the gap in ratios between gears. And gears have nothing to do with pedals!

    Indeed I didn't think of the gears shifters.
    Ok I'll take the 105.
    There are several versions, I'm guessing the Shimano 105 5800 Rear Hub is the best one to pick ?
    And how many holes ? It doesn't have 28. More spokes stronger but heavier or doesn't matter much ?
  • keef66keef66 Posts: 13,123
    Correct, more holes = slightly heavier wheel (more spokes + nipples) but one which will be more tolerant of abuse (heavy rider, rubbish roads, loaded touring)

    Spoke count should be determined by rider weight and intended use...
  • trailflowtrailflow Posts: 1,311
    What's the point of a new aero Zipp rear wheel if the front wheel is censored , non aero and in poor condition ? Half their performace will be lost. For the price of 1 odd looking inappropriate Zipp wheel you can buy a very nice set of wheels. What benefit do you think carbon will give you ? Zipp hubs are overated and nothing special. Their rims are known for not melting and thats about it. i doubt in flat Belgium you will ever come close to overheating them. Zipp wheels are not pothole proof. You could still damage the carbon if you bottomed out the tyre on a pothole. They are not particularly light either. They are quite wide also (26.40mm at the brake track) and may not fit your frame.

    Do you really need aero wheels ? Carbon aero wheels are not the be all and end all. Their quantifiable benefit is very little if you're not competing or racing against a clock.

    What other wheels have you considered ?

    What is your budget ?

    If you can find a replacement spoke. Consider servicing your current hubs. Especially if the rims have plenty of life left in them. That could bring them back again and give them a new lease of life. Either try do it yourself or pay a bike mechanic to do it.

    a 105 hub and archetype wheelset is definitely going to be heavier than 1500 grams (they will probably around 1800+ grams) so could actually perceive to perform worst than your current wheels. At 65kg there is no real reason why you should need 32 or 36 spokes wheels unless for touring.

    Before buying handbuilts. Do as much research on hubs,rims and spoke combinations first. And not just buy the first recommendation on here (not knocking it) but it may not be right the wheelset.
    Read this big thread
    viewtopic.php?f=40042&t=13020726

    Find and speak to a wheel builder in your area. They will talk you through the plusses and minuses and may have a set prebuilt and ready to buy that could suite your needs. i would recommend not to try and build and true them yourself. As the tools needed are quite expensive like a wheel truing stand,wheel dish tool,spoke tension gauge,prep etc. It's not a job for a beginner and needs practise to get right. Your first builds wont be that great and could leave you dissatisfied. A lower spoke count wheel will be harder to build also.

    a 105 hub and archetype wheelset can be bought online prebuilt.

    Next why not consider some of the best value,best reviewed factory wheel options like

    Campagnolo Zonda
    Shimano Ultegra 6800
    Fulcrum Racing 3
    Mavic Ksyrium Elite

    Above those
    Shimano RS81 C24
    Shimano Dura Ace 9000 C24
    Campagnolo Eurus
    Fulcrum Racing Zero

    All top notch wheels for the price or alot less than 1 Zipp rear wheel.

    Any 9 speed cassette will fit fine on a 10/11 speed hub with a spacer behind it.
    I think my front RIM is fine for sure, but I definitively would replace rear wheel or hub for sure.
    So drlodge it's better to get that new wheel with the HUB you suggest then to replace the hub of my wheel ?

    Probably not possible as your current hub will possibly have an odd number of spokes to prevent this. 105 hubs only come in 32 or 36 hole. Your current spokes could also be proprietary to the rims and hub. If they are normal j-bend spokes , a new hub will need to match the same number of spokes. New spoke lengths will need to be calculated from rim and hub data. If the rim is already badly worn. It will be pointless to replace the hub only.
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