Compatibility regarding shifters and calipers

vault94

My front caliper on my bike broke, so I'm going to go ahead and replace it, the broken one is a Tektro R540, my shifters are 10 speed Shimano Tiagra, I've been looking at buying these Shimano 105 5800's and I may go a head a replace the rear caliper as well. (My full bike spec is at the bottom)

In the description it says - "Must be used in conjunction with ST-5800, ST-6800 or ST-9000 STIs for correct leverage ratio"

The calipers are here: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/shimano-105-5800-brake-caliper/

Will these still work?
Would you recommend anything else over these? - I'm not concerned about weight.
What does the 5800 mean?
Will I see an improvement with these shifters over the old pair? (to justify replacing the rear)

Here's my spec:
http://www.bikeradar.com/road/gear/cate ... -14-48284/

Thanks

Matthewfalle

Yes they will work but they won't feel as sharp or work as well unless you use the correct pairings.

Why not use the matching Tiagra calipers for your brifters.

Tektro brakes are pretty good so why not use them?

trailflow

Guessing because he wants better brakes and Tektro's are no match for the new Shimano brakes which are leagues ahead.

The 5800 calipers have alot of adjustment via a small screw on the side of the caliper which hugely changes the brake curve and feel at the lever. Because of that i think you will be able to find a workable setting quite easily.

5800 refers is the model number. The olders versions were 5700,5600 etc

StillGoing

I've got 5810 brake callipers working perfectly ok with SRAM Force 22 levers. (SRAM don't make direct mount brakes which is why I have Shimano ones.)

Matthewfalle

trailflow wrote:

Guessing because he wants better brakes and Tektro's are no match for the new Shimano brakes which are leagues ahead.

The 5800 calipers have alot of adjustment via a small screw on the side of the caliper which hugely changes the brake curve and feel at the lever. Because of that i think you will be able to find a workable setting quite easily.

5800 refers is the model number. The olders versions were 5700,5600 etc

They're only leagues ahead if the pull ratios are correct. Otherwise they are much of a muchness, so it's all a moot point going around the roundabouts.

Then again, I have Tektro R750 carbon brakes on one bike and they are just as good as Ultegra for feel and stopping power. And they are lighter. Who'd have thunk it...........

trailflow

Matthewfalle wrote:

They're only leagues ahead if the pull ratios are correct. Otherwise they are much of a muchness, so it's all a moot point going around the roundabouts.

Then again, I have Tektro R750 carbon brakes on one bike and they are just as good as Ultegra for feel and stopping power. And they are lighter. Who'd have thunk it...........

So says you. No they are leagues ahead in design,materials,construction,craftmanship. Maybe some of that has trickled into their braking performance too regardless of pull ratio. Im guessing you've done a pull ratio test of your own to conclude that ? i sense some Tektro fanboyism are you lesfirth ?

dj58

The Shimano compatible chart shows that your 10sp ST-4600 STI's are compatible with the BR-5800 105 brake calipers.

Matthewfalle

trailflow wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

They're only leagues ahead if the pull ratios are correct. Otherwise they are much of a muchness, so it's all a moot point going around the roundabouts.

Then again, I have Tektro R750 carbon brakes on one bike and they are just as good as Ultegra for feel and stopping power. And they are lighter. Who'd have thunk it...........

So says you. No they are leagues ahead in design,materials,construction,craftmanship. Maybe some of that has trickled into their braking performance too regardless of pull ratio. Im guessing you've done a pull ratio test of your own to conclude that ? i sense some Tektro fanboyism are you lesfirth ?

So angry. Don't be. It's ugly.

Not really a Tektro fan - only have one set of their brakes on 6 bikes - running Campy Record, Rival, Older Dura Ace, latest Ultegra and older Ultegra, and the Tektros are just as good as Ultegra.

I'm sorry if they don't have your particular favorite branding but they work better than Ultegra. Again, apologies.

To tell the truth though, the way you've worded your email backs me up completely, so thank you very much for that. Much appreciated.

Matthewfalle

trailflow wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

They're only leagues ahead if the pull ratios are correct. Otherwise they are much of a muchness, so it's all a moot point going around the roundabouts.

Then again, I have Tektro R750 carbon brakes on one bike and they are just as good as Ultegra for feel and stopping power. And they are lighter. Who'd have thunk it...........

So says you. No they are leagues ahead in design,materials,construction,craftmanship. Maybe some of that has trickled into their braking performance too regardless of pull ratio. Im guessing you've done a pull ratio test of your own to conclude that ? i sense some Tektro fanboyism are you lesfirth ?

Construction and craftsmanship? They're computer designed (well, tweaked each year to suit marketing and a taste of performance) mid range sub £50 brakes made in infinite numbers in a faceless factory by a machine from the cheapest materials that Shimano can use to get their costs/performance ratio in line.

They're not exactly fashioned one at a time by ex-ninja craftsmen sweating, toiling, persevering over single blocks of billet aluminum constantly fettling to get the ultimate brake caliper.

They're nice enough but I'd hesitate very, very much to mention the words "Ultegra" "craftsmanship", l"leagues ahead" and "construction" in the same sentence.

Again, apologies if you like them. We're all different.

trailflow

Why the smartarse reply? What are you apologisng for ? what are you appreciating ? :?

You say your Tektro's are 'just as good' then go on to say 'they are better' than Ultegra's. Make your mind up, or are they both ?

Have you ever bothered to observe what you purchase ? The 9000,6800,5800 calipers were re-designed from the ground up not re-hashed from old. Do you understand the mechanical advantage and unique design feature that seperates them from other calipers ? yeah no new idea's or innnovation at all. Tektro's must be leading the way.....

i'd guess the company with longest history,most experience,most resources,best facilities,better reputation and higher expectations are producing the better brakes. Just a wild guess though.

dgunthor

back to the original topic - any shimano caliper will work well, 5600/5700 might work a little better than 5800 due to pull ratio.

shimano often state that x won't work with y when it will - v brake lever with a road brake caliper being a classic example

keef66

I've just fitted 5800 calipers to my summer bike, paired with the older 5600 levers. They work astoundingly well, and noticeably better than the Tiagra calipers they replaced.

dombo6

I have 6600 ultegra levers with 6700 callipers. Compatibility table says this combination is not compatible. It is fine, modulation is good and the brakes do as they're meant to.

svetty

@ OP: Just to put on record that I have real world experience of 5800 series 105 with 10 speed levers and their performance is a significant improvement over 5700/older gen calipers (probably because of the reasons suggested by trailflow). Not fan-boy hypothetical speculation but practical experience. Having said this I'd expect Tiagra 4700 brakes to be a good solution too - esp as you have Tiagra shifters

Same goes with DA 9000 series brakes and 7800/7900 shifters.......

vault94

Hey, thanks for the replies. The shifters I'm using are Tiagra 4600's I think it was 4600-L on the side of them. So should I replace the Tekro 540 calipers with Shimano 105 5800 or Shimano Tiagra BR4700 Calipers? In terms of performance will I actually see an improvement? I only need to replace the front caliper as the rear works fine but I just figured it's best to keep them the same.

dgunthor

vault94 wrote:

Hey, thanks for the replies. The shifters I'm using are Tiagra 4600's I think it was 4600-L on the side of them. So should I replace the Tekro 540 calipers with Shimano 105 5800 or Shimano Tiagra BR4700 Calipers? In terms of performance will I actually see an improvement? I only need to replace the front caliper as the rear works fine but I just figured it's best to keep them the same.

either shimano one should be fine, the 5800 should be a little better but they both have the 'new' shimano pull ratio. both should be better than the tektro

lesfirth

trailflow wrote:

Matthewfalle wrote:

They're only leagues ahead if the pull ratios are correct. Otherwise they are much of a muchness, so it's all a moot point going around the roundabouts.

Then again, I have Tektro R750 carbon brakes on one bike and they are just as good as Ultegra for feel and stopping power. And they are lighter. Who'd have thunk it...........

So says you. No they are leagues ahead in design,materials,construction,craftmanship. Maybe some of that has trickled into their braking performance too regardless of pull ratio. Im guessing you've done a pull ratio test of your own to conclude that ? i sense some Tektro fanboyism are you lesfirth ?

Hello - just seen my name in print. I have not contributed to this thread. I have done it all before.

I am not a tektro fan. I do have some on my winter bike. All I have said in the past is that, with the same pads, cheap dual pivot calipers will stop your bike as good as expensive dual pivot calipers. Design is the same. Materials,construction and craftsmanship make no difference to performance. If you do not agree please give me sound technical/engineering reasons why I an wrong.
Pull ratio has no effect on cost of manufacture.

rolf_f

trailflow wrote:

Do you understand the mechanical advantage and unique design feature that seperates them from other calipers ?

He probably doesn't but, as you do, maybe you could explain "the mechanical advantage and unique design feature" so that we can all understand how good they are?

I'm cynical so I suspect the only difference is an ever so slight lengthening/shortening of caliper or lever to give a slight change in feel that makes no practical difference whatsoever but does make the bike magazine reviewer go "ooooh, isn't it powerful and progressive"

keef66

I don't know what it is about the 5800 calipers that makes them so much more effective than the 4500s they replaced, but at best I'd guess it's 5% the caliper itself (it is beefier and likely to flex less, and it may have better mechanical advantage) and 95% down to the brake blocks themselves. They do look so much better though

I'll let you know if I get the same dramatic improvement in braking when I fit new 5800 cartridges / holders to the BR450s on the winter bike. It will be the same upgrade from the all-in-one moulded type brake blocks to cartridge inserts in metal holders.

I'm optimistic because the same inserts are used in Ultegra and Dura Ace brakes too, and they tend to get even more glowing reviews :roll:

lesfirth

keef66 wrote:

I don't know what it is about the 5800 calipers that makes them so much more effective than the 4500s they replaced, but at best I'd guess it's 5% the caliper itself (it is beefier and likely to flex less, and it may have better mechanical advantage) and 95% down to the brake blocks themselves. They do look so much better though

I'll let you know if I get the same dramatic improvement in braking when I fit new 5800 cartridges / holders to the BR450s on the winter bike. It will be the same upgrade from the all-in-one moulded type brake blocks to cartridge inserts in metal holders.

I'm optimistic because the same inserts are used in Ultegra and Dura Ace brakes too, and they tend to get even more glowing reviews :roll:

In posts on the subject ages ago it was agreed, by some of us ,that flexing in the caliper does not matter. To understand why you have to know why a rubber crowbar is as good as a steel one!

cassettequestion

So there'd be no point in me buying some TRP 957 calipers to replace Shimano R451s, assuming I fit the sme pads to each?

svetty

cassettequestion wrote:

So there'd be no point in me buying some TRP 957 calipers to replace Shimano R451s, assuming I fit the sme pads to each?

The R451s are long drop brakes so different to the ones referred to in the thread you have posted in. I'd suggest re-posting your question in a separate thread - or searching for a pre-existing thread about long drop /R451 brakes :!:

keef66

lesfirth wrote:

keef66 wrote:

I don't know what it is about the 5800 calipers that makes them so much more effective than the 4500s they replaced, but at best I'd guess it's 5% the caliper itself (it is beefier and likely to flex less, and it may have better mechanical advantage) and 95% down to the brake blocks themselves. They do look so much better though

I'll let you know if I get the same dramatic improvement in braking when I fit new 5800 cartridges / holders to the BR450s on the winter bike. It will be the same upgrade from the all-in-one moulded type brake blocks to cartridge inserts in metal holders.

I'm optimistic because the same inserts are used in Ultegra and Dura Ace brakes too, and they tend to get even more glowing reviews :roll:

In posts on the subject ages ago it was agreed, by some of us ,that flexing in the caliper does not matter. To understand why you have to know why a rubber crowbar is as good as a steel one!

OK, so now I have tested the combination of 4500 levers, BR450 calipers and 5800 holders / inserts. It's set up optimally as far as I can tell, and the braking is nowhere near as good as with the 5600 levers + 5800 calipers on the summer bike. May well have spent £20 for very little gain

Maybe the 5800 calipers are contributing more than I gave them credit for.....