Would you have done anything?

finchy

DeVlaeminck wrote:

If my aunty had balls she'd' be my uncle. You may be right that he was a victim of his upbringing but the same could be said for many unpleasant people.

BelgianBeerGeek wrote:

That's the point. Live by the sword, die by it. Yes, you could argue from a safe point that some may have not had much choice, but lots of kids had to join the Hitler Youth and did not become die hard Nazis. I stand by my last post.

Yes, but the original poster asked the question of what we would have done. And if we had been brought up from the age of 11 or 12 with constant propaganda, telling us that Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, Slavs, the mentally ill, etc. were subhumans who were responsible for all your country's misery, who among us have been able to see through the lies? Would we know that the "science" we were being taught about racial hierarchy had no basis in reality?

Obviously we all hope that we would be the ones who didn't fall for the Nazis' crap, but can we put our hand on our hearts and say that yes, we definitely would have rejected it all? I can't do that.

crumbschief

PBlakeney wrote:

There is shoot happening all over the World today.
What are we doing about it? Heads in sand. Anybody want to do anything?

What do you fancy?

Frank the tank

Throwing a curved ball in here.

The air crews of bomber Harris's campaign had to wait 70 years for their war medals as they were perceived to have carried out crimes against humanity. They were merely doing their duty in an arena of total war. Seventy years on I am not going to condemn them for killing thousands of "the enemy".

The second war was a mess all around and people did what they did right or wrong. I didn't live through it and I doubt anyone on this forum did, so lets all take a step back and be a bit less judgemental/pious because the second war was awful, and until you're in war on a battlefield you don't know how you would react.

DeVlaeminck

Is saying you don't think you would have joined the military wing of the Nazi party being pious ? Pretty low bar if it is.

Frank the tank

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Is saying you don't think you would have joined the military wing of the Nazi party being pious ? Pretty low bar if it is.

I don't know, I didn't live in Nazi Germany, did you?

pblakeney

crumbschief wrote:

PBlakeney wrote:

There is shoot happening all over the World today.
What are we doing about it? Heads in sand. Anybody want to do anything?

What do you fancy?

I'm happy munching on the sand, much like most others.
My point being that it is easy to be a keyboard judge but we, most of us, are not really any better.

DeVlaeminck

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Is saying you don't think you would have joined the military wing of the Nazi party being pious ? Pretty low bar if it is.

I don't know, I didn't live in Nazi Germany, did you?

No you are right, Hitler might have been alright to I suppose.

Frank the tank

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Is saying you don't think you would have joined the military wing of the Nazi party being pious ? Pretty low bar if it is.

I don't know, I didn't live in Nazi Germany, did you?

No you are right, Hitler might have been alright to I suppose.

I don't think Hitler was alright, no more than you do, but, neither of us lived in Nazi Germany did we. Millions followed/believed in him he took a country on its knees and turned it around and put money in their pockets. They were prepared to overlook the political opponents being sent to concentration camps, and the gypsies and homosexuals then he got around to the jews.

Parallels can be drawn in this country now and how people on benefits are demonised if they were to be shoved into concentration camps I'm sure there would be a lot who would agree with it and they would quite happily be a guard in such camps for a wage. Don't say I'm going OTT, I know people who think as such the read the sun or the daily mail. People on benefits are the scum of the earth! Pretty much like Jews,socialists and homosexuals in Nazi Germany.

ddraver

Unsurprisingly a lot of my Dutch friends grandparents lived under occupation during the war. By far, most people quietly put up with it and kept their heads down and put up a few young Nazis and then looked after Allied soldiers when they arrived.

shockedsoshocked

Pross wrote:

Don't forget the SS were also an elite regiment in the army, in effect they were similar to Guards regiment in that they were formed as a sort of body guard unit, and often people joining armed forces want to join the 'best' regiment they can. So it's certainly possible someone might have joined for non-ideological reasons.

In my brief spell at Hull studying history I did an essay (can't remember the exact question) on the SS. I remember reading an account from a former SS soldier who became extremely disillusioned with being an elite soldier, basically stating he'd been raised from being a young kid to believe how superior he was as an aryan to the slavic peoples, only to be sent to the Eastern Front to shoot women and children. He wanted to test himself on the battlefield against the Bolshevik hordes not murder the defenceless.

Don't know how relevant it is to the op but an account i always found interesting.

chris2392

Whether he knew what he was signing up for or not he probably had absolutely no choice in what he had to do, either he killed or he was.

However, even if he didn't know what he was signing up for. He has probably felt remorse for the majority of his life but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was there, he took part and so earlier in his life he deserved prison but at his age now? No. They should have jailed him in his 60s? Jail at 95 is going to be no different to the retirement home he is probably in.

I understand that the survivors and the family of the millions of victims need convictions but to me a 4 month trial on a conviction that is going to make little to no difference to his life seems like a massive waste of money.

Alex99

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Pross wrote:

Don't forget the SS were also an elite regiment in the army, in effect they were similar to Guards regiment in that they were formed as a sort of body guard unit, and often people joining armed forces want to join the 'best' regiment they can. So it's certainly possible someone might have joined for non-ideological reasons.

In my brief spell at Hull studying history I did an essay (can't remember the exact question) on the SS. I remember reading an account from a former SS soldier who became extremely disillusioned with being an elite soldier, basically stating he'd been raised from being a young kid to believe how superior he was as an aryan to the slavic peoples, only to be sent to the Eastern Front to shoot women and children. He wanted to test himself on the battlefield against the Bolshevik hordes not murder the defenceless.

Don't know how relevant it is to the op but an account i always found interesting.

You would feel pretty disillusioned to discover that you are a subservient coward.

surrey_commuter

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Is saying you don't think you would have joined the military wing of the Nazi party being pious ? Pretty low bar if it is.

I don't know, I didn't live in Nazi Germany, did you?

No you are right, Hitler might have been alright to I suppose.

I don't think Hitler was alright, no more than you do, but, neither of us lived in Nazi Germany did we. Millions followed/believed in him he took a country on its knees and turned it around and put money in their pockets. They were prepared to overlook the political opponents being sent to concentration camps, and the gypsies and homosexuals then he got around to the jews.

Parallels can be drawn in this country now and how people on benefits are demonised if they were to be shoved into concentration camps I'm sure there would be a lot who would agree with it and they would quite happily be a guard in such camps for a wage. Don't say I'm going OTT, I know people who think as such the read the sun or the daily mail. People on benefits are the scum of the earth! Pretty much like Jews,socialists and homosexuals in Nazi Germany.

You know people who think people on benefits should be put in concentration camps and would happily, for a wage, guard them? To clarify do they mean extermination or detention camps?

I struggle to believe that anybody that stupid could be a net payer into society - you should point out that if benefits are expanded to include pensions, child benefit, tax credits, education, use of the NHS then they could find themselves the wrong side of the wire

slowbike

chris2392 wrote:

Whether he knew what he was signing up for or not he probably had absolutely no choice in what he had to do, either he killed or he was.

However, even if he didn't know what he was signing up for. He has probably felt remorse for the majority of his life but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was there, he took part and so earlier in his life he deserved prison but at his age now? No. They should have jailed him in his 60s? Jail at 95 is going to be no different to the retirement home he is probably in.

I understand that the survivors and the family of the millions of victims need convictions but to me a 4 month trial on a conviction that is going to make little to no difference to his life seems like a massive waste of money.

I don't think Prison is doing anything for anyone - at 94, 5 years will probably see him die in prison - jailing him is revenge as it's not really going to prevent him from doing the same again now.
But - perhaps he's not remorsful on the part he played - perhaps he thinks he should be given a pardon - perhaps he should? I wasn't there at the trial so I don't know.

Alex99

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Is saying you don't think you would have joined the military wing of the Nazi party being pious ? Pretty low bar if it is.

I don't know, I didn't live in Nazi Germany, did you?

No you are right, Hitler might have been alright to I suppose.

I don't think Hitler was alright, no more than you do, but, neither of us lived in Nazi Germany did we. Millions followed/believed in him he took a country on its knees and turned it around and put money in their pockets. They were prepared to overlook the political opponents being sent to concentration camps, and the gypsies and homosexuals then he got around to the jews.

Parallels can be drawn in this country now and how people on benefits are demonised if they were to be shoved into concentration camps I'm sure there would be a lot who would agree with it and they would quite happily be a guard in such camps for a wage. Don't say I'm going OTT, I know people who think as such the read the sun or the daily mail. People on benefits are the scum of the earth! Pretty much like Jews,socialists and homosexuals in Nazi Germany.

You know people who think people on benefits should be put in concentration camps and would happily, for a wage, guard them? To clarify do they mean extermination or detention camps?

I struggle to believe that anybody that stupid could be a net payer into society - you should point out that if benefits are expanded to include pensions, child benefit, tax credits, education, use of the NHS then they could find themselves the wrong side of the wire

It would be an interesting execise to apply the criteria of a points-based immigration system to everyone, especially those that favour the idea of a points-based immigration system.

Can we realistically imagine political developments over the next 5-10 years, where there could be a blind eye turned to real persecution of minority or vulnerable groups?

Alex99

Slowbike wrote:

chris2392 wrote:

Whether he knew what he was signing up for or not he probably had absolutely no choice in what he had to do, either he killed or he was.

However, even if he didn't know what he was signing up for. He has probably felt remorse for the majority of his life but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was there, he took part and so earlier in his life he deserved prison but at his age now? No. They should have jailed him in his 60s? Jail at 95 is going to be no different to the retirement home he is probably in.

I understand that the survivors and the family of the millions of victims need convictions but to me a 4 month trial on a conviction that is going to make little to no difference to his life seems like a massive waste of money.

I don't think Prison is doing anything for anyone - at 94, 5 years will probably see him die in prison - jailing him is revenge as it's not really going to prevent him from doing the same again now.
But - perhaps he's not remorsful on the part he played - perhaps he thinks he should be given a pardon - perhaps he should? I wasn't there at the trial so I don't know.

I wonder if anyone tried to plead insanity as a defense for something like this?

ukiboy

Alex99 wrote:

ShockedSoShocked wrote:

Pross wrote:

Don't forget the SS were also an elite regiment in the army, in effect they were similar to Guards regiment in that they were formed as a sort of body guard unit, and often people joining armed forces want to join the 'best' regiment they can. So it's certainly possible someone might have joined for non-ideological reasons.

In my brief spell at Hull studying history I did an essay (can't remember the exact question) on the SS. I remember reading an account from a former SS soldier who became extremely disillusioned with being an elite soldier, basically stating he'd been raised from being a young kid to believe how superior he was as an aryan to the slavic peoples, only to be sent to the Eastern Front to shoot women and children. He wanted to test himself on the battlefield against the Bolshevik hordes not murder the defenceless.

Don't know how relevant it is to the op but an account i always found interesting.

You would feel pretty disillusioned to discover that you are a subservient coward.

Perhaps a tad simplistic.. We can comment easily on what happened 70 odd years ago, in the comfort of our armchairs, safely ensconced behind our keyboards.
I've known many former members of that hideous organisation and most if not all of the men I knew were put in an impossible situation. A rock and a hard place springs very much to mind.

finchy

ukiboy wrote:

I've known many former members of that hideous organisation

Interesting. Feel like adding any more details?

ukiboy

No I'm afraid because I feel that the modern 'I know everything about right and wrong and morality and black and white' etc brigade will be very quick to judge.
I can tell you this: we are VERY lucky living in these days and I mean from post war onwards. It's easy and inconsequential for us lucky baby boomers and x generation to

put forward our theories and opinions but the generation of my dad had tough, difficult and impossible decisions to make.
Our 'first world problems' revolve around the EU referendum.
My dad and his generation, regardless of what side they were on had substantially more difficult choices to make..

Alex99

ukiboy wrote:

No I'm afraid because I feel that the modern 'I know everything about right and wrong and morality and black and white' etc brigade will be very quick to judge.
I can tell you this: we are VERY lucky living in these days and I mean from post war onwards. It's easy and inconsequential for us lucky baby boomers and x generation to

put forward our theories and opinions but the generation of my dad had tough, difficult and impossible decisions to make.
Our 'first world problems' revolve around the EU referendum.
My dad and his generation, regardless of what side they were on had substantially more difficult choices to make..

Yes, it was a simplistic assessment of the situation for the young soldier, joining the SS thinking it is one thing only to find out it is something different. It's hard to have a lot of sympathy when we know what the decision was.

You point to difficult choices. They might have been difficult, or for some, they might not have been.

ukiboy

Or the choices may not have been choices. They may have been - join up or face certain death.

On the other side (the winning side and therefore the 'good guys' side) the choice would have been similar. The Red Army would have pushed their cannon fodder forward with no consideration of human rights, whether their troops lived or died, indeed, if the average Russkie grunt hesitated, he or she would have got a ration of lead.
The Nazi's and the Soviet's = same type of scum basically.

Frank the tank

Surrey Commuter wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Frank the tank wrote:

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Is saying you don't think you would have joined the military wing of the Nazi party being pious ? Pretty low bar if it is.

I don't know, I didn't live in Nazi Germany, did you?

No you are right, Hitler might have been alright to I suppose.

I don't think Hitler was alright, no more than you do, but, neither of us lived in Nazi Germany did we. Millions followed/believed in him he took a country on its knees and turned it around and put money in their pockets. They were prepared to overlook the political opponents being sent to concentration camps, and the gypsies and homosexuals then he got around to the jews.

Parallels can be drawn in this country now and how people on benefits are demonised if they were to be shoved into concentration camps I'm sure there would be a lot who would agree with it and they would quite happily be a guard in such camps for a wage. Don't say I'm going OTT, I know people who think as such the read the sun or the daily mail. People on benefits are the scum of the earth! Pretty much like Jews,socialists and homosexuals in Nazi Germany.

You know people who think people on benefits should be put in concentration camps and would happily, for a wage, guard them? To clarify do they mean extermination or detention camps?

I struggle to believe that anybody that stupid could be a net payer into society - you should point out that if benefits are expanded to include pensions, child benefit, tax credits, education, use of the NHS then they could find themselves the wrong side of the wire

That is how thick and intolerant some people are,unfortunately.

slowbike

Chris Bass wrote:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-36560416

He knew people were being killed in Auschwitz and didn't do anything to stop it. What was he supposed to do? If he said anything to anyone he would probably have been arrested, locked up, killed, all 3?

would you have done anything in his situation?



Disclaimer - the holocaust was one of the most horrific things to have ever happened in history and I am not trying to belittle it or in anyway make it a trivial topic.

It's gone way past the times where it would happen - but how "low" would the courts go? Would they now jail the people who were in charge of the cooking and cleaning (*I'm crap at history - but I think they got the captives to do the grunt work) ?

Some people lead, others follow - and whilst I do believe you can hold responsible those who did, I don't think you should hold people responsible for things they did NOT do.
If you're going to start holding people responsible for not speaking out about their superiors killing others then wtf would you do about the situation in WW1 where troups were sent "over the top" to certain death - no chance of achieving anything.

DeVlaeminck

We've seen examples from Europe relatively recently - Yugoslavia say - which suggest that what we may feel will never happen can happen. I'm not suggesting the holocaust will be repeated but we should never think we are somehow beyond our society descending into a pretty dark place.

That said I don't believe a majority of Germans supported what Hitler did and I do think IF a man made a free choice - and I accept that was not always the case - to join the military wing of the Nazi party then they have some culpability - it isn't just standing by because they are scared or powerless. It may be that post war for reasons of pragmatism only the bigger fish were pursued but that doesn't mean there weren't people lower down the chain of command who made choices for which they shoulder blame.

Alex99

DeVlaeminck wrote:

We've seen examples from Europe relatively recently - Yugoslavia say - which suggest that what we may feel will never happen can happen. I'm not suggesting the holocaust will be repeated but we should never think we are somehow beyond our society descending into a pretty dark place.

That said I don't believe a majority of Germans supported what Hitler did and I do think IF a man made a free choice - and I accept that was not always the case - to join the military wing of the Nazi party then they have some culpability - it isn't just standing by because they are scared or powerless. It may be that post war for reasons of pragmatism only the bigger fish were pursued but that doesn't mean there weren't people lower down the chain of command who made choices for which they shoulder blame.

I think you've got this bang on.

There are some situations where, if you have opportunity to stop something from happening, not doing so makes you culpable. We see on-going discussion on where the line lies e.g. reporting suspected child abuse or terror plots. There is a spectrum, but I think many would view the "I was trapped / forced / just doing my job" argument having dimished impact in one who has actively joined e.g. the SS.

ddraver

I get what you mean but that's where - for a general discussion, not one specific to this man - the years of propaganda and brainwashing is important.

This is a Stephen Fry point but remember the letters sent by the guards at Auschwitz along the lines of "Dearest Mummy, a busy day, 6 trains arrived and we had to process them all immediately. You would have been so proud of us and how efficiently we did it. I am proud to be helping my Fatherland in it's efforts against those who would tear us down" and so on.

The language is casual, that of someone clearing up a bug infestation, there is no sense of we proudly marched these triators to their just rewards, they arent even afforded the status of being a traitor - you have to be human to be a traitor.

DeVlaeminck

Yes take your point and it leads to the question of how do you ever apportion blame or praise if we are all the victims of our upbringing. If some of our sickest murderers could be shown to have had their personalities distorted by a dysfunctional childhood does it mean they aren't to blame ?

One of those questions which you can argue either way - certainly the Nazi propaganda allied to the socio-economic circumstances in Germany and social norms etc may explain the behaviour of this concentration camp guard but does it actually excuse it ?

There were after all many millions of Germans who did not support the Nazis and even those who may have had sympathies with Hitler initially who would have turned away when they realised the inhumanity of what he was doing.

pblakeney

I would have pointed out the error of their ways and told them to stop.
Okay, probably not but it makes as much sense as this debate.

TheBigBean

In general, I'd like the time between war crime and prosecution to be reduced quite a bit. That would help prevent the war crimes in the first place.

There still seems to be plenty of people who are perfectly happy to follow orders even when death isn't their alternative. I'd like to think I wasn't one them, but so would most people. Most people don't bat an eyelid though when the war crimes are committed by their own country.

Alex99

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Yes take your point and it leads to the question of how do you ever apportion blame or praise if we are all the victims of our upbringing. If some of our sickest murderers could be shown to have had their personalities distorted by a dysfunctional childhood does it mean they aren't to blame ?

One of those questions which you can argue either way - certainly the Nazi propaganda allied to the socio-economic circumstances in Germany and social norms etc may explain the behaviour of this concentration camp guard but does it actually excuse it ?

There were after all many millions of Germans who did not support the Nazis and even those who may have had sympathies with Hitler initially who would have turned away when they realised the inhumanity of what he was doing.

These are mitigating factors. Presumably this is taken into account in sentencing. That's why I wondered about pleading insanity a page or so ago. If someone's view of the world is so distorted etc... but still, it isn't a full excuse in my opinion.

I suppose it could be viewed as a pyramid, where at the top, are a small number of psycopaths that look for opportunities to kill without outside influence, and at the bottom there are a big majority that would refuse to kill, or at least be very resistant to coersion to kill. Inbetween, there would be a significant number that wouldn't need a lot of persuasion to kill and some that seek out opportunity to do so in the appropriate culture. These people still getting sentenced aren't at the bottom of the pyramid.