Dalby Courtyard Cafe

Ouija

Long time visitors to Dalby may remember that the Courtyard and Visitor center cafe's were taken over a couple of years back and had a bit of a makeover. Namely going for a more Costa/Coffee shop vibe (fancy coffees, biscuits for the price of a small mortgage) over the greasy spoon vibe of the previous 'Purple mountain' owners.

In recent months neither cafe has been doing well and (thanks to a change in management) the Forestry Commission has asked the Courtyard cafe to revamp itself and focus on servicing and attracting the biking community in particular. However, staff are struggling to think of what sort of things bikers want from a cafe.

Is there such a thing as a bike specific cafe or are there just cafe's that just happen to be on a popular cycling route?

What sort of foods do mountain bikers and roadies look for in particular when sitting down for a meal rather than just grabbing a snack?

Do you want Cappuccinos and Latte's at exorbitant prices or would you prefer a cheap brew and buttie's for just a few quid?

What sort of things do you look to buy to stick in your backpacks or jersey's?

Are there other services that you would like to see (drink top ups for your water bottle, pre made packs you can just grab and go etc)?

Would you like to see things like barbecues in the summer months?

Any suggestions, just leave your comments below.

Cheers.

thekickingmule

Ouija wrote:

Do you want Cappuccinos and Latte's at exorbitant prices or would you prefer a cheap brew and buttie's for just a few quid?

Definitely the latter.

Everything else you've suggested - Yes.

If you make it cheap and cheerful, you'll get customers coming back for more, and that little extra bit as its affordable.

Bikers want high energy foods. Energy bars, kendal mint cake, flapjacks etc. Also, a good hearty meal to finish the ride. Jacket potatoes, chilli, pie, curry, anything. But make it taste good, not too expensive (this is doable!) and you'll make a nice earner.

BBQ's would be awesome, an evening ride followed by a BBQ sounds fantastic!

Have a mains water tap that people can fill up their bottles and camelbaks for free. I'd probably buy a cup of tea with some cake, maybe some energy bars and then fill up my pack. Some will just get the free water, but let them do it.

Get in touch with Mountain Bike UK, and ask them. They'd help you out probably more than us.

fenix

There are loads of bike cafes around. The owners would do well to get out and visit a few and see what makes them successful.

JBA

'Fancy' coffees are great, as long as they are a decent price.

As TKM says, bikers want energy foods such as flapjacks, etc and a decent post-ride meal. I think the trick is to have a limited menu of good quality food at reasonable prices. This means food orders can be turned around quickly, quality can be maintained and the outlay for ingredients is minimised.

BBQ's are a good idea but difficult to operate - plans can be scuppered by weather, how many punters to cater for, etc.

It's a difficult trick to pull off as the cafe needs to cater to bikers, walkers and families. Make it too relaxed and families may be turned off. Make it too 'nice' and dirty, sweaty bikers may not use it. It can and is done though. Have a look at the cafes at Llandegla, Cwmcarn and FoD for example. Three quite different set-ups but they all work well and are pulling the customers in.

Ouija

JBA wrote:

'Fancy' coffees are great, as long as they are a decent price.

As TKM says, bikers want energy foods such as flapjacks, etc and a decent post-ride meal. I think the trick is to have a limited menu of good quality food at reasonable prices. This means food orders can be turned around quickly, quality can be maintained and the outlay for ingredients is minimised.

BBQ's are a good idea but difficult to operate - plans can be scuppered by weather, how many punters to cater for, etc.

It's a difficult trick to pull off as the cafe needs to cater to bikers, walkers and families. Make it too relaxed and families may be turned off. Make it too 'nice' and dirty, sweaty bikers may not use it. It can and is done though. Have a look at the cafes at Llandegla, Cwmcarn and FoD for example. Three quite different set-ups but they all work well and are pulling the customers in.

I think the general idea is that the Visitor center cafe a few hundred metres away will cater for families and do the fancier stuff (i've been told they are thinking of hiring a proper chef) while the Courtyard Cafe targets bikers (since it's in the same building complex as the cycle hire place). However, there are a few drawbacks as i see it.

1) The company that currently has the contract for the two places insists on a 80% profit on all sales (hence the expense). Not to mention the rent they have to pay to the Forestry Commission (something like 12%, i believe). This makes lowering the prices harder.

The current employee who works down there most of the week has offered to take over running of the place for the Forestry Commission, instead of his employers, which would help lower prices considerably has he doesn't subscribe to the "80% profit on all sales" policy that they do and knows how much more business he would get if prices were lowered. However, that is contingent on the current owners of the cafe losing their contract with the Forestry Commission (which may be a possibility as the Forestry Commission is very unhappy with the way the current contract holders are running things, especially the constant closures of the Courtyard Cafe due to lack of staff).

2) Lack of advertising on the Forestry Commissions part.

Seriously. I rode past that cafe every day for two years without even knowing it was there (until i was browsing Google maps one day). It's not visible from the road and the Forestry Commission forbid any signs or advertising that would announce it's presence to passers by (which is just shooting themselves in the foot if you ask me). I imagine most bikers accidentally stumble across it when hiring a bike from the bike center.


While the two companies squabble over the above two problems the staff at the cafe are stuck between a rock and a hard place, trying to think up ways of bringing in more customers while having their hands tied behind their backs (hence this post for suggestions). While i believe a change in menu and a few extra bike related features may help attract more bikers and increase sales a little i don't think it's going to see a major improvement until one company stops trying to fleece customers and the other stops the former from advertising. But the staff hold a different opinion so keep up with the suggestions. Especially on the kinds of food you'd like to see as this is something the staff do have a degree of control over.

Briggo

oxoman wrote:

As mentioned above if they run it similar to llandegla they can't go far wrong. Good simple and quality food well presented in reasonable quantities and quickly.

I'd second that, they should take a trip to Llandegla I think that is one of the busiest cafes of any trail centre (Coed Y Brenin comes close second in my experience too).

They also need to as mentioned reduce the ruddy price of the carpark for Dalby, £8 is ridiculous (albeit cheap for a day out) but for £8 I'd expect more trails than there is at Dalby given what other trail centres can offer that are also run by the FC.

Ouija

Somehow i don't think the staff can take time off work to go traipsing round the country to look at how other cafe's are run. Especially as they currently have no management (resigned in a huff) and are nearly working every day of the week. Certainly the new management (if they find a replacement) could do something like that as could the higher ups in the Forestry Commission, if they wanted to (i suspect they don't).

But the lowly staff making the teas and coffees have been left with the unenviable task of trying to bring more customers in themselves without much (any) help from management. Hence my request for suggestions from people who've already been to other cafes and can give an insight into what sort of products and services they offer.

Personally, i think it's a bit of a pointless struggle as things need to be changed by the people at the top of the system, not the bottom, but keep up the suggestions.

FishFish

What wins in Thetford Foresty - my home base is the outdoor seating. I totally agree with Oxoman and Briggo - simple stuff but you have to shhip loads of it if you are going to maintain viability. I question the meal after .the bike ride - I've always left the track, maybe stop for a tea and cake but the ritual of shower, pub and meal is one that i doubt could be substituted for by a meal at the trail centre cafe. Going back to Thetford - this is a family centre with loads of stuff going on and so gets the large footfall to allow for variety of catering options and it sems to work. I think the FC could recognise that there really is a demand for family days out in the woods in Dalby and put in or franchise other activitiers as in Thetford and maybe reduce the parking fee - again as in Thetford.

rockmonkeysc

I like to be able to ask for coffee and get a mug of brown, wet stuff and no further questions about frothy milk or any of that toss.
And I want tea which is just tea. None of that infusion crap, just tea. I want it tea flavour, not peppermint or rosehip or dandelion and organic clam batter flavour.

Briggo

Ouija wrote:

Somehow i don't think the staff can take time off work to go traipsing round the country to look at how other cafe's are run. Especially as they currently have no management (resigned in a huff) and are nearly working every day of the week. Certainly the new management (if they find a replacement) could do something like that as could the higher ups in the Forestry Commission, if they wanted to (i suspect they don't).

Without proper research into an already established market is key, you need to understand what those, who are doing it right, are doing exactly and learn from (not copy).

Theres no competition at trail centres, so if you're still not getting the footfall then there's clearly huge issues that they need to face up too.

If the staff are that busy, then it can't be that bad? Either its busy or its not, if its not busy then get investigating to learn', if its busy and they don't have time to investigate then it can't be that bad.

Ouija

Briggo wrote:

If the staff are that busy, then it can't be that bad? Either its busy or its not, if its not busy then get investigating to learn', if its busy and they don't have time to investigate then it can't be that bad.

The staff are that busy because they've been decimated to a fraction of what they're supposed to be, with only one member of staff (the eldest) working the Courtyard Cafe on their own (when he can get away from the more popular Visitors Center Cafe). Hence the reason the Courtyard Cafe is shut for large parts of the week.

What's more, with the exception of that oldest member of staff the remaining staff at the Visitors center are 16/17 year old kids, often from employment agencies, with no training and no knowledge of how to do some of the stuff the management used to do (order stock, cash up, open/close the premises etc) so it's hard for him to be down at the courtyard cafe and leave them to get on with it without making a mess. Most of the trained older members of the serving staff have left over the last few months. Essentially leaving the Courtyard Cafe to be either shut most of the week or run by that one guy who has to serve at the tills, prepare food and do all the washing up etc simultaneously (instead of dividing the task up between 2/3 members of staff).

And then, to add insult to injury, he has the Forestry Commission on his back telling him the Courtyard Cafe needs to be open every day of the week and he needs to do something to pull in the "biker" crowd. But he's not management, just a lowly service assistant/waiter so has no real control over pricing or anything (hence the reason he approached the FC with an offer of taking over and running the cafe himself as manager). Until then he has to struggle with coming up with ideas to improve business via the only thing he does have any control over... and that's the menu.

He asked me the other day, as a biker and regular customer, what sort of things me and other cyclists would be interested in so i thought i'd throw the whole idea out there to bikeradar as i really don't know that many cyclists offline (and pretty much order the same cup of tea/scone year in, year out).

fenix

That sounds a bit crap then.

Cyclists love good basic food and cakes. Lots of cakes.

Beans on toast, lashings of tea, milkshake, coffee, cake. you won't go far wrong.

Cyclists cafes have been going for decades. Even googling will give you details.

I don't think Bbq will work. Too dependent on weather. Cakes aren't.

Good luck with it.

Briggo

Fair enough.

I'm not sure what he intends to do but me personally would be looking elsewhere for employment as the FC sound like absolute t****

kirby700

I've been there a few times before it changed hands. Always seems too much money for what you got and prefer to drive to Thorten le dale.

thistle_

+1 for
Making it more visible - we didn't know it was there until we went to wrong way at the start of one of the trails and saw it.
Reducing the car parking - you don't want to be paying £5 for a sandwich (exaggeration) when you've just paid £8 to park.
Keep it cheap and simple. The old cafe at Glentress, the cafe at Dalbeattie or the "tea room" at Dolfrwynog (Coed y Brenin)

Other ideas:
More indoor seating for when the weather's not as good?
Offer something different to the main visitor centre? Both seemed to do the same things at the same prices. Often National Trust places have a restaurant for proper meals and a separate cafe which just does sandwiches, drinks and cakes and that seems to work well.

Why are there two cafes at Dalby in the same place anyway? Are they trying to keep the mountain bikers away from everyone else at the visitor centre?
Out of the two, we preferred the courtyard cafe over the main visitor centre one, it just felt friendlier.

drlodge

Coffee and a big slice of cake for under a fiver. That is all.

musclebeach

I do Dalby and after a ride I like a good quality mocha and a good hearty tasty fresh sandwich.... don't Mind paying the extra so I'm your ideal customer....rather that than know at the end of the ride I've just got a simple brew and cheap sandwich to not look forward to, Forest of Dean have a great cafe if that helps....lots of locally sourced ingredients and after a ride I expect to be paying about a tenner to eat and top back up