Short legs - long body. Struggling with fit for off-the-peg

meggiedude

Hi there,

I am looking to replace my 2010 Spec Allez comp 54cm bike with a new carbon replacement.
I've always struggled with off-the-peg bikes (and can't afford custom fit) as I have disproportionally short legs and a long body.
The 54cm Spec (500mm Seat-tube, 548mm Effective Horiz Toptube) is great but is a compromised fit. As I have to use a 120mm stem to get a fit, but at least with that I get the seat higher than the handlebars and a more racier setup, rather than sit-up-and-beg I would get with a bigger frame.
Plus I don't rupture the family jewels when standing astride the bike

I am looking for carbon bike with a if possible a sloping top tube to accommodate my short legs. Typical budget £1000-1200 ish - prepared to stretch a little

I have looked at:
Ribble R872 (50cm), which looks a nice bike
Ribble Evo Pro Carbon 48cm or 52cm (a bit old in the tooth now)
Planet-X Pro Carbon 48(M) or 52(L) (similar the the Ribble Evo Pro Carbon)
Dolan L'ÉTAPE 48cm or 52cm (looks a nice bike - but again I fall between sizes.

Any other suggestions??

Cheers

thegreatdivide

I know this keeps getting trawled out over and over again, but spend a bit of cash and get a good bike fit, then you'll have a base line for any bikes you fancy.

FWIW I also have short legs and a long torso. This doesn't mean you need a long stem. Quite the opposite. You'll probably find that you need the seat lowered and set back and a shorter stem which, depending on how good your flexibility is, might need the spacers removed. I'm 171cm, run bikes with 53cm top tubes, a 90mm stem which is slammed and saddles on 25mm set back posts (or pushed back on lesser set backs) and saddle to BB height of 67cm. This gives me a long and low 'flat back' position but about 5/6cm of saddle to bar height.

No disrespect but folk need to get out of this 'my bike must look Pro with a high saddle' mind set. Go see a good fitter and get sized up properly.

ddraver

I feel your pain...

I'd say that there's nothing wrong with a 120cm stem though...

darkhairedlord

20mm shims under the cleats, that should even it up.

DeVlaeminck

I think a long stem is the way to go, setting your saddle back with short legs is going to stick you behind a standard kops position, ok you may prefer that but if we are talking standard bike fit a long stem makes more sense. I agree with Deedee too 12cm is within normal range.

With manufacturers providing stack and reach figures now it should be relatively easy to find something long and low - off the top of my head PlanetX normally fit that way but beware as someone on another thread found out some lack two sets of bottle cages.

If you are really struggling a long stem with a steep angle on it should help a lot, I'd be very surprised if you can't get a decent fit on most race geometry bikes that way.

meggiedude

Thanks for the feedback

thegreatdivide wrote:

I know this keeps getting trawled out over and over again, but spend a bit of cash and get a good bike fit, then you'll have a base line for any bikes you fancy.

Thats fair comment and maybe I will have to - again. The issue here is I am then going to be matching up a off-the-peg bike that I can afford, with a geometry fit which appropriate to me.
BTW, I already have a baseline fit that I am comfortable with that gives me no back pain, or knee pain - its my 54cm Spec, but its getting old/decrepit like me and I fancy something different

thegreatdivide wrote:

FWIW I also have short legs and a long torso. This doesn't mean you need a long stem. Quite the opposite. You'll probably find that you need the seat lowered and set back and a shorter stem which, depending on how good your flexibility is, might need the spacers removed. I'm 171cm, run bikes with 53cm top tubes, a 90mm stem which is slammed and saddles on 25mm set back posts (or pushed back on lesser set backs) and saddle to BB height of 67cm. This gives me a long and low 'flat back' position but about 5/6cm of saddle to bar height.

No disrespect but folk need to get out of this 'my bike must look Pro with a high saddle' mind set. Go see a good fitter and get sized up properly.

I hear what you are saying but moving the saddle back is not a good idea - for me at least. This gives incorrect knee position and consequently knee pain. I have experimented here.
Stem height/angle have also been adjusted, and while I have not slammed the stem (as it means cutting the steerer) I have moved the spacers to soem degree.
Lowering the saddle is also really NOT a good idea - incorrect leg extension.
I am not new to bikes, or setting them up to fit me.
All I am looking for a good starting point frame wise - for the cards that nature has dealt me.

thegreatdivide wrote:

No disrespect but folk need to get out of this 'my bike must look Pro with a high saddle' mind set. Go see a good fitter and get sized up properly.

Let me be clear here, I am NOT looking at a Pro-Tour position, but neither am I looking for a sit-up-and-beg naff setup. All I want is a good Sportive flat back riding position.

meggiedude

DeVlaeminck wrote:

I think a long stem is the way to go, setting your saddle back with short legs is going to stick you behind a standard kops position, ok you may prefer that but if we are talking standard bike fit a long stem makes more sense. I agree with Deedee too 12cm is within normal range.

With manufacturers providing stack and reach figures now it should be relatively easy to find something long and low - off the top of my head PlanetX normally fit that way but beware as someone on another thread found out some lack two sets of bottle cages.

If you are really struggling a long stem with a steep angle on it should help a lot, I'd be very surprised if you can't get a decent fit on most race geometry bikes that way.

Thsi post came in as I was responding to the other chap, but yes, absolutely - I agree, moving the seat back is really not a good idea
Some of the PlanetX bikes look good, as do the Ribbles. Its apity they aren't nearer to me.
I've checked the geometry on all these sites and I annoyingly seem to sit slap bang in between two sizes. So with Planet-X for instance I really need a 50cm frame, not the 48/52 on offer.
I got the Spec, because of the fit, not because of the name. Not that worried what it says on the side of the frame as long as it fits me. Plus Specialized are not exactly the best VFM are they. Would rather try one of the UK based sellers (even if the frames are likely Chinese - not that's that a bad thing)
The one good thing about the Spec stems is you have supplied adjustable shims to set the angle. So I have moved this about a tad as well.

thegreatdivide

KOP's is a myth. It's an antiqued bike fitting method that's now been pretty much disproved.

ddraver

My Genesis Team Zero is a great bike and I can get it to fit with a 100mm stem. The Head Tube is long though

It doesnt crush me nuts too badly

meggiedude

thegreatdivide wrote:

KOP's is a myth. It's an antiqued bike fitting method that's now been pretty much disproved.

Granted that might be the case, but Knee pain is not a myth and moving the seat back will cause me knee pain - guaranteed.

thegreatdivide

No worries, Carry on experimenting, trying to find the best fit and spending more money in the process - we've all done it. But if you want to take the guess work out, have an honest assessment of your flexibility, your body's current capabilities and any possible 'issues' that you might have be it one leg shorter than the other or a foot that falls inwards, then spend £150 on a fit and nail it once and for all.

DeVlaeminck

thegreatdivide wrote:

KOP's is a myth. It's an antiqued bike fitting method that's now been pretty much disproved.

Well I'm not dead set against what you are saying but it'd be good to have a bit more on why it's been disproved as it is still the starting point for most people even though as I said above some people may prefer being further back. Shoving the saddle back would also necessitate the OP lowering the saddle which would be counter to what they are trying to achieve so you'd need a good reason to go that way rather than doing the usual thing which would be fit a longer stem.

As for a bike fit - well it may be worth paying for one but a bike fit is just an opinion - it may be an opinion based on experience but different fitters will come up with different ideal positions and they can't all be right. Unless the OP has a particular issue I'd just look at the stack and reach of bikes based on the position they have already and take it from there.

darkhairedlord

Spending £150 on a fit to nail it once and for all is a myth.

meggiedude

darkhairedlord wrote:

Spending £150 on a fit to nail it once and for all is a myth.

Yep, That's what concerns me. So I go to a local Bike fitter - There's good one in Leamington Spa (BikeDynamics)
I spend my £145, I get a fit and recommendation that is right for me (for my current Bike/shoes) .........but then I have shop for the next bike.
I'm pretty sure that I am not a million miles away wrt seat position/height, stem length/height/angle, and obviously frame size. but this is not going to help much with the next bike really. Especially if I need a quirky stretched out frame that can't be bought off the shelf.

Anyway. looking at the options the Ribble H572 is looking in more and more attractive here, the 50cm size is nigh on the same basic dimensions as my Spesh for Top tube and seat tube.
I even overlayed jpegs of the 2 bikes on Photoshop, lol. Its not an exact science as the frame geometry changes as the sizes vary, but is shows that there is not much difference between the two.
So maybe the Ribble R872 Special Edition Shimano Ultegra 6800 @ £1199, 50cm frame with longer stem is the way forward, unless of course anyone else has a better suggestions

kajjal

I am similar with longer back and recently changed to a new bike with shorter reach bars (over an inch shorter reach than old bikes bars and also shallow drop), apart from that the geometry , stem etc. was very similar to my previous road bike.Strangely I found the riding position a lot better and now cycle comfortably in the drops for long periods.

I found out by going to a shop with the guru fit machine where it simulates various bike models, sizes and components exactly. This was very helpful choosing the right size and setup, and they did the comparison for free. I then setup the bike myself.

meggiedude

Kajjal wrote:

I found out by going to a shop with the guru fit machine where it simulates various bike models, sizes and components exactly. This was very helpful choosing the right size and setup, and they did the comparison for free. I then setup the bike myself.

Ah the Guru Bike fit system. I'd forgotten about that. I think they now have that at the Daventry Leisure Lakes shop - where I got my Spesh from.

Thanks for the reminder. I may try that. I assume they gave you the Guru fit treatment as you bought a bike from them?, otherwise it'll cost you??

ugo.santalucia

darkhairedlord wrote:

20mm shims under the cleats, that should even it up.

You are basically suggesting high heels, aren't you? :-)

meggiedude

ugo.santalucia wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

20mm shims under the cleats, that should even it up.

You are basically suggesting high heels, aren't you? :-)

To be fair - he did say under the cleats. I think he is suggesting this

PTestTeam

meggiedude wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Spending £150 on a fit to nail it once and for all is a myth.

Yep, That's what concerns me. So I go to a local Bike fitter - There's good one in Leamington Spa (BikeDynamics)
I spend my £145, I get a fit and recommendation that is right for me (for my current Bike/shoes) .........but then I have shop for the next bike.
I'm pretty sure that I am not a million miles away wrt seat position/height, stem length/height/angle, and obviously frame size. but this is not going to help much with the next bike really. Especially if I need a quirky stretched out frame that can't be bought off the shelf.

Anyway. looking at the options the Ribble H572 is looking in more and more attractive here, the 50cm size is nigh on the same basic dimensions as my Spesh for Top tube and seat tube.
I even overlayed jpegs of the 2 bikes on Photoshop, lol. Its not an exact science as the frame geometry changes as the sizes vary, but is shows that there is not much difference between the two.
So maybe the Ribble R872 Special Edition Shimano Ultegra 6800 @ £1199, 50cm frame with longer stem is the way forward, unless of course anyone else has a better suggestions

Yep. you could visit a good bike fitter, who will set you up on a jig and find your optimum position. He will then design a frame for you, measurements, geometry etc that also includes sizes for stems etc. Then take this frame design to a custom frame builder. For your budget you could get a very good, lightweight aluminium frame made if you want race performance or you could go for steel.

imposter2.0

meggiedude wrote:

The 54cm Spec (500mm Seat-tube, 548mm Effective Horiz Toptube) is great but is a compromised fit.

Everyone's 'bike fit' is basically just a series of compromises. Not sure why that should surprise you...?

meggiedude

Imposter wrote:

meggiedude wrote:

The 54cm Spec (500mm Seat-tube, 548mm Effective Horiz Toptube) is great but is a compromised fit.

Everyone's 'bike fit' is basically just a series of compromises. Not sure why that should surprise you...?

It doesn't surprise me. Where do I say it does?
All I'm looking for is suggestions on options
Peace.

ugo.santalucia

meggiedude wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Spending £150 on a fit to nail it once and for all is a myth.

Yep, That's what concerns me. So I go to a local Bike fitter - There's good one in Leamington Spa (BikeDynamics)
I spend my £145, I get a fit and recommendation that is right for me (for my current Bike/shoes) .........but then I have shop for the next bike.
I'm pretty sure that I am not a million miles away wrt seat position/height, stem length/height/angle, and obviously frame size. but this is not going to help much with the next bike really. Especially if I need a quirky stretched out frame that can't be bought off the shelf.

Anyway. looking at the options the Ribble H572 is looking in more and more attractive here, the 50cm size is nigh on the same basic dimensions as my Spesh for Top tube and seat tube.
I even overlayed jpegs of the 2 bikes on Photoshop, lol. Its not an exact science as the frame geometry changes as the sizes vary, but is shows that there is not much difference between the two.
So maybe the Ribble R872 Special Edition Shimano Ultegra 6800 @ £1199, 50cm frame with longer stem is the way forward, unless of course anyone else has a better suggestions

It's trigonometry innit?

Once you have the ideal position (whichever way you use to get there), all you need is a bit of trigonometry to find how the various contact points relate to one another. You can then replicate it with any given assembly of bike components including frame & fork, seat tube, saddle, stem, cranks and pedal/cleats. There's enough stuff on the market to cover virtually every weird and wonderful body shape and position on the bike (using a bit of common sense... a 56 frame with a 110 mm stem is better than a 48 with a long steerer and a long stem obviously).
Like everything in bicycles, even your position is represented by a triangle which is unique to you, which connects your inseam, with the palm of your hands and your cleats... three angles and three sides is all you need to know.

darkhairedlord

meggiedude wrote:

ugo.santalucia wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

20mm shims under the cleats, that should even it up.

You are basically suggesting high heels, aren't you? :-)

To be fair - he did say under the cleats. I think he is suggesting this

perfect!

mrb123

PTestTeam wrote:

meggiedude wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Spending £150 on a fit to nail it once and for all is a myth.

Yep, That's what concerns me. So I go to a local Bike fitter - There's good one in Leamington Spa (BikeDynamics)
I spend my £145, I get a fit and recommendation that is right for me (for my current Bike/shoes) .........but then I have shop for the next bike.
I'm pretty sure that I am not a million miles away wrt seat position/height, stem length/height/angle, and obviously frame size. but this is not going to help much with the next bike really. Especially if I need a quirky stretched out frame that can't be bought off the shelf.

Anyway. looking at the options the Ribble H572 is looking in more and more attractive here, the 50cm size is nigh on the same basic dimensions as my Spesh for Top tube and seat tube.
I even overlayed jpegs of the 2 bikes on Photoshop, lol. Its not an exact science as the frame geometry changes as the sizes vary, but is shows that there is not much difference between the two.
So maybe the Ribble R872 Special Edition Shimano Ultegra 6800 @ £1199, 50cm frame with longer stem is the way forward, unless of course anyone else has a better suggestions

Yep. you could visit a good bike fitter, who will set you up on a jig and find your optimum position. He will then design a frame for you, measurements, geometry etc that also includes sizes for stems etc. Then take this frame design to a custom frame builder. For your budget you could get a very good, lightweight aluminium frame made if you want race performance or you could go for steel.

That all sounds eminently sensible to me.

darkhairedlord

more like this..

imposter2.0

meggiedude wrote:

Imposter wrote:

meggiedude wrote:

The 54cm Spec (500mm Seat-tube, 548mm Effective Horiz Toptube) is great but is a compromised fit.

Everyone's 'bike fit' is basically just a series of compromises. Not sure why that should surprise you...?

It doesn't surprise me. Where do I say it does?

Well, er, the bit I put in bold, that's where. Starting with a 'but' implies (to me) there is a drawback with a 'compromised' fit - when every single fit is a compromise, by definition.

PTestTeam

MrB123 wrote:

PTestTeam wrote:

meggiedude wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Spending £150 on a fit to nail it once and for all is a myth.

Yep, That's what concerns me. So I go to a local Bike fitter - There's good one in Leamington Spa (BikeDynamics)
I spend my £145, I get a fit and recommendation that is right for me (for my current Bike/shoes) .........but then I have shop for the next bike.
I'm pretty sure that I am not a million miles away wrt seat position/height, stem length/height/angle, and obviously frame size. but this is not going to help much with the next bike really. Especially if I need a quirky stretched out frame that can't be bought off the shelf.

Anyway. looking at the options the Ribble H572 is looking in more and more attractive here, the 50cm size is nigh on the same basic dimensions as my Spesh for Top tube and seat tube.
I even overlayed jpegs of the 2 bikes on Photoshop, lol. Its not an exact science as the frame geometry changes as the sizes vary, but is shows that there is not much difference between the two.
So maybe the Ribble R872 Special Edition Shimano Ultegra 6800 @ £1199, 50cm frame with longer stem is the way forward, unless of course anyone else has a better suggestions

Yep. you could visit a good bike fitter, who will set you up on a jig and find your optimum position. He will then design a frame for you, measurements, geometry etc that also includes sizes for stems etc. Then take this frame design to a custom frame builder. For your budget you could get a very good, lightweight aluminium frame made if you want race performance or you could go for steel.

That all sounds eminently sensible to me.

The OP could achieve this within his budget. Circa £1,000-£1,200 for a custom built aluminium frame, plus initial fitting. Then swap over the parts from his Specialized

letap73

meggiedude wrote:

darkhairedlord wrote:

Spending £150 on a fit to nail it once and for all is a myth.

Yep, That's what concerns me. So I go to a local Bike fitter - There's good one in Leamington Spa (BikeDynamics)
I spend my £145, I get a fit and recommendation that is right for me (for my current Bike/shoes) .........but then I have shop for the next bike.
I'm pretty sure that I am not a million miles away wrt seat position/height, stem length/height/angle, and obviously frame size. but this is not going to help much with the next bike really. Especially if I need a quirky stretched out frame that can't be bought off the shelf.

Anyway. looking at the options the Ribble H572 is looking in more and more attractive here, the 50cm size is nigh on the same basic dimensions as my Spesh for Top tube and seat tube.
I even overlayed jpegs of the 2 bikes on Photoshop, lol. Its not an exact science as the frame geometry changes as the sizes vary, but is shows that there is not much difference between the two.
So maybe the Ribble R872 Special Edition Shimano Ultegra 6800 @ £1199, 50cm frame with longer stem is the way forward, unless of course anyone else has a better suggestions

That is probably as good as you can get for the price. I don't know about your personal statistics - but based on you stating that you have longer reach as opposed to shorter legs - this suggests you need a a smaller stack to a corresponding reach - the bike below in the 52 has a similar reach to the 54 allez, however, the stack is less. You can also get a free guru bike fit if you commit to buy - it is a journey up the M1 however.

https://www.cycledivision.co.uk/product ... ct-30-2015

kajjal

meggiedude wrote:

Kajjal wrote:

I found out by going to a shop with the guru fit machine where it simulates various bike models, sizes and components exactly. This was very helpful choosing the right size and setup, and they did the comparison for free. I then setup the bike myself.

Ah the Guru Bike fit system. I'd forgotten about that. I think they now have that at the Daventry Leisure Lakes shop - where I got my Spesh from.

Thanks for the reminder. I may try that. I assume they gave you the Guru fit treatment as you bought a bike from them?, otherwise it'll cost you??

Yes, I was between sizes and thought the smaller size would be better for me. All free as I was buying the bike from the shop either way.

bernithebiker

You don't say how tall you are, but I was on a Tarmac 54 (Sworks), with a 120mm stem, -17, to get low (headtube was 140mm).
I've now moved down to the same but in 52, (120 headtube). No longer need the plunging stem, but do need a bit more space, so it's a 130mm.
No spacers on either.
I too have short legs, long body (I'm 175m), and I'm very happy with my current fit.
There is nothing unusual or wrong in having a long stem.

dennisn

meggiedude wrote:

Let me be clear here, I am NOT looking at a Pro-Tour position, but neither am I looking for a sit-up-and-beg naff setup. All I want is a good Sportive flat back riding position.

Now we're getting to the real issue. You are LOOKING to LOOK good out there. Trust me when I say no-one, and I mean no-one, cares if you look good out there. Nor will anyone say that you look good on this or that bike(except the shop selling it to you). Plus no-one is going to compliment your "great position look on your bike". Wouldn't you rather be comfortable?