The next referendum: Secularism

secretsam

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/m ... ales-study

So, in England and Wales, those with "no religion" outnumber Christians.

Should our next referendum be to establish a secular state? I.e. remove all aspects of religion from state matters (they have done this in France)?

singleton

It's not really new though - there's no-way that 43% of the population are Christian - however loosely you define it.

drlodge

I'd like to see religion banned from public affairs full stop. In schools especially. The fact that schools can give a preference to children who's parents turn up to church once in a while is outrageous. My children only got into their preferred schools as their mum is a bit happy clappy and its not right. Mind you the whole admissions systems is f*cked up.

And ban parallel legal systems i.e. Sharia.

Equality to all.

singleton

drlodge wrote:

I'd like to see religion banned from public affairs full stop. In schools especially. The fact that schools can give a preference to children who's parents turn up to church once in a while is outrageous.

But that probably only happens in a church run school - in which case I personally thnk it's fair enough.

pblakeney

Singleton wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I'd like to see religion banned from public affairs full stop. In schools especially. The fact that schools can give a preference to children who's parents turn up to church once in a while is outrageous.

But that probably only happens in a church run school - in which case I personally thnk it's fair enough.

Precisely.
Churches shouldn't be running (indoctoration) schools.

drlodge

Singleton wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I'd like to see religion banned from public affairs full stop. In schools especially. The fact that schools can give a preference to children who's parents turn up to church once in a while is outrageous.

But that probably only happens in a church run school - in which case I personally thnk it's fair enough.

Church run? In what sense? The school is state funded, the teachers salaries are state funded. How is it fair that children should be discriminated against when the tax payer (you and me) are paying for the school?

arthur_scrimshaw

drlodge wrote:

Singleton wrote:

drlodge wrote:

I'd like to see religion banned from public affairs full stop. In schools especially. The fact that schools can give a preference to children who's parents turn up to church once in a while is outrageous.

But that probably only happens in a church run school - in which case I personally thnk it's fair enough.

Church run? In what sense? The school is state funded, the teachers salaries are state funded. How is it fair that children should be discriminated against when the tax payer (you and me) are paying for the school?

Absolutely, the term is Church Aided or assisted although it's never that clear how much 'assistance' the church provides. It's an anachronism that they can pick and choose students on that basis.

surrey_commuter

Start with throwing the Bishops out of the House of Lords - and invite the other inbred toadies to follow them into the street.

mamba80

Was nt Syria a secular state? that ended well.
interesting that France is held up as an example, they have integrated their Muslim population with stunning success.

what the heck is wrong with people expressing their religious beliefs? or calling themselves Christian or wanting their kids in a Church run (and often funded) school?
Tackling it from the wrong direction, Education system is completely under funded, reducing choice and taking more money out of the system isnt going to help.

Garry H

If the church wants to run schools, let them pay for them 100%. They can then teach whatever the fcuk they want and the money can be diverted to those schools that need it most.

DeVlaeminck

mamba80 wrote:

Was nt Syria a secular state? that ended well.
interesting that France is held up as an example, they have integrated their Muslim population with stunning success.

what the heck is wrong with people expressing their religious beliefs? or calling themselves Christian or wanting their kids in a Church run (and often funded) school?
Tackling it from the wrong direction, Education system is completely under funded, reducing choice and taking more money out of the system isnt going to help.

Well what is wrong with it depends what those religious beliefs are. If they are rabidly pro life, anti gay, misogynistic or a myriad of other regressive beliefs there is quite a lot wrong with it.

There are a couple of very good reasons why we shouldn't have religious schools. Firstly it isn't fair that some people have access to state funded educational opportunities not open to others. Secondly, as a report that was in the news a few days ago found, Britain is becoming increasingly segregated along religious and ethnic lines and that religious schools contribute to that.

rick_chasey

Yup.

Pross

If church schools are so bad why do so many parents fake a religious belief to get their kids into one?

I think I've said on here before, I went to Catholic schools for all my education and I don't recognise this religious brainwashing or 'regressive' teaching that some keep referring to. As for the question, to be honest I've never thought of the state being particularly religiously influenced and most of the obvious things seem to be more traditions than anything these days. We're not exactly living in Iran.

mamba80

DeVlaeminck wrote:

mamba80 wrote:

Was nt Syria a secular state? that ended well.
interesting that France is held up as an example, they have integrated their Muslim population with stunning success.

what the heck is wrong with people expressing their religious beliefs? or calling themselves Christian or wanting their kids in a Church run (and often funded) school?
Tackling it from the wrong direction, Education system is completely under funded, reducing choice and taking more money out of the system isnt going to help.

Well what is wrong with it depends what those religious beliefs are. If they are rabidly pro life, anti gay, misogynistic or a myriad of other regressive beliefs there is quite a lot wrong with it.

There are a couple of very good reasons why we shouldn't have religious schools. Firstly it isn't fair that some people have access to state funded educational opportunities not open to others. Secondly, as a report that was in the news a few days ago found, Britain is becoming increasingly segregated along religious and ethnic lines and that religious schools contribute to that.

its not fair that Private schools get a substantial handup by being classed as Charities! state money being used to subsidise the fee's of the privileged..... certainly the religious teaching relatives of mine get in a private school, is way more than my cousin got in his CofE comp.
so, what about grammar schools? they give op to the few that are not open to the many, want to ban them too?

People believe what they like, schools that teach abhorrent views get closed down by Ofsted, as has already happened with some muslim faith schools, but the state cannot dictate what people think.

But the point is that if you banned Church schools, then the funding and running costs the church helps out with, would need replacing by state aid and considering education is already suffering real terms cuts, this extra money would just leave us where we are.

Have to say that picking on CE schools as the no1 priority to help get UK on the road to secularism, smacks of envy.

DeVlaeminck

Yes I would ban private schools let alone take away their charitable status. As for Grammar schools, my instinct is that defining a kid's future at 10 or 11 is wrong but I'm not against a system which pushes the more academically able so long as equal consideration is given to those whose strengths lie elsewhere.

As for the cut in funding from religion - how much does that amount to? Presumably we could stop conteibuting to religion in other ways to balance e ooks, take away their charitable status, stop conteibuting to fixing church roofs or whatever else, I'm pretty sure we could find some religious state funding we can cut to make up any shortfall and if it hurts organised religion all the better.

mamba80

DeVlaeminck wrote:

Yes I would ban private schools let alone take away their charitable status. As for Grammar schools, my instinct is that defining a kid's future at 10 or 11 is wrong but I'm not against a system which pushes the more academically able so long as equal consideration is given to those whose strengths lie elsewhere.

As for the cut in funding from religion - how much does that amount to? Presumably we could stop conteibuting to religion in other ways to balance e ooks, take away their charitable status, stop conteibuting to fixing church roofs or whatever else, I'm pretty sure we could find some religious state funding we can cut to make up any shortfall and if it hurts organised religion all the better.

i d ban Grammar, they take away the brightest and best from an area (and their pushy parents, possibly teachers too) from the local comp, bright pupils will drag up the avg and below kids, given the right resources.
Private schools just take the rich ones!

if we stopped repairing church buildings, they d fall down and take away from our history, some of these buildings date back to Dooms day and beyond, they are often free to enter and provide a lot of cohesion to local (elderly) communities, esp rural ones.
But the Cof E is now so nurtured, i m not really sure why people have a downer on them? its hardly as if they are some sort of Madras exporting young men to fight in Syria or bomb theatres and airports in european capitals........ :roll: not that any western country would allow such establishments within their midst.

drlodge

I think the worst CofE schools do is teach pseudo science, like the universe is only 6,000 years old. I even read in my child's book that we "are not sure of the age of the universe". Well I think we have a fairly good idea!

Each of the different schools mentioned have certain admissions criteria:
- Private schools only allow children who's parents can afford to pay. Nothing wrong or at least illegal in that, however I agree that they shouldn't be allowed charitable status, since then the tax payer is also funding them.
- Grammar schools only allow children that are clever enough. Nothing wrong with that either, as long as those less able are also appropriately supported.
- Religious schools give priority to children who's parents are of a certain religious persuasion. In any other walk of life this would be illegal as its discriminatory. This is why I am so against it.

What schools teach is another matter, I'm more focused on the admissions criteria and at least wanting to see a fair and consistent admissions policy that is not discriminatory. I'm sure people would be aghast if schools gave preference only to children who's parents are both white.

Bobbinogs

mamba80 wrote:

i d ban Grammar, they take away the brightest and best from an area (and their pushy parents, possibly teachers too) from the local comp, bright pupils will drag up the avg and below kids, given the right resources.

I think the problem is that it doesn't actually work like that. I went to a comp and I can honestly say that it wasn't the bright pupils dragging the avg and below kids up...it was generally the avg and below kids dragging the bright kids down. Anyone who did well in class was open to derision and hassle.

I now live in an area where grammar schools are the norm and my children go to decent grammar schools. The focus on 'excellence' at the schools is in a different world to the comp that I went to.

BTW, I was one of the bright kids who was also unruly and dragged everyone down. I blame the mullet and patch pockets ;-)

secretsam

Pross wrote:

I think I've said on here before, I went to Catholic schools for all my education and I don't recognise this religious brainwashing or 'regressive' teaching that some keep referring to

I went to a Catholic primary school, and recognise only too well the religious brainwashing. However, I also recognise that the standard of teaching in what was a pretty deprived area with a very mixed catchment was pretty well excellent.

The education has stayed with me. The religious claptrap has not.

Pross

drlodge wrote:

I think the worst CofE schools do is teach pseudo science, like the universe is only 6,000 years old. I even read in my child's book that we "are not sure of the age of the universe". Well I think we have a fairly good idea!.

I still don't recognise this often quoted issue of how church schools treat the history of the Universe. Evolution was taught as fact in my school. I've certainly never had anyone suggest the earth is only a few thousand years old. We learned about dinosaurs for a start!

drlodge

Pross wrote:

I still don't recognise this often quoted issue of how church schools treat the history of the Universe. Evolution was taught as fact in my school. I've certainly never had anyone suggest the earth is only a few thousand years old. We learned about dinosaurs for a start!

Its not as bad in the UK as it is in the US where more than 40% of Americans believe God created humans in the last 10,000 years. Evolution is a fact in the same way that the earth revolves around the sun, and should be taught as such. That's my point...to teach otherwise is pseudo science and should be stopped.

Part of the problem with people who don't believe these things, is that we can't believe that other people really believe these things. I mean, given all the evidence, how could anyone really believe the earth was created just a few thousand years ago?

mr_goo

There is no place for religion in the education system. If a parent wishes for their child to learn the teachings of a religion it should be done at home and in a place of worship.

If humanity wants to make a quantum leap and progress it needs to move away from all religions. They were only instituted as a method to control the uneducated masses centuries ago and a method of accumalating wealth for the educated pious preachers.
The old religious texts could be compared to such modern masterpieces as a Spiderman comic.

vimfuego

^This^

I'm of the Pastafarian persuasion myself

drlodge

vimfuego wrote:

I'm of the Pastafarian persuasion myself

Is this you then, trying to get this photo on your driving license?

mamba80

drlodge wrote:

Pross wrote:

I still don't recognise this often quoted issue of how church schools treat the history of the Universe. Evolution was taught as fact in my school. I've certainly never had anyone suggest the earth is only a few thousand years old. We learned about dinosaurs for a start!

Its not as bad in the UK as it is in the US where more than 40% of Americans believe God created humans in the last 10,000 years. Evolution is a fact in the same way that the earth revolves around the sun, and should be taught as such. That's my point...to teach otherwise is pseudo science and should be stopped.

Part of the problem with people who don't believe these things, is that we can't believe that other people really believe these things. I mean, given all the evidence, how could anyone really believe the earth was created just a few thousand years ago?

Considering that it is taking several years to find out exactly what happened in the lead up to the Iraq war, i m not sure that human beings have a fxxking clue what did or did not happen 1000s of years ago, let alone millions or even billions of years ago.

As said, C of E or Catholic schools do not teach creationism, the issue with religious schools are the small Muslim ones.

vimfuego

He's way more good looking than me.........

rick_chasey

Pross wrote:

If church schools are so bad why do so many parents fake a religious belief to get their kids into one?

I think I've said on here before, I went to Catholic schools for all my education and I don't recognise this religious brainwashing or 'regressive' teaching that some keep referring to. As for the question, to be honest I've never thought of the state being particularly religiously influenced and most of the obvious things seem to be more traditions than anything these days. We're not exactly living in Iran.

Sure but you didn't come into contact with any kids of other faith in your class did you?

drlodge

Its about time this review happened "Sharia law review to focus on fairness to UK women" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36388560

I would be astounded if the review concluded Sharia Law was fair, given a woman's view is worth half that of a man. Separation of church and state indeed.

pblakeney

drlodge wrote:

Its about time this review happened "Sharia law review to focus on fairness to UK women" http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-36388560

I would be astounded if the review concluded Sharia Law was fair, given a woman's view is worth half that of a man. Separation of church and state indeed.

I could save them time and a shitload of money.
It is not compatible with modern Britain.

Pross

Rick Chasey wrote:

Pross wrote:

If church schools are so bad why do so many parents fake a religious belief to get their kids into one?

I think I've said on here before, I went to Catholic schools for all my education and I don't recognise this religious brainwashing or 'regressive' teaching that some keep referring to. As for the question, to be honest I've never thought of the state being particularly religiously influenced and most of the obvious things seem to be more traditions than anything these days. We're not exactly living in Iran.

Sure but you didn't come into contact with any kids of other faith in your class did you?

Um, yes. The school prioritised applications from Catholic families but then they went to other criteria as that wouldn't fill a school so it was something like people with special needs next and then other faiths. I suspect in a class of 30 there were less than 10 from practising Catholic families, a few more lapsed and then in my class I had Hindu, Seikh and Muslim kids as well as Protestant / non religious. Our RE lessons also covered all faiths (including aethism). I think your comment just shows how little those who criticise faith schools understand what they are like. The above may differ somewhere like Glasgow with big religious divides and sufficient Catholic families to fill the school but I suspect it is the case in most places.

drlodge

Pross wrote:

The school prioritised applications from Catholic families

That's discrimination right there. Outrageous.

Pross wrote:

I think your comment just shows how little those who criticise faith schools understand what they are like.

Er no I don't think so. However I'm focusing on the *admissions* criteria which you admit, is discriminatory.

Pross wrote:

The above may differ somewhere like Glasgow with big religious divides and sufficient Catholic families to fill the school but I suspect it is the case in most places.

It is certainly different in Northern Ireland.