Electric generation

eSykel

Hi people!

I don't really know which forum to post this in so decided to try it here since it is a general question.

I know a lot of cyclists are against e-bikes because it negates the exercise and fitness benefits that you can gain from cycling. However, I wondered how you felt about electric generating bicycles? It is the same as cycling but generates free renewable energy, without much extra effort and while on the move. Would that be something that you could be interested in? Or is it too much tampering with your trusty steed? Let me know your thoughts.

Thanks

Can

imposter2.0

What do you do with the energy, or how would you transfer it, once generated?

drlodge

Are you serious? How much extra energy "without much extra effort" do you think a ride would generate?

Let me see, an average power output might be around 150w. Say an extra 10watts is "generated", on a bike that is now heavier as it has to have a generator/dynamo/alternator and battery attached to it. So not only do I have less energy available to go up that long hill, I have to lug extra lbs around too. To generate 1KW hour of electricity (about 20p worth) would necessitate 100 hours of riding. 0.2p per hour I'd save.

Pointless in the extreme. Did you do the maths? Please don't offer to do an IQ test with Mr Trump, you'll lose.

eSykel

@Imposter - Like charging your mobile phone or Laptop or using the electricity elsewhere when stored in a battery like touring on bicycles or camping.

@drlodge - Yes I am serious, have you not seen the advancements in stationary bicycle generating capabilities? Why are you so closed minded to technological advancement? Your IQ test remark I think is phrased incorrectly. But I may offer to do an IQ test with Mr Trump to boost the score, still no winners or losers.

drlodge

eSykel wrote:

@drlodge - Yes I am serious, have you not seen the advancements in stationary bicycle generating capabilities?

Are we talking about normal road going cycles as implied in your original post, or stationary cycles i.e. turbo trainers as you now suggest? Totally different kettle of fish. I might see the benefit of having a turbo trainer that generated electricity for free, as the entire power output could potentially be used, rather than a few watts on a normal bike.

veronese68

drlodge wrote:

Are we talking about normal road going cycles as implied in your original post, or stationary cycles i.e. turbo trainers as you now suggest? Totally different kettle of fish. I might see the benefit of having a turbo trainer that generated electricity for free, as the entire power output could potentially be used, rather than a few watts on a normal bike.

This.

eSykel

drlodge wrote:

Are we talking about normal road going cycles as implied in your original post, or stationary cycles i.e. turbo trainers as you now suggest? Totally different kettle of fish. I might see the benefit of having a turbo trainer that generated electricity for free, as the entire power output could potentially be used, rather than a few watts on a normal bike.

OK, well I can't divulge too much because of most likely ruining a potential patent application becoming void if the technology is public knowledge. So if you could have a normal road going cycle with similar benefits that have been seen in stationary bikes in terms of electric generation, is it something you would consider purchasing? Obviously you would be limited to generating the capacity of the battery, but that would be the only limit.

drlodge

eSykel wrote:

drlodge wrote:

Are we talking about normal road going cycles as implied in your original post, or stationary cycles i.e. turbo trainers as you now suggest? Totally different kettle of fish. I might see the benefit of having a turbo trainer that generated electricity for free, as the entire power output could potentially be used, rather than a few watts on a normal bike.

OK, well I can't divulge too much because of most likely ruining a potential patent application becoming void if the technology is public knowledge. So if you could have a normal road going cycle with similar benefits that have been seen in stationary bikes in terms of electric generation, is it something you would consider purchasing? Obviously you would be limited to generating the capacity of the battery, but that would be the only limit.

Still clear as mud. Are you suggesting something that bolts on to a normal bike for use while riding on the roads, or an electricity generating turbo trainer? No to the former for reasons in my first post, possibly to the second although I don't find the thought of a turbo trainer appealing, electricity generating or not.

navrig2

I could see some use for a trickle type charge to a bike mounted mobile phone or Garmin type computer for someone who is touring.

I struggle to see there being much interest from anyone commuting or road cycling. Typically commuting doesn't need the top ups as the journeys are short and road cyclists usually strive to keep the weight down.

Still not convinced that the gain will be worth extra weight.

drlodge

Navrig2 wrote:

I could see some use for a trickle type charge to a bike mounted mobile phone or Garmin type computer for someone who is touring.

This I see as being useful, so a dynamo hub that not only powers lights (whatever voltage is needed for that) but provides a 5volt supply for USB charging your phone, Garmin etc.

markhewitt1978

drlodge wrote:

This I see as being useful, so a dynamo hub that not only powers lights (whatever voltage is needed for that) but provides a 5volt supply for USB charging your phone, Garmin etc.

Such items already exist of course so any patent application would hardly be novel.

The idea of a turbo generating power isn't exactly new either, the Tacx Bushido and Neo won't generate power for an external source but they can use power generated from pedalling to power their own electronics.

chris_bass

https://www.vmbvoom.com/pitches/esykel- ... rgy-source

fenix

Mr eSykel - I'm not sure what the point is for a road bike to generate electricity.
Surely every watt that you lose (and us cyclists train long and hard and wear odd kit to make every watt count for us) is a watt that could have been driving the bike forwards ?

Electricity is cheap. Speed on a bike costs - whether it's in aero wheels, frames, helmets. Nobody will want to lose watts so that they could charge their phone or whatever.

The only case I can see is for cyclotourists, maybe. A small market and even then you're just after the ones wild camping or something.

On an indoor exercise bike - well its a nice idea but the power we generate isn't worth collecting, and how many people do you know use exercise bikes ? I'm part of a fitness community and even there it's precious few.

In the general population - close to zero I'd think.

photonic69

I'd be in favour of of an indoor spin bike that produced power enough to drive a small fan to cool me whilst pedalling. Most exercise classes use fans on stand mounts that oscillate (usually no where near where I'm sweating). Having one mounted on the front that I could direct at my hot parts would be great.

We use these: http://www.matrixfitness.com/en/group-t ... door-cycle

My first turbo trainer was a Beto fan thing. Made a lot of noise and a lot of draught but no where near where it was any use. I considered getting some ducting to direct it to my face but I sold it on before it became a reality.

fenix

A fan is meant to use about 120 Watts - so it WOULD be cool if you could generate enough watts from your bike to power that.

I think thats about 2p per hour of power though - so either you'd best do a lot of turbo to make it worthwhile, or just be happy to pay extra for 'green energy'

bernithebiker

Bolt a heavy generator and battery to my bike (2kg?) so that I can save 2p by charging my phone with said battery when I get home? Having invested £200?* in said technology and slowed down my bike ride?

Brilliant! Where do I sign up?




*money never to be seen again

964cup

How is this different to the SON hub dynamo + USB-werk that I have on my Audax bike? Runs my lights at night, charges my Garmin or phone during the day. It will also charge the battery pack for my back-up lights, so I think that is identical to your proposed use case. There are at least three existing dynamo + stabilised 5V-output USB socket devices that I can think of, including one very clever one that replaces your stem top-cap with a USB socket.

964cup

Oh, and it's not free energy, either - about 6.6W of drag, which is 2.64% of my (admittedly feeble) FTP. And (although someone will doubtless correct me) I think the SON Delux is the lowest drag front hub dynamo available. People pay quite significant amounts of money to save 6.6W - think aero wheels, skin suits, aero helmets, ceramic bearings, fancy coated chains etc. So not free energy at all, really.

eSykel

I have read most of the above comments. Most of the negativity is because of drag, weight and electricity is cheap anyway.

So I decided to make it clearer. We are developing a bicycle, nothing you need to bolt on to old bikes, a whole new bike all together. We are designing it to be full carbon fiber (to keep weight down). No it is not going to be a racing bike, but we believe lighter is better too. We are developing Tesla technology to try and make a battery with the most bang for its buck without adding too much weight. As I said the generation part I can't really talk about because of not wanting to ruin potential patents we may file, but that too will add minimal, if any, weight/drag to the cyclist.

I know you are probably sitting there thinking... "This is impossible". But if it wasn't... Would it be something you would be willing to buy for under £1,500 to help make a more sustainable planet by using renewable energy with minimal weight added, if any, compared to your current bike? This is what we want to to do.

We are already in talks with manufacturers and have evaluated all the costs in regard to the above price point.

Chris Bass earlier posted so kindly our link to help make this happen. You don't need to fund us, we are relying on innovation grants but we would appreciate your vote which is free:
https://www.vmbvoom.com/pitches/esykel- ... rgy-source

bernithebiker

eSykel wrote:

As I said the generation part I can't really talk about because of not wanting to ruin potential patents we may file, but that too will add minimal, if any, weight/drag to the cyclist.

A generator that doesn't weigh anything and creates no drag?

This I gotta see!

drlodge

I suggest you read all the comments, not just most of them.

The idea is rubbish. Even if it added no additional weight (which won't be the case), someone like me would have to purchase a dedicated bicycle made by you in favour of all the other [better] bikes available on an already flooded market.

And then there's the real issue - creating electricity WILL create drag. You don't get something for nothing. As I said in my initial post, even generating 10 watts or around 10% of the typical power generated will create quite a bit of drag when we spend most of our budget trying to reduce drag and make cycling "easier" and faster.

I just don't see the selling point. Why would anyone sign up to this? I don't get it.

I'm out.

drlodge

bernithebiker wrote:

eSykel wrote:

As I said the generation part I can't really talk about because of not wanting to ruin potential patents we may file, but that too will add minimal, if any, weight/drag to the cyclist.

A generator that doesn't weigh anything and creates no drag?

This I gotta see!

Its a anti-gravity gravity generator from "back to the future".

Chad_c_Mulligan

Directly from your website

One small cycle for man, one giant leap for man kind.

We believe innovation is best when it is unlimited.

Where is the innovation in your idea? All that is being proposed is a bike, with a dynamo which charges a battery.

It's already been explained by others that

1. The amount of power generated is so small as to be inconsequential

2. Will create drag slowing you down

3. Increase the cost of the bike

4. Increase the weight of the bike

5. Tie the generation and battery system to the bike when there are already systems which can be moved between bikes

6. Has a very limited appeal. Commuters are the target market and they tend to like cheap bikes which don't mind getting dinged up a bit.

Then onto the pitch.

1. There is nothing to indicate that anyone involved in this project has vaguely applicable skills

2. For £25 I can get a T-Shirt with a logo that looks like you ran a competition in a school. Sign me up

This honestly looks more like a desperate attempt to get money which will never result in a product that can be purchased and your defensive attitude and nonsense about patents makes it look even fishier.

We are developing Tesla technology

What does that even mean? Are you working with Tesla, developing for Tesla or have a battery which is what Tesla also have.

fenix

Okkkk - so I did 80 miles on Sunday. THat was about 5 hours on the bike. Maybe averaging about 150 watts an hour ?

So that's 750 Watts. About 12p worth of electricity I think ?

And to generate this electricity I'd have to pay £1500 and my old bike gets scrapped ? How does that save the planet.

Oh I forgot that all my wattage went into powering the bike - so that'd only work if I stayed in my garden and pedalled. Cos the bike isn't going anywhere.

If you've genuinely created something that has no drag and won't use up my precious watts then I think there would be better places for it than as part of a bike ?

slowbike

Basically - the question is - do we want to generate stored electricty whilst out for our ride....

The majority on here will answer no - energy doesn't come for free - so it will cost in terms of leg power and those who answer no will be looking to improve times on segments/courses or just generally "going fast".

There are already dynamos that can be added to any bicycle - used to power lights and possibly charge cycle computers/phones - these are useful as they can be needed there and then.

I get the storage idea - if you've got a dynamo going then being able to store some power for use later (eg when camping) is handy - but if you're doing this then TBH you''ve probably already got a small powerpack and are using a tablet or phone - couple this with solar panel and/or hub dynamo and you're set.

So what are you going to be doing with your energy generation? Charge a laptop? Power the TV (what do they watch whilst you're out charging the battery? )
TBH for that I think you'd be better spending £1500 on solar panels !

drlodge

As above - for generating a small amount of power, a solar panel of some kind will do better, be cheaper and require zero effort!

Chad_c_Mulligan

drlodge wrote:

As above - for generating a small amount of power, a solar panel of some kind will do better, be cheaper and require zero effort!

You could even put it on your house where it could be a sensible size and could hook up to a big battery. Then use that to charge a small battery with enough energy for your cycling needs.

imposter2.0

Chad_c_Mulligan wrote:

What does that even mean? Are you working with Tesla,

Might be difficult, as Tesla died in 1943. Would be great to see some of his ideas come to fruition though...

Chad_c_Mulligan

Imposter wrote:

Might be difficult, as Tesla died in 1943. Would be great to see some of his ideas come to fruition though...

The next 'innovative' idea will be oval chainrings and they'll be working with the reanimated corpse of Stephenson.

darkhairedlord

OK, lets assume the OP actually means to generate during braking, that's the energy that would otherwise be lost to heat.
So, let's be generous and assume the rider has battered it down a hill and has reached 44 mph or 20m/s.
Lets also be generous and say our rider is a bit on the tubby side and has a mass of 90kg and bike of 10kg.
E=1/2mV^2
E=20000 joules
That sounds a lot! but is just 5.5Wh or at 10p per kWh that's 0.055p
Well worth the investment then!

Lets be even more generous and assume they are braking through a long descent of some 500m
E = mgh
E = 490kJ
Thats a lot more but, alas, is still only 0.13kWh so just 1.3p

A grand total of bugger all.
Now, tell me again how this ground breaking perpetual motion machine of your's works again?
I would suggest you buy a calculator real quick or at least find an Engineer before you spend any money/time on this.

964cup

This is just gibberish. First law of thermodynamics. If I ride for 6.5 hours at 205W, measured at the crank (as I did on Sunday), I've generated 1.332kwh - about 17.3p of electricity at 100% conversion (which is impossible in itself). Of course if you converted it all to electricity, I wouldn't have gone anywhere. Now, that happened to be a extremely hilly ride, so I suppose there was "free" energy to be harvested on the descents (although that would, of course, have meant I descended more slowly). It would not be rocket science to fit a hub dynamo system with a sensor so that it only engaged when descending. If we assume that *all* of my output was used in ascending (obviously not true, since there were flatter bits, and I pedal on the descents), then you might be able to harvest say 10% of the potential energy I generated by ascending without slowing me down too much on the way down. So maybe 0.1332Kwh. Or 1.73p. Not a great eco return for 171km across the Chilterns if you ask me.