Sustainable Commuting provision for new commerical buildings?

wolfsbane2k

Hey.

Following a randomish chat, someone mentioned that new commercial buildings, especially "office" buildings have to be built with an appropriate level of support for sustainable commuting - running, cycling etc,, with required shower # and a drying/changing roo, but they couldn't remember where it was defined.

I can't find any reference to it - does anyone know where this might be defined, or as this all been "withdrawn", as per the sustainable homes legislation has as well?

At the moment curiosity driven.

TIA.

W

kurako

I don't know myself but I did buy a frame to put in my garage from this lot and it's quite sturdy and if there is such a document they may have come across it. Customer service is quite helpful.

http://www.bikedocksolutions.com/

rjsterry

I'd start by looking on http://www.planningportal.co.uk for national policy documents, although that tends to be very general to allow local authorities to set their own policies within that framework. Then check the GLA for London-wide requirements and finally your local authority will have all its planning policies online. Be prepared for a lot of very dry reading.

ETA: I think the specifics are most likely to be in the local authority's policy documents.

DrLex

I'm involved in the construction of a couple of small commercial premises ( max. 2 dozen employees and B1/2/8 use rather than A2 office) and the only provision for sustainable commuting has been covered bike stands. I'd have loved to insist on shower and drying rooms.

redvee

Our building has approx 700 people over 3x8 hour shifts, a warehouse and we only have the luxury of showers and covered bike/motorbike sheds. A drying room would be ideal cause when it rains all hanging space in the changing room is taken with wet clothing.

Initialised

I don't think drying facilities are included as that is the biggest stumbling block for cyclists, runners and motorcyclists, I don't care if my commuter gear stinks so long as it's dry before I have to leave.

But a bike/moped/motorbike takes up 2 squared meters of car park/road so if there was a car parking tax, docked from moton's wages we might just see a shift to two wheels.

Most larger places I've worked have a shower and that's where it stops, if anyone can cite a building reg that I can use to ensure we get a drying room as part of the current renovations please link it.

bigmonka

I would have thought that a drying room would work against the building's sustainability rating as its all about pumping heat into a room then extracting it out again. So although the overall company's sustainability may be improved by less car drivers, the construction and operation or the building are made worse - that might be enough of a driver for companies not to include them.

corriebee1

As a commercial property developer and regular cycle commuter I'm probably in a fairly decent place to answer this one!

To the best of my knowledge there is no specific legislation in place to ensure that certain commuter facilities are incorporated into the design of new commercial buildings. There are however a number of places where you can find reference to enhancing the experience and facilities for those who choose not to drive to work, and initiatives designed to encourage people to change their behaviour and start using public transport/cycling/walking.

Every significant commercial building constructed at present will be given a BREEAM rating. BREEAM covers every aspect of a building from the site preparation (demolition materials/waste disposal) all the way through the construction process (recycling of construction timber/local labour strategies/waste reduction measures) and right through to the final occupation of the building (M&E systems, operational activities, renbewable energy provision, building design etc).

In order to get the required percentage points for their prescribed BREEAM rating (dictated at planning stage, although often generic minimum standards are set by local authorities) points must be accumulated throughout the whole process. One of the ways to achieve BREEAM points is to make quality provision for people to commute without cars. Showers, changing facilities, secure cycle parking etc all count. These are often some of the cheaper points to achieve as opposed to solar panels, green roofs etc.

On any major development there is also likely to be a "green travel plan" in place. This will be how the developer or occupier has convinced the planners that they're going to make adequate information and facilities available to allow staff and visitors to be informed and able to make good travel choices. This might include the provision of some of the above facilities or it might be as simple as making staff aware of public transport timetables, lift-sharing opportunities, safe cyling routes etc. The Travel Plan is likely to be available online as part of the planning application and is where the developers will have been making grand statements about how their travel plan will work. Often when it comes to implementing this after the building is built, they're not so hot and this is where you MAY be able to hold the developer/occupier to account.

"Do you remember how you told the planners that you were going to provide XXX thing to make cycling to work easier? How are you getting on with that?" may be a valid question to ask. Or "Have we achieved all the BREEAM points required to satisfy the planners? If not, did you know that quality cycling facilities contribute "easy win" points?

As someone else mentioned, changing rooms and secure bike parking will be a + point. Drying rooms (unless naturally ventilated and making use of excess heat) may not be.

wolfsbane2k

Thanks all for the feedback, looks like what I expected.

Corribee, that's brilliant information form the horses mouth, I'd forgotten the BREEAM rating stuff, despite being up to "The crystal" in the docklands last year for a lecture on sustainability! I hope that helps other users nudge their commercial property developers, even if it doesn't' help me directly at the moment.

Snakebite the 2nd

We had showers at work, probably since the place was built in the 60's.
However, during a refurbishment of the toilets over 10 years ago they were stripped out.

Having asked about reinstatement I was told that they cannot be replaced due to the risk of legionnaires' disease.

God knows how we have survived with the washrooms so far, I feel lucky to be alive!

thistle_

Our local authority used to have planning guidance notes which presumably they could direct people to and say "our guidance says you need to do x,y and z" however they disappeared a few years ago.
The cycling one had some surprisingly useful things in it such as:

• Cycle parking should be located near the entrance, not hidden away around the back' (for security and usefulness) and
• Bike racks should be Sheffield stands cast into concrete - not bolted down because these can be unbolted and the bikes stolen' (happened twice around here that I know of).

Snakebite the 2nd wrote:

We had showers at work, probably since the place was built in the 60's.
However, during a refurbishment of the toilets over 10 years ago they were stripped out.

Having asked about reinstatement I was told that they cannot be replaced due to the risk of legionnaires' disease.

God knows how we have survived with the washrooms so far, I feel lucky to be alive!

I think the standard way to reduce the risk of Legionnaires' is to buy new shower heads ever 6 months.

bigmonka

Legionnaires also relates to water temp, it just needs to be maintained at a high enough temperature to kill it. If they manage in schools then u don't see why an office couldn't!

wolfsbane2k

BigMonka wrote:

Legionnaires also relates to water temp, it just needs to be maintained at a high enough temperature to kill it. If they manage in schools then u don't see why an office couldn't!

Primarily because people can choose hot and cold showers, so from the output of the mixer to the shower head can be below the required required 56 degrees C to kill it.
And based on my experience, showers at schools have no temperature control - they are set to 60* C and only have an on/off.

bigmonka

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

BigMonka wrote:

Legionnaires also relates to water temp, it just needs to be maintained at a high enough temperature to kill it. If they manage in schools then u don't see why an office couldn't!

Primarily because people can choose hot and cold showers, so from the output of the mixer to the shower head can be below the required required 56 degrees C to kill it.
And based on my experience, showers at schools have no temperature control - they are set to 60* C and only have an on/off.

Ah I see, good info.

DrLex

Electric shower unit would side-step the health risks of inadequately heated water tanks. Thought most cases of Legionnaire's are traced to air-conditioning or cooling towers, rather than hot water tanks.

rjsterry

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

BigMonka wrote:

Legionnaires also relates to water temp, it just needs to be maintained at a high enough temperature to kill it. If they manage in schools then u don't see why an office couldn't!

Primarily because people can choose hot and cold showers, so from the output of the mixer to the shower head can be below the required required 56 degrees C to kill it.
And based on my experience, showers at schools have no temperature control - they are set to 60* C and only have an on/off.

Err, 60C would scald you. Building Regs require thermostatic mixers limited to 40C.

wolfsbane2k

rjsterry wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

BigMonka wrote:

Legionnaires also relates to water temp, it just needs to be maintained at a high enough temperature to kill it. If they manage in schools then u don't see why an office couldn't!

Primarily because people can choose hot and cold showers, so from the output of the mixer to the shower head can be below the required required 56 degrees C to kill it.
And based on my experience, showers at schools have no temperature control - they are set to 60* C and only have an on/off.

Err, 60C would scald you. Building Regs require thermostatic mixers limited to 40C.

Oh, whoops, going from memory. So def less than the 56 for killing legionaries

asprilla

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

BigMonka wrote:

Legionnaires also relates to water temp, it just needs to be maintained at a high enough temperature to kill it. If they manage in schools then u don't see why an office couldn't!

Primarily because people can choose hot and cold showers, so from the output of the mixer to the shower head can be below the required required 56 degrees C to kill it.
And based on my experience, showers at schools have no temperature control - they are set to 60* C and only have an on/off.

Err, 60C would scald you. Building Regs require thermostatic mixers limited to 40C.

Oh, whoops, going from memory. So def less than the 56 for killing legionaries

Don't doubt yourself, it's 60c kill legionella

rjsterry

Asprilla wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

rjsterry wrote:

Wolfsbane2k wrote:

BigMonka wrote:

Legionnaires also relates to water temp, it just needs to be maintained at a high enough temperature to kill it. If they manage in schools then u don't see why an office couldn't!

Primarily because people can choose hot and cold showers, so from the output of the mixer to the shower head can be below the required required 56 degrees C to kill it.
And based on my experience, showers at schools have no temperature control - they are set to 60* C and only have an on/off.

Err, 60C would scald you. Building Regs require thermostatic mixers limited to 40C.

Oh, whoops, going from memory. So def less than the 56 for killing legionaries

Don't doubt yourself, it's 60c kill legionella

Yep. But that is for storage, not the temperature as it comes out of the tap.

corriebee1

Whilst the practicalities of what temperature the water comes out at or the likelihood of actually getting any Legionella in your system are one thing, i suspect a lot of companies simply don't like showers etc in the building because it means they have to test them for it regularly. That's a faff and an expense that they quite simply can't be bothered with.

There's lots you can do to prevent it. We advise our occupiers to run cold water through the shower after use and to drop the shower head off the holder after use to avoid standing water in the pipes etc. (I'm not a property management bod so i don't know the full ins and outs!)