hardtail vs full suss

mathematics

A quick one that I think I know the answer to... but here goes anyway.

A friend and I are very closely matched across the trails, uphill downfall, always pretty close, well that was when we both rode hardtails. He recently upgraded to a 140mm full suss. At Dalby he was negligibly quicker uphill, a little quicker downhill once he got to grips with the bike a bit, but what really shocked me was how much quicker than me he was over the flat sections! Is this all a result of having rear suspension? I'm guessing some of this will be down to slightly bigger wheels 26 vs 27.5.

we were both really shocked by the difference, has anyone else found this gulf in performance going from hardball to full suss?

kajjal

As long as the bike suits you a full suspension bike will generally be faster as it smooths out the trail. On smoother trails or especially on road a hardtail can prove to be faster. For me full suspension is like mountain biking in an arm chair so I stick to hardtails to feel the trail more but just use whatever makes you enjoy the trails.

rockmonkeysc

Most likely just the new bike psychological boost.
27.5" wheels make bugger all difference. Suspension will only make you faster over rough ground, whether that's up, down or flat. Geometry makes the biggest difference though.

The Rookie

A full susser can be faster on a chattery trail as the suspension reduces the deflection in the tyre which causes rolling resistance, a larger diameter tyre has the same effect.

I noticed the same effect when I swapped to a full susser, in fact on a frozen rough field one day I was outpacing 29ers as well as the trail was so rough.

supersonic

Was interesting watching the bikes coming down the Steel City track at the weekend. Was a large variety, from full on DH machines, to xc hardtails. It is quite a smooth track though, fast with lots of berms and small rollable doubles. Loads of riders were hanging the back wheel up on the landing - and this is where the rear sus really helped. While the HT rider would be bucked up and often off, the big FS bikes just pretty much flattened it and allowed many riders just to barrel down with little finesse.

The fastest on the day were on shorter travel machines though.

Jonesinamilion

New bike placebo I reckon, it will wear off!

Take him (or her!) on a longer, flatter, faster route and you'll be feeling fresher and finishing faster.

loudog

Definitely noticed a difference when I started using a full suss. More on the climbs than the downs. I was ready to be slaughtered on the climbs by my hardtail counterparts, but in fact the opposite happened! It's not a placebo. The extra traction helps drive you up rocky /rooty sections where the HT bounces and spins out.Te more I use my full suss the more I fall in love with it.

kickaxe

LouDog wrote:

Definitely noticed a difference when I started using a full suss. More on the climbs than the downs. I was ready to be slaughtered on the climbs by my hardtail counterparts, but in fact the opposite happened! It's not a placebo. The extra traction helps drive you up rocky /rooty sections where the HT bounces and spins out.Te more I use my full suss the more I fall in love with it.

I noticed that too, ist really helps when it gets rocky and rooty. Also, the suspension only bobs when I'm standing up and am slamming the pedals.

prawny

I'm faster on the flat on a full suss just because I can sit down and pedal with the seat at full height.

On my hardtail I have to pick my way around stuff to avoid doing myself a mischief.

Briggo

mathematics wrote:

A quick one that I think I know the answer to... but here goes anyway.

A friend and I are very closely matched across the trails, uphill downfall, always pretty close, well that was when we both rode hardtails. He recently upgraded to a 140mm full suss. At Dalby he was negligibly quicker uphill, a little quicker downhill once he got to grips with the bike a bit, but what really shocked me was how much quicker than me he was over the flat sections! Is this all a result of having rear suspension? I'm guessing some of this will be down to slightly bigger wheels 26 vs 27.5.

we were both really shocked by the difference, has anyone else found this gulf in performance going from hardball to full suss?

Just get a full suspension that has a rear shock that you can practically lock out, the Fox DPS Evol on my Trance Advanced does this (much better than the CTD can I had previously) so I get the best of both worlds.

In terms of is a full sus is quicker, you just need to learn to accept that riding over rough terrain, no matter if its up down or flat will be more hard work on the legs and the like on the HT and once you're past that you can be pretty quick.

I do enjoy a blast on the HT now and then.

rockmonkeysc

Locking rear shocks are less efficient than a good pedal platform.
The Cane Creek climb switch closes the low speed compression and rebound dampers. This effectively stops bobbing but still allows the shock to effectively keep the rear wheel in contact with the ground and absorb bumps.

Briggo

RockmonkeySC wrote:

Locking rear shocks are less efficient than a good pedal platform.
The Cane Creek climb switch closes the low speed compression and rebound dampers. This effectively stops bobbing but still allows the shock to effectively keep the rear wheel in contact with the ground and absorb bumps.

And when you're on the road inbetween sections...

wozza_a

This thread has me worried having gone from a full-suss to a hardtail!

I found the full-suss sluggish (Spesh stumpjumper 2008) and on twisty stuff just wouldn't shift direction well enough. So on balance I expect to be faster on the HT.

I'm expecting a harsher ride, but also to be noticeably quicker. Could work out a rather expensive placebo by the sound of it...

Angus Young

Wozza_A wrote:

This thread has me worried having gone from a full-suss to a hardtail!

I found the full-suss sluggish (Spesh stumpjumper 2008) and on twisty stuff just wouldn't shift direction well enough. So on balance I expect to be faster on the HT.

I'm expecting a harsher ride, but also to be noticeably quicker. Could work out a rather expensive placebo by the sound of it...

Sounds like you needed a better full-suss...

rockmonkeysc

Things have moved on a LOT since 2008

supersonic

Slacker, longer, lower. But wider bars and shorter stems to complement them. I get the feeling a lot of manufacturers had all this played out - just incrementally increase it - for sales, but also not to get negative reviews for going too far. Others, however, seem to have suddenly jumped ship to catch up. GT for one so many of their bikes were steep and high. Not always a bad thing, I kinda like that for some technical climbing, but they suddenly shifted with a lot of models, notably the DH bikes.

Obviously there is only so far you can take this. With Mondraker with 'zero' stems on some models, and others as short as physically possibly for a standard stem set up, I can't actually see geometry changing much now. Back to trying to sell nonsense suspension terms I feel.

kajjal

And fatter tyres, wider hubs etc. all things we really need until they reinvent steep angled cross country bikes on 26" wheels with triple chainsets.

rockmonkeysc

It's going to be reverse stems next but they'll go metric with steerer sizes and bar clamp area diameter. Obviously you will need a new frame as well because they'll make the steerer just a touch too big to fit in a current head tube.
Wheel sizes will also go metric and more standards will be created, nothing will change but they will have the prefix "enduro" to increase sales to f**kwits by 254%

alasdairb1

After riding ONLY a hardtail for the past 7 years i've invested in a Yeti ASR5 recently, I am amazed. It is still a 26" but It is so much more rideable on the way up (yeah, that's kinda the point right?). I was surprised about just how much easier it was. for some more technical riding which I've done on my hardtail (torridon/Kirrochtree) I can see why the full susser would be good, but it's just not as fun!

Imo that is..

Angus Young

alasdairb1 wrote:

I can see why the full susser would be good, but it's just not as fun!

You're right, it's not. It's more fun.

schmako

I have just as much fun on my rigid, singlespeed 26er as I do on the Rocky Mountain or Orange.

26er climbs like a beast and obviously has its limits dh, but give me full sus for dh anytime of the week!

But yeah the Rocky Mountain climbs amazingly well too, forks and shock settings in either climb/trail/descend is pretty useful.

And well the Orange is always worth the slog up as its so confidence inspiring downhill.

swod1

so I was out yesterday with a few mates who all ride full suss bikes and I stuck out with hard tail bike.

I'm looking to move over to full suspension but don't really have a lot to spend so do I go for a lower spec bike say a trance that has a decent frame and then add to the bike as things get worn or I break them?

Or is it better to wait and spend more get something even better.

One of the lads had one of them Bossnut bikes from Go Outdoors looked pretty good actually and another had a 650b boardman fs pro.

Angus Young

swod1 wrote:

One of the lads had one of them Bossnut bikes from Go Outdoors looked pretty good actually and another had a 650b boardman fs pro.

Both superb bikes, by all accounts. As long as you can deal with the opprobrium of the brand snobs either may well be all the bike you need.

swod1

Angus Young wrote:

Both superb bikes, by all accounts. As long as you can deal with the opprobrium of the brand snobs either may well be all the bike you need.

Yeah couldn't try them out as were wrong frame sizes, I was in the company of a mixture of bikes, santa cruz, specialized to name a couple, saw a few yetis and trek remedy bikes up there in peaks yesterday.

oxoman wrote:

Trance would be a good idea, upgrade as you go on or just get a Bossnut or something from decathlon. Possibly look out for an Anthem SX 120mm travel at the front in last year's spec or even second hand Trance. Ps agree with Angus.

Well ideally something around 140 travel as I was up in the peak district yesterday and my hardtail was seriously out of its depth (only 120mm travel) and a dropper seat would be beneficial as kept having to move my seat up n down.

Been checking them german brands out as well Radon and Rose.

Angus Young

swod1 wrote:

Been checking them german brands out as well Radon and Rose.

Well, you're certainly looking in all the right laces.

cooldad

Angus Young wrote:

swod1 wrote:

Been checking them german brands out as well Radon and Rose.

Well, you're certainly looking in all the right laces.

You cross posted with hotfrenchlingerie.com again?

MRCMMC

Different bikes suit different conditions just as tires do. I've been XC racing for 26 years, back when there was no choice. What you did was learn to be smooth, smooth is fast. The right bike just makes it faster. If you learn to be smooth & fast on a HT then in the right conditions you will blow the doors off a full-sus only rider when you also ride full-sus.
Learning/practice is fun & free. Get to limit of your current bike before getting your wallet out. I'm racing the NPS this Sunday at Dalby, on a 29er HT. Like the majority, it'll be quicker more of the time.
Most important thing to remember, biggest things are always rider, tires & tyre pressure.
Have fun. :-)

Jswhiteginger

I am looking to buy a new bike and this has interested me. I was looking at a Whyte 905 HT but my local shop can't get a large to suit me. He was then trying to offer me something else. A Foucs spine ltd/or Focus Elite I am now torn as what to buy. My budget is roughly £1500. I usually ride 7 Stanes trails and have done some mountain biking over the years but no expert to say the least.

wozza_a

So no buyer remorse yet - I now ride everything on the HT that I did on the full suss, and it's faster more of the time, although I don't ride anything proper downhill.

I'm also surprised by the 'Save2' seat post. It gives more flex than I expected so takes away a lot of the bumps my previous HTs would have suffered with. And having an instant lock out on the front fork is more useable than I thought.

pigglet

Asking if a full Suss is faster than a HT is not really a relevant question unless you are comparing like with like ie wheel size and weights, tyres etc between the two. I had a well sorted 26er ht that had evolved over a couple of years and was both light and set up to fit me really well. I could keep up with a lot of people on 26 full sussers on most terrain. I went out with a mate I knew to be on a par with me on a ride over the moors on it whilst he was on his 29er ht. My 26er was a much lighter and higher spec bike but I had to work so much harder over the rocky trails to keep with him. He offered me a second hand gt 29er for 400 quid. I bought it and on the next ride was faster than him. My 3 grand 26er with tuned revelations hasn't been out since. The gt 29er with a 150 quid fork is just faster and more comfortable. After that I bought a pivot mach429. Another big jump in speed and comfort over the gt. The biggest performance jump I noticed was in climbing. I've had the pivot 18 months and am now looking for something a bit longer and slacker. I demo'd an ibis Ripley LS on Sunday with carbon hoops and on that on my regular Sunday ride I absolutely smashed my best times over the entire ride, uphill, on the flat and downhill. The geometry is better for sure. The light and wide wheels made a huge difference too. If I rode that ibis against my gt the time difference on my local trails would be huge, no doubt about it. The dw link suspension is amazing for climbing traction, just leave it fully open on everything except tarmac. So for me, a 29er full susser is much faster over everything I ride than a hardtail. Might not be the same story if the full susser I was trying was a 160mm enduro rig though but if you are riding terrain that suits a 160mm enduro rig you'll probably be faster on it than a hardtail! I had a santacruz bullet with 5th element shock years ago when they were hailed as the ultimate all mountain. Do everything bike. Bull, it was pig on everything but extreme techy descents so I went back to a hardtail. No going back now though! 29er full suss is the future...............